Americans reject governors' edicts on mask mandates

HannahT · Aug 23, 2021

The Barbarian said:
roc Nat Acad Sci USA
2021 Jan 26;118(4)
An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19
Abstract
...The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected respiratory particles in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high. Given the current shortages of medical masks, we recommend the adoption of public cloth mask wearing, as an effective form of source control, in conjunction with existing hygiene, distancing, and contact tracing strategies.

You didn't read the whole study did you?

They also noted that, 'There are many important issues that need to be addressed. In this section, we suggest further research directions.'

The impact of using masks to control transmission in the workplace has not been well studied. One issue that impacts both school and work usage is that, over a full day’s use, masks may become wet, or dirty.

Notice the part where it states has not been well studied. Why? I would assume its a bit to early.

The Barbarian said:
mSphere: 2020 Oct 21;5(5):e00637-20.
Effectiveness of Face Masks in Preventing Airborne Transmission of SARS-CoV-2
Abstract:
...We found that cotton masks, surgical masks, and N95 masks all have a protective effect with respect to the transmission of infective droplets/aerosols of SARS-CoV-2 and that the protective efficiency was higher when masks were worn by a virus spreader. Importantly, medical masks (surgical masks and even N95 masks) were not able to completely block the transmission of virus droplets/aerosols even when completely sealed. Our data will help medical workers understand the proper use and performance of masks and determine whether they need additional equipment to protect themselves from infected patients.IMPORTANCE Airborne simulation experiments showed that cotton masks, surgical masks, and N95 masks provide some protection from the transmission of infective SARS-CoV-2 droplets/aerosols; however, medical masks (surgical masks and even N95 masks) could not completely block the transmission of virus droplets/aerosols even when sealed.

This article may or may not have any updates. It's almost a year old, and as we know many opinions have changed on issues since that time.

The beginning part also notes that we don't have a full confirmation as of the date of this article.

Guidelines from the CDC and the WHO recommend the wearing of face masks to prevent the spread of coronavirus (CoV) disease 2019 (COVID-19); however, the protective efficiency of such masks against airborne transmission of infectious severe acute respiratory syndrome CoV-2 (SARS-CoV-2) droplets/aerosols is unknown.

This is all new science, and they are doing the best they can to find answers.

The Barbarian said:
Meta-Analysis

Jul-Aug 2020;36
Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis
Abstract
Results: A total of 21 studies met our inclusion criteria. Meta-analyses suggest that mask use provided a significant protective effect (OR = 0.35 and 95% CI = 0.24-0.51). Use of masks by healthcare workers (HCWs) and non-healthcare workers (Non-HCWs) can reduce the risk of respiratory virus infection by 80% (OR = 0.20, 95% CI = 0.11-0.37) and 47% (OR = 0.53, 95% CI = 0.36-0.79). The protective effect of wearing masks in Asia (OR = 0.31) appeared to be higher than that of Western countries (OR = 0.45). Masks had a protective effect against influenza viruses (OR = 0.55), SARS (OR = 0.26), and SARS-CoV-2 (OR = 0.04). In the subgroups based on different study designs, protective effects of wearing mask were significant in cluster randomized trials and observational studies.

This study is more than a year old, and they also have a quote showing its NOT firm science yet.

Further improvements for original studies are needed in the future
Important knowledge gaps persist. At present, current evidence on the protective efficiency of masks among the general population is still insufficient. Only one study included in our meta-analysis investigated whether people with certain underlying conditions require masks or not [33]. Recall bias in case-control studies seems inevitable [22]. Therefore, high-quality and well-designed RCTs will be desired to investigate the actual protective effectiveness of masks.

Whereas, masks to me in certain circumstances are common sense. Yet, to say the science is settled? Even the science doesn't say that.

That's why I was wondering about the other parts of the world, and how they came to their conclusions of no mask mandates.

The Barbarian · Aug 23, 2021

HannahT said:
You didn't read the whole study did you?

