Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

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Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

Isaiah 55:9 tells us, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." So what would naturally seem to us to be a subject that we should esteem and cherish (like our option to choose), God more than likely has different thoughts than ours about it.

I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

Free will handed to fallen creatures is a double-edged sword that we wield to our own destruction. It would seem that heaven, as the final purified state for us, will include the removal of all impulses to choose anything other than God's perfect will. Anything less than being totally submerged in God's will would be to live precariously at risk for another fall into sin. To be thus exposed to the possibility of another fall would not be a restful state to remain in for all eternity.

Humanity has devised pejorative terms for such a perfected state; terms such as "mindless robot", "slave", "the Borg mentality", etc.. Christ Himself was not averse to claiming total subjection to the Father's will, saying "I do always those things that please him", and "Not my will, but thine be done". Yet we do not despise Christ for voicing this total merging of His own will with that of the Father. Why should this be something repugnant when it comes to the idea of our having free will stripped from us in the final perfected state?

So why did God reason with Cain in doing good vs. evil? (Genesis 4).
Why did God turn back from the Wrath or judgment He was going to originally bring upon the Ninevites by their forsaking their evil ways? Jonah predicted they would be overthrown in 40 days. (Jonah 3).
2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. How do you get around this verse?
Jesus basically tells others to repent or perish in Luke 13:3. In Calvinism: The Elect are never really in any real danger of perishing, and the Non-Elect cannot repent.
 
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fhansen

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That is so short of Biblical.

You cannot persuade fallen human nature to the things of God (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
Man must be reborn of the Holy Spirit, raised from spiritual death into eternal life before that can happen.
And then the "persuading" is God working in you both to will and to act." (Philippians 2:13).
It's not either/or, but both/and. That's why we're here, in order for this life in exile from God together with grace issuing from Him to do their work on and in us, instead of our already being in either heaven or hell. This life, with its hardships, pain, joys, revelation, and grace has a very real purpose-to help us make the right choices, for good over evil, life over death, God over no God.
 
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Saint Steven

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... He has given us many standards... like esteeming others better than ourselves, is part his way for us to think concerning ourselves and each other. ...
Why doesn't he keep his own standards? Would he send himself to hell?
 
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Saint Steven

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He is not us. He is not even like us. And his love is not like ours.
His love is not like ours... but the standard dogma indicates it is not even as good as ours. Even our prisons are called correctional institutions. Sentences have both an end and a purpose.
 
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Clare73

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Part of the reason Christ came to earth was to help us understand God’s Love, but I will agree that trying to describe that Love in a few words is not possible. It includes being unselfish like Christ and this Love in humans would include gratitude, but be much more.

How big of a part did you personally play in the crucifixion of Christ?
This is contra-Biblical.

Do you not know that Christ came to die? (Matthew 20:28), that we did not put him up there and can take no credit for assisting, or in any way being a part of his atoning work, it was completely the decision and work of God, and there was no way it was not going to happen?

Who at the cross is standing in for you?
Standing in for what? I can take no credit for any of it?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Sole purposes matter not when viewed by your implied outcome. What difference does other purposes, like "demonstrating God's glory", make when the "lost" are destined before the creation to be spiritually dead and exiled for eternity? Do you suppose that those in torment will feel some level of fulfillment and joy in their "place of service"? Be it all so ignoble. Will the pot-shards praise their creator for his goodness to them? And would you declare this situation a strawman when I lift the carpet and call you out for your sweeping it there?
Now THIS is amazing. It demonstrates how your emotions drive you past the obvious Scriptures, to result in your theology. It matters because this is not about them, but about God. Frankly, at the point in which they are in torment in hell, why would anyone expect —no, why would anyone care— that they feel fulfillment?

In spite of your analogy's clever poetic feel, it holds no resemblance to the fact. If it demonstrated God's glory, I see no reason he would not be more than justified to put every last one of his creatures to perdition. (No, I did not say that would demonstrate God's glory). When your 'shards' are put to spiritual destruction, they will not be possessed of any redeeming qualities. They will be what is left of the husk that is really them, when God removes his graces from them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don't mean to be picky, but where does it say that Adam was tempted?

1Ti_2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

It says that Adam was not even in the transgression, so what then was His Sin?

Adam was told to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Adam did eat, he subsequently died both Spiritually, and Physically.

