Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,930
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,622.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yep, most likely.

Unfortunately, my own father thought that this was actually praiseworthy of Adam to knowingly sacrifice His relationship with God for his relationship with Eve. The church he once attended taught this same thing. ??!!!!!! Amazing, that he would think plunging the entire race of humanity into a fallen state was a laudable demonstration of supreme, unselfish affection for his wife. My father apparently did not read Jesus's teaching about the ranking of familial relationships; that "he that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me" (Matt. 10:37). That goes for son or daughter - or husband or wife also.
It's never praiseworthy to disobey a command specifically to oneself from God.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,158
1,805
✟794,647.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
bling said:
Are you saying man does not have an objective for spending time here on earth and it is really just God's objective for some?

Mark Quayle said:
No



Man always naturally sets himself an objective, even if it is just momentary pleasure or idleness or self-justification.

Man's fallen objective is self-important, as far as his motivations go. The regenerated elect's objective is self-interested, of course, but better it is also intent on God's desires. At least, it should be, and eventually always returns to that.

But my point is in the fact that man's motivations are not what reign sovereign. They only fulfill God's sovereign plan. Both God's command and his sovereign plan for his elect are where their motivations take them, sooner or later —the plan always, the obedience usually.

In the ideal, the objective of the redeemed —however ignorantly so— is God's glory, and the expectation/ pursuit of knowing God as he is/ being with God. (By "ignorant", I mean that we don't really even know the meaning or quality of it, or maybe it's simply that it doesn't fit into human words, but our hearts have some apprehension to it, since our hearts are inhabited by the very Spirit of God.)

Pretty much all my thinking includes the notion that we are nothing of any worth or ability/integrity apart from Christ. (This is a separate (though related) notion from the doctrine of Total Depravity.) We redeemed should understand that our objective is only Christ's in the end, but being Christ's objective, it is ours. Christ's first, then ours as a result. Cause and effect. This is not mere cooperation, as though we had something to add to the effort that God has not done on his own.

Objective: just today I found myself nearly weeping in thanks to the Lord for another temptation put behind me. I chose, yes, yet not I, but Christ in me. It is not Christ who owes anyone thanks for turning from sin and following him. Our objective is Christ.
You say: “The regenerated elect's objective is self-interested” which would suggest Christians are doing stuff to get something for themselves. But just suppose when you decided just to humbly accept God’s undeserving charity for selfish reasons, God showers you with unbelievable wonderful gifts to the point there was nothing more to be given, with the exception of not going to heaven right away, but you have an irrevocable deed/birthright to heaven. There is nothing more to get and nothing more you can do to get more. The only “motive” you have to do good stuff is out of a huge gratitude type Love (Godly type Love). You help God’s children and potential children out of the this compelling “Love”.

This Godly type Love is the only Love at the Love Feast in heaven, so people desiring to be “loved” for how they want others to perceive them to be, would not be happy around an unconditional unselfish Love found in heaven.

God and Christ Love all people on earth and we show our Love for them by Loving others.

The glory of the Prodigal son’s father is seen in the father’s steadfast, sacrificial, selfless, unconditional Love, if the young son returns or not.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What about a dead human?
I think Adolf Hitler had that one covered.

Saint Steven said:
It seems to me that any thinking human knows that incinerating another living human is not love. Even if you were brainwashed from the earliest age to believe it is love. But here we are... Go ahead and blame the victims. That would be the obvious reply, right?
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,158
1,805
✟794,647.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And your definition of God's perfect love and of unselfishness is totally assumptive human reasoning and without Biblical support.
Wow!
God allowed His son, whom he Loved beyond words, to go to the cross, which was a huge sacrificial Love, to help those who hated Him. Would anyone give up more to help those totally undeserving of anything? Can you come up with some greater unselfishness?
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
62
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟24,406.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hmmm, we are told that spiritually, mankind is not just "marred" in spirit but "DEAD in trespasses and sins". Our spirits by nature are already dead from conception forward. They don't need God to destroy them - they need the Spirit of God to RESURRECT them to a living state in order for us to be enabled to respond in faith. "And you hath He QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins." Once God chooses to start that process, He will never fail to bring the entire salvation process to completion in our final glorified, eternal state.