I did. The key is that the final conclusions are in the abstract:
Results: A total of 21 studies met our inclusion criteria. Meta-analyses suggest that mask use provided a significant protective effect (OR = 0.35 and 95% CI = 0.24-0.51). Use of masks by healthcare workers (HCWs) and non-healthcare workers (Non-HCWs) can reduce the risk of respiratory virus infection by 80% (OR = 0.20, 95% CI = 0.11-0.37) and 47% (OR = 0.53, 95% CI = 0.36-0.79). The protective effect of wearing masks in Asia (OR = 0.31) appeared to be higher than that of Western countries (OR = 0.45). Masks had a protective effect against influenza viruses (OR = 0.55), SARS (OR = 0.26), and SARS-CoV-2 (OR = 0.04). In the subgroups based on different study designs, protective effects of wearing mask were significant in cluster randomized trials and observational studies.

They also noted that, 'There are many important issues that need to be addressed. In this section, we suggest further research directions.'

Yep. The evidence shows masks do reduce transmission of COVID-19. But there's still a lot to learn about how and how much. Bottom line in the study was that it works. Cherry-picking a few lines apart from the Abstract really won't help you much.

HannahT said:
This article may or may not have any updates. It's almost a year old, and as we know many opinions have changed on issues since that time.

Opinions change. But the facts don't. Bottom line?

Masks had a protective effect against influenza viruses (OR = 0.55), SARS (OR = 0.26), and SARS-CoV-2 (OR = 0.04). In the subgroups based on different study designs, protective effects of wearing mask were significant in cluster randomized trials and observational studies.

At some point, one needs to come to terms with the reality.

Dale · Aug 23, 2021

pescador said:
Generalities mean zilch. Can you give specific examples (with evidence)?

You wrote...

1) "public officials trying for unfettered power and control"
2) "Those governors are trying to usurp powers reserved to local voters and the people they elect"
3) "It's what tyrants do"

Yet you have nothing to substantiate these statements.

Pescador, you don’t seem to be aware of how much preemption of local government has become a habit of Republican legislatures in recent years. I live in Florida, so I’m constantly hearing of this that and the other being preempted.

I’ll give two sources below.

Quote

The 2020 Florida Statutes

CRIMES

WEAPONS AND FIREARMS

790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.—

(1) PREEMPTION.—Except as expressly provided by the State Constitution or general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, storage, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or any administrative regulations or rules adopted by local or state government relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances, rules, or regulations are hereby declared null and void.

End Quote

Link
Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

From the website of the Florida Association of Counties:

Preempting Local Occupational Licensing Legislation Passes

Fuel Pump Preemption Passes

Gas Station Preemption Passes

Utility Services Preemption Passes

Legislation Preempting Referendums of Florida Seaports Passes as an Amendment to Transportation Bill

Solar Facility Preemption Passes

Cottage Food Preemption Passes

Firearms and Ammunition Preemption Passes
[This is in addition to previous restrictions.]

Link
2021 Legislative Final Report: Preemptions/Mandates | Florida Association of Counties

Dale · Aug 23, 2021

HannahT said:
I'm not sure this debate is worded correctly.

One side thinks the government should place mandate behind the mask wearing, and the other side wants it to be choice.

No one is stopping parents from insisting their child wear a mask. They can wear the mask if they feel it is important to their child. If I had younger children? I might be encouraging them to wear it in school. Lack of mandate doesn't stop that.

The rub comes when people are forced to have their children in masks, and claims they have science and data on their side. Yet, there really isn't any. There are countries - not third world either - that don't have the mask mandates for their school children. They claim science and data too. Many of those places were hit with the Delta variant hard before we did. Yet, they still don't mask their kids in school with a mandate.

I think people need to see this science and data that both sides claim is true, and let the marbles fall where they may.

HannahT said:
I didn't say masks didn't work - or did work. Not sure where you got that from.

