Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Clare73

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That really does not address the problem in Calvinism. You want Calvinism to work despite it not aligning with reality or the real world. Yet, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with the real world all the time, and He even accepted an extended real world example from the Canaanite woman.
How did Calvin get into our discussion of Paul's revelation?
 
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How did Calvin get into our discussion of Paul's revelation?

Avoidance of my points is not a way to truly get to the truth of what I have been saying with God's Word. Also, nowhere did I agree to your terms in wanting to talk about Paul's revelation. That is something you wanted to do and you never really drove home your point in defense for a denial of free will in choosing God. I was only addressing those verses that I found pertinent to refute your defense of what falls under the umbrella of Calvinism (i.e. a denial of free will in choosing God).
 
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Clare73

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You don't seem to accept what 1 Peter 1:1-2 says in that God elects according to foreknowledge.
Do you accept the Biblical meaning of foreknowlege stated in Acts 15:18?
Again, you quoted Acts 15:8 as saying, “Known to the Lord for ages is his work.” and yet I did not see any translation that says this. What translation are you using that says this for Acts 15:8? It is not in the approved Calvinist ESV. Did you misquote this verse?
Oops! . . .typo. . .that's where the confusion is! . .should be Acts 15:18.
 
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Agreed. ..

So if you agree, then you cannot discount your feelings if Jesus had feelings. That is what I dislike about Calvinism because it teaches a Vulcan centered type Theology whereby moral feelings are bad.
 
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Clare73

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Perhaps we are not on the same page of Scripture.

Behold the scene in God's Word:

“And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.” (Matthew 15:27-28).

Notice Jesus did not correct the woman, and say, “Only I can make parables!” But Jesus actually commended her faith in being great. So Jesus was impressed that she made a parable along with continuing to trust in Jesus. This extended parable she made upon the Lord's parable are real world examples. She is drawing from real life in relating to spiritual truth just as Jesus had done. So this means we can do the same thing. If this is the case (Which I believe it is), then the house of Calvinism will simply crumble all on it's own (if Scripture like this is to be believed).
Previously addressed.
 
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Clare73

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So if you agree, then you cannot discount your feelings if Jesus had feelings.
That is what I dislike about Calvinism because it teaches a Vulcan centered type Theology whereby moral feelings are bad.
What does Calvinism have to do with our discussion and my references to Paul's teachings?
 
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Do you accept the Biblical meaning of foreknowlege stated in Acts 15:18?

Oops! . . .typo. . .that's where the confusion is! . .should be Acts 15:18.

Not sure what your point is in Acts of the Apostles 15:18? How does that help prove your case that men do not have free will in choosing God or that we are Elected against our free will choice? Where in that verse does it imply these things? Yes, God is aware of all His works from the beginning of the world. So God's foreknowledge is in view of His election according to 1 Peter 1:1-2. Not sure how bringing up Acts of the Apostles 15:18 undoes that somehow.
 
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What does Calvinism have to do with our discussion and my references to Paul's teachings?

Nowhere have you demonstrated that Paul's teachings are in denial of man having free will to choose God. Anyways, the moment you step into the realm of denying man's free will in choosing God, you fall into the camp of Calvinism in some way because that is what they teach. Did you believe in the five points of Calvinism?
 
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Clare73

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Avoidance of my points is not a way to truly get to the truth of what I have been saying with God's Word. Also, nowhere did I agree to your terms in wanting to talk about Paul's revelation. That is something you wanted to do and you never really drove home your point in defense for a denial of free will in choosing God. I was only addressing those verses that I found pertinent to refute your defense of what falls under the umbrella of Calvinism (i.e. a denial of free will in choosing God).
Feel free to address that point I presented, repeated in the following:

The Bible does not teach the" free will" of unregenerate man. Free will is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) asserted by Pelagius, a British monk around 400 AD, on the assumption that the moral responsibility of man requires that man have a free will. Biblically, this is not so.

The Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin (John 8:34; Galatians 3:22; Romans 11:32),
that it is only those whom the Son makes free that are free (John 8:36; cf John 8:32, Romans 6:18, 22, 8:12; Galatians 5:1).
Free will (self-power) was lost in the fall when man's nature became corrupted, enslaving him to sin so that he cannot do the good (Romans 7:18-19, 8:7). Free will (self-power) means the freedom (power) to do the good; i.e., obey God (Mark 12:29-31), to be sinless. Unregenerate man no longer has that power (Romans 5:6, 7:18, 8:7-8; John 15:5), which is the meaning of the depravity of man.

What unregenerate man has is" free agency," the freedom to do what he wishes or desires, to act voluntarily according to his disposition. But with his unregenerate (fallen) nature, his disposition is toward evil; i.e., self-interest in preference to God (Mark 12:29-30; Romans 1:21, 3:10-12, 23). The difference between free will and free agency is not just semantics, it's the difference between being able to obey God and not being able to obey God (Romans 8:7-8). The regenerate man can obey God, not because of self-power (free will), but because of the power of the Holy Spirit who transforms his disposition (Romans 8:9).

The conclusion to this is: there is no conflict in Scripture between the absolute sovereignty of God (Daniel 4:35; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Luke 22:22; Romans 8:29-30, 9:14-29, 11:25-34; Ephesians 1:4-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2) and the free will of man, because the Bible does not teach that man has free will (Romans 3:9-12, 23, 6:6, 17-22, 7:14, 24-25, 8:7).
Man is only a free agent, choosing voluntarily accordng to his disposition, which is corrupt and evil (Genesis 6:5, 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 7:11; John 1:5, 3:19). God exercises his sovereignty over man, not by compelling their acts or wills contrary to their preferences or dispositions (which would be an overriding of their free agency), but by operating through their dispositions (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Psalms 105:25, 106:46; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 36:27; Daniel 1:9; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17), to which their wills freely respond. So that there is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and the free agency of man, because man stll acts voluntarily according to his wishes and desires, he still voluntarily chooses to do what he prefers, which is the meaning of free agency (and what many think is the meaning of "free will;" i.e. the power to make all moral choices).