Dear 3 Resurrections,
Yes, mankind is born spiritually "dead", but that means we do not have a relationship with God. Adam's sin broke off our relationship with God and that "death" was passed down to all his offspring:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

If our spirit were dead, we would not be physically alive. Spirit + body = a living soul. But because our spirit is alive and marred, we quickly develop a carnal nature and our carnal nature is what causes us to sin. Sin is the source of death (loss of our relationship with God).

Once we physically die, our spirit returns to God and our body returns to dust.

Ecc 3:18-21 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts: even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Because of Christ's work on the cross, He earned the power to resurrect us from the grave. For those who have been saved, they continue to have the Spirit of God which they received at the time of the Latter Rain. For those who are not saved, they will receive the same marred spirit.

You said:
"And you hath He QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins."

Again, this is speaking about our relationship with God and not our actual spirit that returns to God upon our physical death.

You said:
Once God chooses to start that process, He will never fail to bring the entire salvation process to completion in our final glorified, eternal state.

Man's salvation requires the Early and Latter Rain. After receiving the Early Rain we are left spiritually blind and cannot know Christ. Because of our blindness, Satan quickly deceives us into approaching Christ by "works" mixed with "faith". This is the sin that leads to death (we lose our relationship with God, no longer saved). Christ said that we can't serve two masters. Our salvation is solely based on faith. When we depart from that true pathway to salvation, we spiritually die and are "made worse than before". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the "Man of Sin". All Early Rain believers will remain in this fallen away condition until Christ comes to then a second time with the Latter Rain. However, in this age, Christ will only come a second time to those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. All others will die in their sins.

The Nation of Israel "typed" this portion of the pathway we all must follow when they tried to enter the Promised Land (salvation). Only Joshua and Caleb (types of the Elect) live through their time in the wilderness (place where Satan dwells) to cross the Jordan River (type of the Latter Rain) into the Promised Land (salvation). All others died.

Once a fallen away believer receives the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), they are born again and Christ's judgment destroys their old spiritual condition. It is replaced with the Holy Spirit. This is the start of the path that leads to the Narrow Gate to life and glorification. A chosen believer travels this path based solely on faith. Those who travel the wide path, travel it based on a mixture of "works" and faith. The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common reason why Early Rain believers mix "works" with faith.

Once a believer receives the Latter Rain, Christ will complete the salvation process within them as you stated.

Joe
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So you think God programmed her to respond to satan in this way, without her deciding?

Putting words into my mouth will not help your point of view on the matter, that is of course if you actually have one.

She was not programmed to do anything as you say, she was INNOCENT (naive) the Serpent was subtle, and lied to her.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,930
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,622.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You say: “The regenerated elect's objective is self-interested” which would suggest Christians are doing stuff to get something for themselves. But just suppose when you decided just to humbly accept God’s undeserving charity for selfish reasons, God showers you with unbelievable wonderful gifts to the point there was nothing more to be given, with the exception of not going to heaven right away, but you have an irrevocable deed/birthright to heaven. There is nothing more to get and nothing more you can do to get more.
The only “motive” you have to do good stuff is out of a huge gratitude type Love (Godly type Love).
God's love is not about gratitude for anything.
And God does not love us for the sake of our gratitude.
God loves us for the sake of our loving him, more and more deeply as we spiritually mature.
Our response to his love and gifts should be deeper love to him.
You help God’s children and potential children out of the this compelling “Love”.

This Godly type Love is the only Love at the Love Feast in heaven, so
people desiring to be “loved” for how they want others to perceive them to be, would not be happy around an unconditional unselfish Love found in heaven.
They wouldn't be in heaven in the first place, just as all the unrepentant would not be,
because they would not be born again.
God and Christ Love all people on earth and we show our Love for them by Loving others.