You have to wonder WHY some countries - for whatever reason - don't have mask mandates. Remember its the government that is claiming the science, and if they can't back up it? Then you allow choice, and not mandates.

Science and data need to show a clear benefit from the masks. Why they can't I don't know. They don't at this point, although some media will swear up and down it does. Then they give you a poll - not science and data. If you just want to go by societal/political terms - which are fluid - then wear your mask. No one is stopping you from getting your benefit that isn't discounted at that point.

All I'm saying is there are places in this world that aren't considered third world, and are UP THERE with us in terms of science, medicine, etc. that don't agree with our current societal/political approaches. There is nothing wrong with looking at their prospective - and science/data - to see how they landed there. Is there something wrong with that? No. Why then are people so opposed to that then? It makes no sense.

Hannah,

I don’t know why you are trying to cast doubt on the usefullness of masks. The case for masks is obvious, simple and straightforward. Droplets of saliva come out of people’s mouths and noses. When people have a virus multiplying in their bodies, those droplets contain the virus. Masks stop most of those droplets, they stick in the fabric.

Masks provide DOUBLE protection. If you have the virus, and are spreading it, and don’t realize it, the mask nevertheless stops droplets of your saliva contaminated with the virus. If you don’t have the virus and meet other people who do, the mask stops droplets exhaled by other people before they get to your lungs, where the virus will start to multiply.

Is there something there you don’t understand?

The Barbarian · Aug 23, 2021

Dale said:
Pescador, you don’t seem to be aware of how much preemption of local government has become a habit of Republican legislatures in recent years. I live in Florida, so I’m constantly hearing of this that and the other being preempted.

Because many localities are becoming democratic in red states, the republicans are trying to take as much power away from the local governments and centralize it in the Governor.

This is how tyranny begins.

Dale · Aug 24, 2021

The Barbarian said:
Because many localities are becoming democratic in red states, the republicans are trying to take as much power away from the local governments and centralize it in the Governor.

This is how tyranny begins.

Yet it is odd. Traditionally, the Republicans were the party that believed in local government. I am old enough to remember Richard Nixon talking about "neighborhood schools." I remember Ronald Reagan says that local government is "closer to the folks."

Today, whenever the Florida legislature passes a law, they put in a provision taking away the power of local government to deal with that subject. I am tempted to ask people, why not abolish local government completely? What is there left for local government to do except run sewage plants and pick up garbage?

The Barbarian · Aug 24, 2021

Dale said:
Yet it is odd. Traditionally, the Republicans were the party that believed in local government. I am old enough to remember Richard Nixon talking about "neighborhood schools." I remember Ronald Reagan says that local government is "closer to the folks."

But the problem is that people at the local level have rejected the radical views of republicans, so they are now seeking to take choices away from locally-elected officials. The new republican party says "we know what's best for you, so obey us."

Dale said:
I remember Ronald Reagan says that local government is "closer to the folks."

It's not Ronald Reagan's republican party any more.

classical5 · Aug 25, 2021

RDKirk said:
At some point in time, however, pro-maskers are going to have to get honest about wearing real masks (that is, K-95 or KN-95 masks) rather than small pieces of cloth on their faces.

Not just wearing a real mask, but for it to be effective you cannot have facial hair. And these masks are to be changed every hour, they are not reusable, so pro-maskers should be going through 40+ masks a week.

classical5 · Aug 25, 2021

Dale said:
Yet it is odd. Traditionally, the Republicans were the party that believed in local government. I am old enough to remember Richard Nixon talking about "neighborhood schools." I remember Ronald Reagan says that local government is "closer to the folks."

Today, whenever the Florida legislature passes a law, they put in a provision taking away the power of local government to deal with that subject. I am tempted to ask people, why not abolish local government completely? What is there left for local government to do except run sewage plants and pick up garbage?

Those laws include provisions to prevent tyrannical local governments from circumventing gun rights laws. In Florida some Democrat run localities we’re ignoring state gun right laws or passing gun bans or restrictions that were illegal and opposed by the people in those areas.