Was Adams death because of disobedience to God, or was it because the Tree had death residing within the fruit which God had said would cause him to die?

And oh, man never had free will, especially the way we believe it to be.

Adam was created in the Image and Likeness of God, but he was a lesser because God said "do not eat"

An equal cannot Command an equal.

Adam was a servant, God placed him in the Garden to dress it and keep it, does not sound like someone who possessed free will to say "NO" I want to be an Engineer.

What is your definition of free will?
 
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Why do you call the sinner a victim? Sin is against GOD. God did not sin against the sinner.
If a two-day old baby died in surgery to save its life, where would that soul spend eternity? What would be the just punishment for sin?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Correct me if I misunderstand you, but you seem to be saying that the "saved" are worthy to God, and the "lost" are worthless. As if God values (or devalues) one group over the other.
He certainly favored and dealt specially, with his chosen people in the Old Testament. In like manner, yes, he is particular in his dealings with those he has chosen as his particular people. They, if in no other way, are given mercy to include forgiveness of sin by Christ's substitution, but also, in many other ways. Scripture is replete with how he does so. Would you have them to be dealt with no differently? Or do you consider absolutely everyone who ever lived or will live to be Elect?
 
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Clare73

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His love is not like ours... but the standard dogma indicates it is not even as good as ours. Even our prisons are called correctional institutions. Sentences have both an end and a purpose.
And by all means, God must be judged by human standards.
 
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Saint Steven

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You would compare God to Hitler? Yikes!
I wouldn't. But the standard dogma certainly does. I'm just pointing it out.
Millions were murdered and burned claiming they got what they had coming. Sound familiar? (just change the "m" in millions to a "b")

Saint Steven said:
Did Auschwitz bring glory to Adolf Hitler? And did he not blame the victims as well? Did they get what they had coming from his perspective?
 
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Why doesn't he keep his own standards? Would he send himself to hell?

Actually, yes, He did. For three days and three nights. As in "Thou shalt not leave my soul in Hell, neither shalt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Hell (Hades - the grave) is NOT the "Lake of Fire" which was a local, temporal phenomenon in AD 70 Jerusalem when the city and nation was dying its "second death", similar to its first death under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC.
 
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Frankly, at the point in which they are in torment in hell, why would anyone expect —no, why would anyone care— that they feel fulfillment?
Why would anyone care?
That doesn't sound a bit calloused to you?
Aren't we talking about conscious human souls ablaze with no hope of escape?
And frankly, a soul that could have just as easily been you or I.
(had we not been "predestined" for otherwise by no choice of our own)
 
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I don’t think a Bible should have to give somebody a moral compass.
The Gentiles were able to keep the Law without having it (Romans 2:14).
It’s common basic morality to realize that God does not force some to be saved and others to not be saved because we know by life that love is not forced. If a man forces his love upon a woman that is called rape or a love that is unwanted. A man cannot force a woman to marry him and expect her to love him in return. Love is when two parties agree to love one another.

Amos 3:3 says, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?”

I don't believe Calvinism is in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.”

Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (because it is sick) whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it (When the animal has no control over it's pooping function).

That's kind of how I see Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, God is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So God is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and God has chosen this only path for them. God wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible.
 
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Saint Steven

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... When your 'shards' are put to spiritual destruction, they will not be possessed of any redeeming qualities. They will be what is left of the husk that is really them, when God removes his graces from them.
Wow. God's wonderful plan for his creation? (with malice and forethought?)
I can't imagine anything more depressing.

What will heaven be like if you know that souls are being tormented in the basement? Will you be next? Why not?
 
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Clare73

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If a two-day old baby died in surgery to save its life,
where would that soul spend eternity? What would be the just punishment for sin?
Would that not be according to God's election (Romans 9:11, Romans 11:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10),
the baby's fallen nature being no less fallen, an enemy of God (Romans 5:10) and unable to change than that of an adult--the baby rattlesnake being no less a rattlesnake, an enemy of man, and unable to change than the adult,
he being born an enemy of God (Romans 5:10, Romans 5:18) and by nature (birth) an object of his wrath (Ephesians 2:3)?
 
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If you deny man’s free will choice in choosing God: What do you do with the following verses?

James 4:8 (NKJV)
“Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.”

Jeremiah 29:13
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

Isaiah 1:18:
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Romans 10:17:
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21:
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."
 
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