The glory of the Prodigal son’s father is seen in the father’s steadfast, sacrificial, selfless, unconditional Love, if the young son returns or not.
The parable of the prodigal son is about God's people (sons), and a good analogy of the
Christ-murdering Jews (Acts 7:52) who sqandered their divine inheritance as God's people,
but would be forgiven their most atrocious crime if they "came to their senses," repented and sought the forgivensss of God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I explained the “objective” in post 4.

Briefly:

We are here on earth to become like God Himself in that we have Godly type Love, since God is Love.

Godly type Love is not instinctive nor just a knee jerk reaction. If it were instinctive, it would be a robotic programmed type “love” which is not a Godly type Love. Also, Godly type Love cannot just be forced on a person since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun, which would not be “Loving on God’s part and the “love” obtained would not be Godly type Love.

Godly type Love has to be the result of an autonomous free will choice with likely alternatives (for humans that is the perceived pleasures of sin). The only initial way of obtaining Godly type Love comes automatically with accepting forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt. Luke 7 Jesus taught us: He that is forgiven much Loves much.




Is your Salvation based upon what you have been forgiven?
Does what you have been Forgiven, determine how much you will love, with a Godly type Love?

Or do you ,with your Free Will, decide to become like God at some time in your life or throughout the course of your life and express this Godly type Love you speak of?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,930
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,622.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Wow!
God allowed His son, whom he Loved beyond words, to go to the cross, which was a huge sacrificial Love, to help those who hated Him. Would anyone give up more to help those totally undeserving of anything? Can you come up with some greater unselfishness?
"Unselfishness" is too small a word for God's love, and is never used in the Bible to describe God or his love.
In fact, the word itself is never used for anything in the Bible.

Staying with Biblical terminology keeps us in the correct lane.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JIMINZ
Upvote 0

Bruce Leiter

A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love
Jun 16, 2018
782
551
81
West Michigan
Visit site
✟56,865.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

Isaiah 55:9 tells us, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." So what would naturally seem to us to be a subject that we should esteem and cherish (like our option to choose), God more than likely has different thoughts than ours about it.

I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

Free will handed to fallen creatures is a double-edged sword that we wield to our own destruction. It would seem that heaven, as the final purified state for us, will include the removal of all impulses to choose anything other than God's perfect will. Anything less than being totally submerged in God's will would be to live precariously at risk for another fall into sin. To be thus exposed to the possibility of another fall would not be a restful state to remain in for all eternity.

Humanity has devised pejorative terms for such a perfected state; terms such as "mindless robot", "slave", "the Borg mentality", etc.. Christ Himself was not averse to claiming total subjection to the Father's will, saying "I do always those things that please him", and "Not my will, but thine be done". Yet we do not despise Christ for voicing this total merging of His own will with that of the Father. Why should this be something repugnant when it comes to the idea of our having free will stripped from us in the final perfected state?

Where do you get the idea of free will without adding it to the texts? My take is that God made humans totally dependent on him and with full responsibility for all their actions. They are either slaves to Satan or God's adopted children who freely choose to serve him empowered to love him by the Holy Spirit.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

Understand this.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:

This gift does not require a (Free Will) acceptance in order for it to be a valid gift, God does not walk around as a peddler, trying to find people who would accept His gift.
NO, not at all, God Chooses who He would give this gift to then gives it as per. the verse above.


Eph 2:9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.

If you insist upon your Free Will playing any part in it, you then have room to boast, and I think that is exactly what I hear coming from you about your Accepting His Gift, because you could have also exercised your Free Will and refused it.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This last verse clearly says we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus that is
(Born Again of His Spirit IN Christ Jesus) unto good works, (Express Godly type Love ) in the earth, because GOD has before Ordained, that we should (WOULD) walk in them.

I do not see anywhere in these verses where your so called Free Will is ever Expressed.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Dear Mark,
I have heard your reasoning before about "ra" not being translated as "evil" but as "calamity". However, all things come from God and are created by God. Everything in existence comes from God. He causes evil to come into existence, therefore it is proper to say He created evil as Isa 45:7 says. Plus, isn't "calamity" evil anyway?