Democrats are the problem.

RDKirk · Aug 25, 2021

classical5 said:
Not just wearing a real mask, but for it to be effective you cannot have facial hair. And these masks are to be changed every hour, they are not reusable, so pro-maskers should be going through 40+ masks a week.

That's if you're working in an area of known contamination, like a covid ward in a hospital, or in a room with a covid patient.

For everyone else leading a cautious lifestyle practicing covid-conscious activities (such as avoiding crowds and social distancing), the odds of even having encountered covid virus is only 1 in 10.

And we already know from hospital experience that even people who are working directly with covid patients in 100% covid environments have gotten along with using their masks all day in such environments and then sanitizing them.

So ordinary persons with only occasional chance of contact contact with covid virus do not, in practice, need to go through such robust praxis.

classical5 · Aug 25, 2021

RDKirk said:
That's if you're working in an area of known contamination, like a covid ward in a hospital, or in a room with a covid patient.

For everyone else leading a cautious lifestyle practicing covid-conscious activities (such as avoiding crowds and social distancing), the odds of even having encountered covid virus is only 1 in 10.

And we already know from hospital experience that even people who are working directly with covid patients in 100% covid environments have gotten along with using their masks all day in such environments and then sanitizing them.

So ordinary persons with only occasional chance of contact contact with covid virus do not, in practice, need to go through such robust praxis.

That’s not the full reason for changing masks. International Journal of Infectious Disease (2014) studiedmask use in surgery centers. After 1 hour masks were saturated with bacteria, after about 90 minutes more bacteria was being pushed through the mask onto the patient than if the surgeon was not wearing a mask. They also concluded if a person wore one mask all work day the chance of getting mask induced respiratory illness was 2% per month (maybe per week I don’t remember).

Hence, change your mask every hour.

RDKirk · Aug 25, 2021

classical5 said:
That’s not the full reason for changing masks. International Journal of Infectious Disease (2014) studiedmask use in surgery centers. After 1 hour masks were saturated with bacteria, after about 90 minutes more bacteria was being pushed through the mask onto the patient than if the surgeon was not wearing a mask. They also concluded if a person wore one mask all work day the chance of getting mask induced respiratory illness was 2% per month (maybe per week I don’t remember).

Hence, change your mask every hour.

We're not worried about ordinary bacteria in a non-surgical environment. We are not cutting anyone open while walking though Home Depot. Again, the odds of a normal person taking other covid precations even encountering covid in passing is only 1 in 10.

classical5 · Aug 25, 2021

RDKirk said:
We're not worried about ordinary bacteria in a non-surgical environment. We are not cutting anyone open while walking though Home Depot. Again, the odds of a normal person taking other covid precations even encountering covid in passing is only 1 in 10.

Read it all. Even if it’s 2% per month chance of getting mask induced respiratory illness, that means about 25% will get sick per year just because they didn’t change masks.

classical5 · Aug 25, 2021

RDKirk said:
We're not worried about ordinary bacteria in a non-surgical environment. We are not cutting anyone open while walking though Home Depot. Again, the odds of a normal person taking other covid precations even encountering covid in passing is only 1 in 10.

you do know you can get very sick from bacteria? Just as sick as from a virus.

classical5 · Aug 26, 2021

The Barbarian said:
A new poll by Axios shows that Americans are rebelling against governors who are trying to prevent local governents and school districts from protecting their children and citizens from COVID-19 infections:

View attachment 304741
1. Support for state and local government mask requirements is strong, but few say it’s been required in the last few weeks.

Two-thirds (64%) support their state or local government requiring masks to be worn in all public places.

However, there are significant partisan differences, with the vast majority of Democrats (88%) and less than half of Republicans (40%) in favor of state or local mask mandates.
...