So the Bible does not teach the ability of unregenerate man to always choose the good (John 8:35), it teaches only the ability of unregenerate man to choose voluntarily (Exodus 25:2; Ezra 7:13), and it teaches that when man voluntarily chooses to do what pleases God (keeping in mind that anything done by God's enemy; i.e., those apart from faith in Jesus Christ, has no ability to please God), it is only because the power of God works it in him (Ezra 1:5; John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 2:14, 15:10; Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 13:21).

philosophical free will -- the Biblie denies such (John 6:65, 8:34)

philosohical free agency = Biblical free will (Exodus 25:2; Ezra 7:13)
 
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Previously addressed.

No. You didn't. You said that the woman made no parable and yet, I have demonstrated straight from Scripture in Matthew 15 that the Canaanite woman did make a parable like Jesus did.
 
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Clare73

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Not sure what your point is in Acts of the Apostles 15:18? How does that help prove your case that men do not have free will in choosing God or that we are Elected against our free will choice? Where in that verse does it imply these things? Yes, God is aware of all His works from the beginning of the world. So God's foreknowledge is in view of His election according to 1 Peter 1:1-2. Not sure how bringing up Acts of the Apostles 15:18 undoes that somehow.
Acts 15:18 is the Biblical definition of "foreknowledge;" i.e., God's foreknowledge is of his works, not of man's works.

Review the record to get it all straight
 
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Acts 15:18 is the Biblical definition of "foreknowledge;" i.e., God's foreknowledge is of his works, not of man's works.

Review the record to get it all straight

So how exactly does this tie in with 1 Peter 1:1-2? How does this work with God the Father electing believers based on His foreknowledge? Do you believe in Unconditional Election?
 
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Clare73

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Nowhere have you demonstrated that Paul's teachings are in denial of man having free will to choose God. Anyways, the moment you step into the realm of denying man's free will in choosing God, you fall into the camp of Calvinism in some way because that is what they teach. Did you believe in the five points of Calvinism?
I'm a Paulist. . .Calvin didn't write Scripture.

Nor am I responsible for whatever "camp" into which Paul's teachings fall.
 
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Acts 15:18 is the Biblical definition of "foreknowledge;" i.e., God's foreknowledge is of his works, not of man's works.

Review the record to get it all straight

Are you reading Calvinistic Unconditional Election into those types of works in Acts 15:18?

Do you ever see God in His Word condemning man for choosing Him and His grace without His special enablement to do so?

Does God's Word ever claim that faith on man's part is a work.
Why did Jesus marvel at the Centurion's great faith if it was something the Father gave to the Centurion? Is not Jesus one with the Father? Why would Jesus be impressed by God's miracles? In other words, it makes more sense that Jesus was impressed by the Centurion's faith that he decided to have, and it was not God forcing the Centurion to have a great faith.
 
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I'm a Paulist. . .Calvin didn't write Scripture.

It is written:
“For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” (1 Corinthians 3:4).

You said:
Nor am I responsible for whatever "camp" into which Paul's teachings fall.

Only a misreading of Romans 9 can lead a person to think Calvinism. No other verses of the Bible really reads like that. Paul brings up election (not the calvinist version but the election in 1 Peter 1:1-2) to make a point on being saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law for the Jews. For in Election, God is able to declare the end from the beginning based on His foreknowledge before they even done anything. This is compared with being saved by God's grace initially and foundationally.

Anyways, seeing Paul's teachings do not agree with Calvinism (of which you appear to be teaching by denying free will and teaching feelings are bad like the Vulcans), I can only assume you need to read Paul's words more closely without the filtered lens of Calvinism getting in the way.
 
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Clare73

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It is written:
“For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” (1 Corinthians 3:4).
I am definitely "of Paul," and not of Apollos, or of Barnabas, or of Matthias, or. . .
Only a misreading of Romans 9 can lead a person to think Calvinism. No other verses of the Bible really reads like that. Paul is election (not the calvinist version but the election in 1 Peter 1:1-2) to make a point on being saved by God's grace for the Jews.
Then it falls to you to present a coherent and Biblical exegesis to that point.
Anyways, seeing Paul's teachings do not agree with Calvinism (of which you appear to be teaching by denying free will and teaching feelings are bad like the Vulcans),
I can only assume you need to read Paul's words more closely without the filtered lens of Calvinism getting in the way.
But assumptions are usually not a good thing, right?
 
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I am definitely "of Paul," and not of Apollos, or of Barnabas, or of Matthias, or. . .

“Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthians 1:13).

You said:
Then it falls to you to present a coherent and Biblical exegesis to that [pint.

In Romans 9, if you were to read the final ending portion of the chapter, it concludes with being saved by God's grace for the Jews and not by the deeds of the Law and the point is not about Calvinistic Election.

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

You said:
But assumptions are not usually a good thing, right?

So you don't believe in any of the 5 points of Calvinism?
 
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Clare73

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No. You didn't. You said that the woman made no parable and yet, I have demonstrated straight from Scripture in Matthew 15 that
the Canaanite woman did make a parable like Jesus did.
Both Jesus and the woman spoke metaphorically, neither spoke a parable.
A parable has a beginning, a middle and an end. It is a story.
 
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