Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Saint Steven said:

I wouldn't. But the standard dogma certainly does. I'm just pointing it out.
Millions were murdered and burned claiming they got what they had coming. Sound familiar? (just change the "m" in millions to a "b")

Saint Steven said: ↑
Did Auschwitz bring glory to Adolf Hitler? And did he not blame the victims as well? Did they get what they had coming from his perspective?

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In your no-doubt well-meant zeal, you are calling God unjust. Be careful.

Mark Quayle said:

He certainly favored and dealt specially, with his chosen people in the Old Testament. In like manner, yes, he is particular in his dealings with those he has chosen as his particular people. They, if in no other way, are given mercy to include forgiveness of sin by Christ's substitution, but also, in many other ways. Scripture is replete with how he does so. Would you have them to be dealt with no differently? Or do you consider absolutely everyone who ever lived or will live to be Elect?

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I think the OT is an attempt by an ancient people to explain, "What just happened here?" to the best of their ability. Nothing before Kings and Chronicles is supported by Archeology as I understand it. (The Bible Tells Me So... by Peter Ens) So... how did God deal with them?

Yes, I suppose Universal Redemption would mean everyone, in a sense, is the Elect. But each in turn...


1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Bible Highlighter said:

I don’t think a Bible should have to give somebody a moral compass.
The Gentiles were able to keep the Law without having it (Romans 2:14).
It’s common basic morality to realize that God does not force some to be saved and others to not be saved because we know by life that love is not forced. If a man forces his love upon a woman that is called rape or a love that is unwanted. A man cannot force a woman to marry him and expect her to love him in return. Love is when two parties agree to love one another.
Amos 3:3 says, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?”

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I don't believe Calvinism is in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.”

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Kinda' like Esau and Jacob (Romans 9:10-13), he did not want to favor Esau?

Don't blame it on Calvin, he didn't write the NT. . .blame it on Paul,
who got his revelation from Jesus Christ, personally (Galatians 2:11-12) in the third heaven,
where he heard things man is not permitted to tell (2 Corinthians 12:1-8).

Mark Quayle said:

In your no-doubt well-meant zeal, you are calling God unjust. Be careful.

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Thanks for the warning.
But it is the standard dogma that I am attacking, not God.
I trust you know the difference?

Clare73 said:

Would that not be according to God's election (Romans 9:11, Romans 11:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10),
the baby's fallen nature being no less fallen and unable to change than that of an adult--the baby rattlesnake being no less a rattlesnake and unable to change than the adult,
he being born an enemy of God (Romans 5:10, Romans 5:18) and by nature (birth) an object of his wrath (Ephesians 2:3)?

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Please don’t tell me you believe aborted babies go to hell. That’s just not right (morally speaking). Children are of the kingdom of God according to Jesus. David said he would see his son again.

Saint Steven said:

Wow. God's wonderful plan for his creation? (with malice and forethought?)
I can't imagine anything more depressing.
What will heaven be like if you know that souls are being tormented in the basement? Will you be next? Why not?

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And by any and all means, God surely doesn't want to depress his enemies (Romans 5:10)
who reject his one and only Son (John 3:18, John 3:36). . .

Saint Steven said:

Thanks for the warning.
But it is the standard dogma that I am attacking, not God.
I trust you know the difference?

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It's the word of God regarding God, it's true, and you are attacking God.

Your assumption that Scripture which is not in agreement with your human rationale is, therefore, not true, is very dangerous for you personally.
You will regret it if you do not repent of it.
A word to the wise. . .

Clare73 said:

Kinda' like Esau and Jacob (Romans 9:10-13), he did not want to favor Esau?

Don't blame it on Calvin, he didn't write the NT. . .blame it on Paul,
who got his revelation from Jesus Christ, personally (Galatians 2:11-12) in the third heaven,
where he heard things man is not permitted to tell (2 Corinthians 12:1-8).

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What makes this any different than say the axe murderer who misquotes the Bible to murder people?
Jim Jones had made many of his people take suicide pills. Yet, he quoted from the Bible.
Yet, many shades of Calvinism have made God out to be like an enemy in that He creates lots of life for the specific purpose of torturing and harming that life. This again does not sound like the loving God of the Bible in any sense of the word. This simply sounds like Calvinism.

So a person can quote the Bible until the cows come home, but if that Bible has not changed their mind and thinking the right moral way that is good, they can believe and or do horrible atrocities in the name of God and be in great error on the basic things of life (i.e. Basic Morality).

Anyways, as for Romans 9:10-13:

Well, Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.
The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).

Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of salvific nationalism.
Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace). The passage also adds in saying that salvation is by him who calls [upon the name of the Lord Jesus] (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).
Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.
Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelite's perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”
When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil them against unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).

Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

“...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).

So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.
Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

Bible Highlighter said:

Please don’t tell me you believe aborted babies go to hell.

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I didn't say that, did I?

That’s just not right (morally speaking).

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Check out Romans 9:18-21.

Children are of the kingdom of God according to Jesus

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But according to Jesus we "must become like little children," not be little children (Matthew 18:3).
According to Jesus, "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these" (Matthew 19:14),
not necessarily to these.

Jesus is saying that those of the kingdom have child-like believing hearts dependant on their Father, not that they are necessarily children.

And according to the NT, it is the elect who are the kingdom of God, no one else is, just as
it was the descendants of Jacob who were the people of God, the descendants of Esau and the rest of mankind were not.

David said he would see his son again.

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Then David was given to know that he was elect.

Clare73 said:

Kinda' like Esau and Jacob (Romans 9:10-13), he did not want to favor Esau?

