Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
The ability of any person to actually hear, resulting in faith, is due to being enabled by the Word of God which became flesh.

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." (Proverbs 20:12).

Let's give credit where credit is due.

In Romans 10:17: Faith comes by hearing the words of Jesus (Which would also include the words of His apostles because to receive them is to receive Jesus).

Anyways, the context of Romans 10:17 says this:

14 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!” (Romans 10:14-15).

Notice the context. It is not about Unconditional Election, but it is about preaching the gospel. By preaching the gospel, a person is able to hear the Word and have faith. Nothing is mentioned of this secret drawing or regeneration to be able to hear the Word in the context. That is a Calvinistic bias imposed upon the text that does not exist. Verse 14 asks the question: how they shall they hear without a preacher? Verse 14 does not ask the question: How shall they hear without being calvinisticly elected by God?

3 Resurrections · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
play acting for our benefit?

Hardly. God was deadly serious, with the intent of giving a demonstration to all who would hear of this exchange between Himself and Cain. The lesson we are to learn is that Cain being in Adam's fallen line of progeny, when given an opportunity to choose righteousness, he also flunked the "free will / free agency" test - as have we all.

3 Resurrections · Aug 25, 2021

Hi Bible Highlighter,

By your presentation of the process of salvation, you are in effect asking me to believe that a baby can show evidence of life by taking its first breath of air even before it is born. This gets the cart before the horse, so to speak. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.) The Holy Spirit has to proactively stir a person's spirit into a living condition (comparable to a baby's conception) BEFORE that person can take their first breath of responding, enabled faith (comparable to a baby's birth).

We can no more take credit for our spiritual conception by regeneration and resulting spiritual birth than a baby can take credit for its physical conception and physical birth.

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
What makes this any different than say the axe murderer who misquotes the Bible to murder people?
Jim Jones had made many of his people take suicide pills. Yet, he quoted from the Bible.

You seem to me to be too knowedgeable to ask such an unrelated question.

Yet, many shades of Calvinism have made God out to be like an enemy in that He creates lots of life for the specific purpose of torturing and harming that life. This again does not sound like the loving God of the Bible in any sense of the word. This simply sounds like Calvinism.

How did Calvin get into this?
What does Calvin have to do with what Paul clearly presents the NT?

So a person can quote the Bible until the cows come home, but if that Bible has not changed their mind and thinking the right moral way that is good, they can believe and or do horrible atrocities in the name of God and be in great error on the basic things of life (i.e. Basic Morality).
Anyways, as for Romans 9:10-13:
Well, Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.
The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).
Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of salvific nationalism.
Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace). The passage also adds in saying that salvation is by him who calls [upon the name of the Lord Jesus] (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).

This does not address Romans 9:10-13.

Mark Quayle · Aug 25, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for the warning.
But it is the standard dogma that I am attacking, not God.
I trust you know the difference?

Of course I do. And I agree that standard dogma is not without its faults and shortcomings, but the the old guys weren't all fools.

Mark Quayle · Aug 25, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I think the OT is an attempt by an ancient people to explain, "What just happened here?" to the best of their ability. Nothing before Kings and Chronicles is supported by Archeology as I understand it. (The Bible Tells Me So... by Peter Ens) So... how did God deal with them?

Yes, I suppose Universal Redemption would mean everyone, in a sense, is the Elect. But each in turn...

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

"Is everyone in the car"?

Two related principles, nobody escapes either one: In Adam all died, no exceptions. Likewise, and as a result of Adam's sin, there is no other way to be made alive, but IN CHRIST —no exceptions. Those who belong to him are the Elect, clothed in Christ's righteousness. No exceptions. "Friend, how did you get in here without wedding clothes?"

3 Resurrections · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Nope. Jonah said 40 days. Nineveh later had fallen, but it does not match up with the 40 days prophecy by Jonah. It was not like 40 years or something (i.e. Days for years) that Nineveh had fallen. In fact, Jonah’s preaching was what caused the direct impact of the Ninevites repenting.

That's not quite the meaning I intended. Probably sloppy writing on my part. Nahum's prophecy about Nineveh's eventual utter destruction was obviously concerning a separate occasion from Nineveh's case in Jonah's time. God knew in advance that Jonah's earlier prophetic message would be received with responding repentance on the part of the Ninevites, which is one reason why He went to such great lengths to get a reluctant Jonah to submit to his God-given mission.

He also knew that Nineveh would eventually default again into wickedness, which is what Nahum's prophecy about Nineveh's later judgment was related to.