Also, as I presented, it is completely supportable by scripture that God uses evil to accomplish good.

If God didn't create "evil", who did? Mankind cannot create anything.

Also, you said "God is not the author of sin". What verse says that?

Here is the closest I can find:

1Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Joe
Sin is not a thing, in and of itself, but only in relation to good. In purest human definition it is rebellion against God, which is something God provided for but did not create. God caused it, but did not create it. God does not tempt. Sin does not proceed from God, as do all things. Evil is not created, the same sense that anything else is. We give it a status like any other thing, or at least the status of a concept; we think of it and speak of it as a principle, a force, but it is not like any other principle or force. It is a corruption of creation, a privation of good.

This is no ordinary principle or law like 'entropy'. It does not answer to any principle except the power of God.

God provided for sin to come, because it was necessary that it be so, in order to produce the end result for which he created all of this. But woe to the man through whom it comes. It is the ONLY thing that can truly hurt God ("bruised heel"), and that is what it took, for our sakes and to his glory.

And no, calamity is not sin.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Biblical Free Will; Sovereignty of God

The Bible does not teach the" free will" of unregenerate man. Free will is a philosophical notion (Aristotle, Cicero) asserted by Pelagius, a British monk around 400 AD, on the assumption that the moral responsibility of man requires that man have a free will. Biblically, this is not so.

The Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin (John 8:34; Galatians 3:22; Romans 11:32),
that it is only those whom the Son makes free that are free (John 8:36; cf John 8:32, Romans 6:18, 22, 8:12; Galatians 5:1).
Free will (self-power) was lost in the fall when man's nature became corrupted, enslaving him to sin so that he cannot do the good (Romans 7:18-19, 8:7). Free will (self-power) means the freedom (power) to do the good; i.e., obey God (Mark 12:29-31), to be sinless. Unregenerate man no longer has that power (Romans 5:6, 7:18, 8:7-8; John 15:5), which is the meaning of the depravity of man.

What unregenerate man has is" free agency," the freedom to do what he wishes or desires, to act voluntarily according to his disposition. But with his unregenerate (fallen) nature, his disposition is toward evil; i.e., self-interest in preference to God (Mark 12:29-30; Romans 1:21, 3:10-12, 23). The difference between free will and free agency is not just semantics, it's the difference between being able to obey God and not being able to obey God (Romans 8:7-8). The regenerate man can obey God, not because of self-power (free will), but because of the power of the Holy Spirit who transforms his disposition (Romans 8:9).

The conclusion to this is: there is no conflict in Scripture between the absolute sovereignty of God (Daniel 4:35; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Luke 22:22; Romans 8:29-30, 9:14-29, 11:25-34; Ephesians 1:4-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2) and the free will of man, because the Bible does not teach that man has free will (Romans 3:9-12, 23, 6:6, 17-22, 7:14, 24-25, 8:7).
Man is only a free agent, choosing voluntarily accordng to his disposition, which is corrupt and evil (Genesis 6:5, 8:21; Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 7:11; John 1:5, 3:19). God exercises his sovereignty over man, not by compelling their acts or wills contrary to their preferences or disposition (which would be an overriding of their free agency), but by operating through their dispositions (Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Psalms 105:25, 106:46; Proverbs 21:1; Ezekiel 36:27; Daniel 1:9; 2 Corinthians 8:16; Revelation 17:17), to which their wills freely respond. So that there is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and the free agency of man, because man stll acts voluntarily according to his wishes and desires, he still voluntarily chooses to do what he prefers, which is the meaning of free agency (and what many think is the meaning of "free will;" i.e. the power to make all moral choices).

So the Bible does not teach the ability of unregenerate man to always choose the good (John 8:35), it teaches only the ability of unregenerate man to choose voluntarily (Exodus 25:2; Ezra 7:13), and it teaches that when man voluntarily chooses to do what pleases God (keeping in mind that anything done by God's enemy; i.e., apart from faith in Jesus Christ, has no ability to please God), it is only because the power of God works it in him (Ezra 1:5; John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 2:14, 15:10; Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 13:21).

philosophical free will -- the Biblie denies such (John 6:65, 8:34)

philosohical free agency = Biblical free will (Exodus 25:2; Ezra 7:13)
Thank you for this, Clare. This has convinced me to give up the term "free will" that I have been trying to use to show I do believe in real choice, with real consequences, but not 'free' the way most seem to think it means. If I can remember to, I will use "free agency".