Don't blame it on Calvin, he didn't write the NT. . .blame it on Paul,
who got his revelation from Jesus Christ, personally (Galatians 2:11-12) in the third heaven,
where he heard things man is not permitted to tell (2 Corinthians 12:1-8).

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As for Esau: Well, again, God elects based on His foreknowledge according to 1 Peter 1:1-2. This means that God can see what a man is going to do in the future and God can declare the end from the beginning. But this does not mean God forced Esau to be a certain way or to make Esau bad, or God did not choose to calvinisticly elect Esau thereby preventing him to be potentially saved. If you were to read the story of Jacob and Esau, it does not sound like God is forcing Esau to be a certain way but it sounds like Esau was choosing to despise his own birth right by his own free will choice. God knew this free will choice and could declare ahead of time why He did not favor Esau. So before Esau did anything wrong, God was able to foresee his actions. This is a parallel to the point in Romans 9 about how we must need to be initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the Old Law. The Jews wanted to be saved by Law Alone Salvationism by the Old Law that was no more. They needed to first accept God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ, though. That’s the point of why the election of Jacob and Esau was brought up. God’s election (Which is a declaration by God of seeing a person’s future actions) is not based on anything they did yet just as God’s grace is not based solely on anything we did. We must merely receive His grace by faith (to be initially and foundationally saved).

Clare73 said:

Then you don't believe Romans 5:18.

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Ro. 5: 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

In verse 18 just as “all people” does not mean all conceived humans are justified, the “all people” does not mean all conceived humans are condemned.

By Adam and Eve sinning knowledge of tons of ways to sin was given to all mature adults, so they will all sin.

Going back just a few verses we have: 12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned”

Paul did not say: “because Adam sinned, but all sinned.

3 Resurrections said:

To give to all those hearing of this conversation a clear view of what happens when Divinity directly reasons with and offers the option of choice to a fallen creature. Inevitably, the fallen creature when given that option will eventually default to wickedness, since their fallen nature is predisposed to do so.

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So God was not really concerned with trying to reason with Cain, and He was just play acting for our benefit? Yeah, I am not buying that one. That sounds like one is simply not reading and believing the text at face value.

You said:

The Ninevites did repent on that one occasion of Jonah's sermon to them, to provide an example of God extending mercy to them. But Nineveh did not persist in that state of repentance, and eventually fell, resulting in the city's utter destruction, as prophesied by the book of Nahum.

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Nope. Jonah said 40 days. Nineveh later had fallen, but it does not match up with the 40 days prophecy by Jonah. It was not like 40 years or something (i.e. Days for years) that Nineveh had fallen. In fact, Jonah’s preaching was what caused the direct impact of the Ninevites repenting. Plus, it says this:

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented [turned back] of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.” (Jonah 3:10).

Note: The words within brackets in blue is my commentary to the text.

Okay. So the point here in Jonah 3:10 is that God turned back from the evil (His judgment or wrath) in that He said He would do unto them and He did it not. So Jonah preached that they would be overthrown, but God turned back from this evil and He did it not. That’s what it is saying. To ignore this is to cling to Calvinism at the expense of the Bible.

You said:

I don't "get around it". I accept it; that God makes good on His promises that choosing to reject Him causes one to perish utterly, unless He supernaturally intervenes and does a work within them that changes those suicidal desires.

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2 Thessalonians 2:10 says:
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

What does this verse above say?
Does it say they perish because God did not Elect them to salvation? No.
It says they perish because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH.
It also says that they MIGHT BE SAVED.
There is no MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism.
So again, if we are to read and believe the Bible plainly, Calvinism crumbles all on it’s own.

Clare73 said:

Who gets to determine what of that which God does is not the best?

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I asked you about what you feel.
With God's knowledge He would know what is the very best He could do, so what keeps God from doing the very best?

Clare73 said:

We can describe God's love anyway we want to describe it, using whatever paltry terms suit us.

If it is to be Biblical, it must be the way Scrpture describes it.
Scripture never uses "unselfish" in terms of God.
In fact, Scripture never uses "unselfish" at all.
That's all I need to know to conform my language to Scripture.

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God is discribed as Loving, so can you truely Love a person and be selfish toward them?

Clare73 said:

This is contra-Biblical.

Do you not know that Christ came to die? (Matthew 20:28), that we did not put him up there and can take no credit for assisting, or in any way being a part of his atoning work, it was completely the decision and work of God, and there was no way it was not going to happen?

Standing in for what? I can take no credit for any of it?

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If people did not sin would Christ have had to go to the cross?

Sinners and God’s/Christ’s Love, caused Christ to go to the cross and I am a sinner.

JIMINZ said:

What is this earthly objective mankind needs Free Will in order to fulfill

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To love God. Love without free will is of no value.

3 Resurrections said:

The ability of any person to actually hear, resulting in faith, is due to being enabled by the Word of God which became flesh.

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." (Proverbs 20:12).

Let's give credit where credit is due.

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Well, God gave us His Word. We cannot take credit for that. God also can draw or illuminate truth to a person, but that person has to accept what the Word says of their own free will choice. Otherwise God would never get upset at sin. For sin is disobedience to the commandment or Law (1 John 3:4). For if God elected some people based on no reason and by default, He non-elected others to be damned, that would make the Bible nonsensical at every turn when we read it. What about the Judgment? Why is God judging people? In Calvinism the Judgment does not make sense because it is God who put them into the Kingdom and who chose to damn them. So in Calvinism: The Judgment is an illusion or a farce. Nobody really is being condemned by what they did but God is to blame.