Bible Highlighter said:
2 Thessalonians 2:10 says:
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

For this phrase "MIGHT BE SAVED", I think you are putting a mistaken interpreted construction on that phrase as being only a possibility, instead of a certainty. Try comparing it to this Romans 3:26 verse, where the same phrase is used to imply absolute certainty. "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that He MIGHT BE just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

There is no waffling possibility about whether or not Jesus is both "just" and the "justifier" for the believer. It's a certainty. Just as it would have been a certainty that "receiving the love of the truth" in II thess. 2:10 would have resulted in their salvation - if they had done so, which they had not done.

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

bling said:
If people did not sin would Christ have had to go to the cross?

Christ didn't have to go to the cross, that was 100% divine choice.

What constrained the omnipotent God to reconcile his enemies to himself?

Sinners and God’s/Christ’s Love, caused Christ to go to the cross

Nothing causes God to do anything. . .God is the First Cause, nothing causes him.

and I am a sinner.

Agreed.

Mark Quayle · Aug 25, 2021

The Bible is replete with God's urgings, pleadings, remonstrances, and so on that men CHOOSE to do right. How does that imply more than mere choice?

Choice —yes; and I mean actual, real choice, and that with even eternal consequences. Willed creatures, yes; but 'freewill' (i.e unencumbered, uncaused, non-slavery of the will to sin and to self-determination, or to Christ)? —no.

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
As for Esau: Well, again, God elects based on His foreknowledge according to 1 Peter 1:1-2. This means that God can see what a man is going to do in the future and God can declare the end from the beginning.

Nope. . .that is not what it means.

Foreknowledge is not God looking down the corridors and time and seeing what man is going to do.
God's foreknowledge is of his own work, not man's work:

Acts 15:8 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."

God knows in advance what is going to happen because God has decreed that it shall happen.

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge (decree)."

See Isaiah 48:3, Isaiah 37:26.

But this does not mean God forced Esau to be a certain way or to make Esau bad

, or God did not choose to calvinisticly elect Esau thereby preventing him to be potentially saved.

Right, this is simply about God's election--about how he elects. . .simply according to his pleasure and choice, and according to nothing else.

If you were to read the story of Jacob and Esau, it does not sound like God is forcing Esau to be a certain way but it sounds like Esau was choosing to despise his own birth right by his own free will choice. God knew this free will choice and could declare ahead of time why He did not favor Esau. So before Esau did anything wrong, God was able to foresee his actions. This is a parallel to the point in Romans 9 about how we must need to be initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the Old Law. The Jews wanted to be saved by Law Alone Salvationism by the Old Law that was no more. They needed to first accept God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ, though.

That’s the point of why the election of Jacob and Esau was brought up. God’s election (Which is a declaration by God of seeing a person’s future actions)

That is not what Biblical election is. . .nowhere is it presented in the Bible that God's election is based on anything in the elect or done by th elect. That notion comes from the mind of man.

The only thing that is presented in Scripture is God's election based solely in his choice to do so, and based on nothing else (Romans 9:10-13).

This is what I mean by "taking Scipture at its word." As long as one tries to rationalize to another meaning what is clearly stated in Scripture, one will never correctly understand the Bible.

Saint Steven · Aug 25, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
"Is everyone in the car"?

Two related principles, nobody escapes either one: In Adam all died, no exceptions. Likewise, and as a result of Adam's sin, there is no other way to be made alive, but IN CHRIST —no exceptions. Those who belong to him are the Elect, clothed in Christ's righteousness. No exceptions. "Friend, how did you get in here without wedding clothes?"

It says, "in Adam all" and "in Christ all".
Not, "all in Christ".
Your hopeful exclusionary statement isn't there.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Saint Steven · Aug 25, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
"Is everyone in the car"?

The statement is clearer in this scripture. But I suppose we have been over this before as well.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

Clare73 said:
Nope. . .that is not what it means.

Foreknowledge is not God looking down the corridors and time and seeing what man is going to do.
God's foreknowledge is of his own work, not man's work:
Acts 15:8 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."

God knows what is going to happen because God has decreed that it shall happen.

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge (decree)."

See Isaiah 48:3, Isaiah 37:26.

Right, this is simply about God's election--about how he elects. . .simply according to his pleasure and choice, and according to nothing else.

That is not what Biblical election is. . .nowhere is it presented in the Bible that God's election is based on anything in the elect or done by th elect. That notion comes from the mind of man.

The only thing that is presented in Scripture is God's election based solely in his choice to do so, and based on nothing else (Romans 9:10-13).

This is what I mean by "taking Scipture at its word." As long as one tries to rationalize to another meaning what is clearly stated in Scripture, one will never correctly understand the Bible.

No. 1 Peter 1:1-2 is God’s election.

1 Peter 1:1-2 KJV says:
[1] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, [2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

So God elects based on His foreknowledge and not by some kind of unconditional means like in Calvinism.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
That's not quite the meaning I intended. Probably sloppy writing on my part. Nahum's prophecy about Nineveh's eventual utter destruction was obviously concerning a separate occasion from Nineveh's case in Jonah's time. God knew in advance that Jonah's earlier prophetic message would be received with responding repentance on the part of the Ninevites, which is one reason why He went to such great lengths to get a reluctant Jonah to submit to his God-given mission.