Haha, almost a pun, that 'agency' implies used by something else. It helps limit the notion of 'free'!

Again, Thank you.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sin is not a thing, in and of itself, but only in relation to good.
What do you make of this?

Genesis 4:7 NIV
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I think Adolf Hitler had that one covered.

Saint Steven said:
It seems to me that any thinking human knows that incinerating another living human is not love. Even if you were brainwashed from the earliest age to believe it is love. But here we are... Go ahead and blame the victims. That would be the obvious reply, right?
By 'dead human' I was referring to the spiritually dead —the difference between dead in sin and alive in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
What do you make of this?

Genesis 4:7 NIV
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Yes, I know. Sounds like personality. And I have to say, in my encounters with certain, uh, 'entities', it feels that way.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
By 'dead human' I was referring to the spiritually dead —the difference between dead in sin and alive in Christ.
Here's what I wrote at the beginning of this interchange.
It seems to me that any thinking human knows that incinerating another living human is not love. Even if you were brainwashed from the earliest age to believe it is love. But here we are... Go ahead and blame the victims. That would be the obvious reply, right?
Is spiritually dead somehow a painless state in the fire of hell? Or do you anticipate unbearable agony? (with no hope of escape) Feel the love.
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
62
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟24,406.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sin is not a thing, in and of itself, but only in relation to good. In purest human definition it is rebellion against God, which is something God provided for but did not create. God caused it, but did not create it. God does not tempt. Sin does not proceed from God, as do all things. Evil is not created, the same sense that anything else is. We give it a status like any other thing, or at least the status of a concept; we think of it and speak of it as a principle, a force, but it is not like any other principle or force. It is a corruption of creation, a privation of good.

This is no ordinary principle or law like 'entropy'. It does not answer to any principle except the power of God.

God provided for sin to come, because it was necessary that it be so, in order to produce the end result for which he created all of this. But woe to the man through whom it comes. It is the ONLY thing that can truly hurt God ("bruised heel"), and that is what it took, for our sakes and to his glory.

And no, calamity is not sin.

Dear Mark,
The scriptural definition of sin is "missing the mark".

Also, God does not tempt but He did create Satan and uses him to do the tempting.

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

Sin does not proceed from God because God never misses His mark when He uses evil. Evil is not sin in the hands of God:

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Evil is not a physical creation. It is a spiritual creation. Evil was created within mankind and within the fallen angels.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


Good and evil are certainly included in "all things". There is nothing in existence that God did not create, either directly from His own hand or by the hands of something He created.

You said:
God provided for sin to come, because it was necessary that it be so, in order to produce the end result for which he created all of this. But woe to the man through whom it comes.

I agree with those comments.

You said:
It is the ONLY thing that can truly hurt God ("bruised heel"), and that is what it took, for our sakes and to his glory.

I certainly don't believe anything can hurt God. I'm not sure what you are referring to about a "bruised heel". Maybe you can show me the verse???

God created all things and He causes all things. Nothing happens in this creation unless God is the cause behind it. He has no enemy except the ones He purposely created. God never makes mistakes or it would be a sin. He is all-powerful and none can withstand Him.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.

Joe
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Here's what I wrote at the beginning of this interchange.

Is spiritually dead somehow a painless state in the fire of hell? Or do you anticipate unbearable agony? (with no hope of escape) Feel the love.
I really don't know what it will be like for them. I tend to think in terms of no time passage (not in terms of an eternally long time) but not like wham, and then it's over with. One thing I do know, is that God is perfectly just, and what they get, they deserve —no more, no less. "Quality, not quantity"? But I don't know.

The 'no time passage' idea answers better a lot of questions for me.
 
Upvote 0