He also knew that Nineveh would eventually default again into wickedness, which is what Nahum's prophecy about Nineveh's later judgment was related to.

For this phrase "MIGHT BE SAVED", I think you are putting a mistaken interpreted construction on that phrase as being only a possibility, instead of a certainty. Try comparing it to this Romans 3:26 verse, where the same phrase is used to imply absolute certainty. "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that He MIGHT BE just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

There is no waffling possibility about whether or not Jesus is both "just" and the "justifier" for the believer. It's a certainty. Just as it would have been a certainty that "receiving the love of the truth" in II thess. 2:10 would have resulted in their salvation - if they had done so, which they had not done.

This is simply not believing the verses I put forth to you. There is nothing I can do to show you otherwise if you don’t accept the words of the verses plainly that I presented to you. It says that those who perish MIGHT BE SAVED. You either believe the Bible in this instance or you don’t believe it. You are also not addressing the verse I shown to you from Jonah, either. If you were to read and believe that verse in Jonah I have shown to you, your point on some far future prophecy being fulfilled would simply be pointless to even bring up.

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

bling said:
Ro. 5: 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

In verse 18 just as “all people” does not mean all conceived humans are justified, the “all people” does not mean all conceived humans are condemned.

Not exactly. . .

The contrasting parallels of Romans 5:8-19 are between all those in/of the one man, the first Adam, and all those in/of the one man, the second Adam, Jesus Chrst (1 Corinthians 15:45).

Just as all those in/of the first Adam were made sinners (v.19) and condemned (v.18),
so all those in/of the second Adam, Jesus Christ, are made righteous (v.19) and justified (v.18).

The meaning of Romans 5:18-19 is: all those in/of the first Adam are condemned by his sin,
just as all those in/of the second Adam are justified by his righteousness, through faith as was Abraham (Romans 4:3).

By Adam and Eve sinning knowledge of tons of ways to sin was given to all mature adults, so they will all sin.
Going back just a few verses we have: 12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world tdoeshrough one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned”
Paul did not say: “because Adam sinned, but all sinned.

But he does say that "the many died (death is due to sin, Romans 6:23) by the trespass of the one man" (5:15); i.e., the many died because of the sin of the one man.

"All sinned" (5:12) is not a repetition of 3:23, where the context there was the law under which every individual Jew was condemned based on his own lawbreaking (Romans 3:20).

The context of 5:12 is that Adam's sin involved the rest of mankind in condemnation (vv. 18-19) and death (v.15)--"the many died by the trespass of the one man" means all were involved in the sin of Adam, it was accounted/imputed to those in/of (the first) Adam,
just as the righteous of Jesus Christ is accounted/imputed to those in/of the second Adam, as
righteousness was also credited/accounted to Abraham because of faith (Genesis 5:16; Romans 4:3).

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

bling said:
I asked you about what you feel.
With God's knowledge He would know what is the very best He could do, so what keeps God from doing the very best?

Uh. . .what I feel?

What's that got to do with God's truth?

What I feel is, "I feel like believing the word of God written, taken at its word,". . .that's what I feel.

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

bling said:
God is discribed as Loving, so
can you truely Love a person and be selfish toward them?

The subject is God's love, not human love.

I'm just not really interested in translating into human notions the Scriptures regarding God's love.
I like them just the way they are, they need no improving for me.

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
To love God. Love without free will is of no value.

Who made that rule?

Where is that in Scripture?

Who said that man does not freely choose to love God?

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Hi Bible Highlighter,

By your presentation of the process of salvation, you are in effect asking me to believe that a baby can show evidence of life by taking its first breath of air even before it is born. This gets the cart before the horse, so to speak. (Sorry for the mixed metaphors.) The Holy Spirit has to proactively stir a person's spirit into a living condition (comparable to a baby's conception) BEFORE that person can take their first breath of responding, enabled faith (comparable to a baby's birth).

We can no more take credit for our spiritual conception by regeneration and resulting spiritual birth than a baby can take credit for its physical conception and physical birth.

What about John the Baptist? He had the Holy Spirit since birth.

Clare73 · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
No. 1 Peter 1:1-2 is God’s election.
1 Peter 1:1-2 KJV says:
[1] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, [2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

So God elects based on His foreknowledge and not by some kind of unconditional means like in Calvinism.

What's Calvin got to do with Paul?

Yes, and his "foreknowledge" means of what he has decreed shall be, not of what man is going to do.

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18)

Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

That's 666 YEARS, folks

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Blood-bought

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Blood-bought

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Blood-bought

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Blood-bought

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