2. A strong majority support requiring masks in schools, and most don’t want state governments prohibiting local mask requirements.
...
The intrigue: In a new question this week, respondents were asked how much trust they place in conservative news — and about one in three of both vaccinated and unvaccinated Americans said they have a great or fair amount of trust.
https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/axios-ipsos-coronavirus-index

Looks like a real grass-roots rebellion against tyranny is brewing.

AxiOS is as far left as the NYT, it’s just a propaganda arm of the tyrant democrats. Don’t believe a word they print.

In Florida - outside of a few small urban democrat havens (commonly called lunatic havens) - deSantis is hailed for common sense and being constitutional.

That’s why the few democrats remaining hate him. Democrats gate people who are too smart to obey the democrat diktat.

The Barbarian · Aug 26, 2021

classical5 said:
AxiOS is as far left as the NYT, it’s just a propaganda arm of the tyrant democrats. Don’t believe a word they print.

Sorry, "they are all lying, all of them!" is not an adequate defense against reality.

classical5 said:
In Florida - outside of a few small urban democrat havens (commonly called lunatic havens) - deSantis is hailed for common sense and being constitutional.

Well, that's a testable assumption...

DeSantis falls in more polls:
DeSantis support falling:
https://floridapolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/StPetePolls_2021_State_August3_P7F9W.pdf

The latest surge of COVID-19 might be catching up with Gov. Ron DeSantis.

A new poll from St. Pete Polls finds the Governor’s approval rating has sagged considerably, with more Floridians now saying they do not approve of the job DeSantis is doing than those who say they approve.

The poll, which was conducted Monday and Tuesday among 3,952 likely Florida voters through an automated phone polling system, also found DeSantis falling behind one Democratic rival for the 2022 gubernatorial election, trailing Democratic U.S. Rep. Charlie Crist. DeSantis has a slight lead on Democratic Florida Agriculture Commissioner Nikki Fried in the poll.

The poll also shows Floridians are not in agreement with DeSantis when it comes to his opposition to mask mandates for school children.

DeSantis drew just 44% of Florida voters saying they approve of the job he is doing, while 49% said they do not approve of his job performance. The rest were unsure.

That is a huge swing from the job approval numbers DeSantis received in a Florida Chamber of Commerce poll in May. That survey gave him a 55% approval for his job performance, with 40% not approving.
Poll: Ron DeSantis approval rating sags as COVID-19 rages

As new infections and deaths accelerate, voters are blaming DeSantis for his failure to effectively control the pandemic.

A new record yesterday. Over 26,000 new cases. He's hiding the death toll right now, but...

In the state's latest report, Florida recorded new COVID-19 fatalities at a rate of more than 200 per day from Aug. 13-19, surpassing the previous mark from the pandemic's January peak in Florida.

The Florida Department of Health added 1,486 more COVID-19 deaths to its total in its weekly report released late Friday, bringing the state's reported toll among residents to 42,252.

That figure does not account for those who died in Florida but were not residents of the state — the health department ceased to include those individuals after June 3 — nor does it include people who may have died from COVID-19 recently but are not yet added to the official tally.
Coronavirus deaths in Florida surpass weekly record

classical5 · Aug 26, 2021

The Barbarian said:
Sorry, "they are all lying, all of them!" is not an adequate defense against reality.

Well, that's a testable assumption...

DeSantis falls in more polls:
DeSantis support falling:
https://floridapolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/StPetePolls_2021_State_August3_P7F9W.pdf

The latest surge of COVID-19 might be catching up with Gov. Ron DeSantis.

A new poll from St. Pete Polls finds the Governor’s approval rating has sagged considerably, with more Floridians now saying they do not approve of the job DeSantis is doing than those who say they approve.

The poll, which was conducted Monday and Tuesday among 3,952 likely Florida voters through an automated phone polling system, also found DeSantis falling behind one Democratic rival for the 2022 gubernatorial election, trailing Democratic U.S. Rep. Charlie Crist. DeSantis has a slight lead on Democratic Florida Agriculture Commissioner Nikki Fried in the poll.

The poll also shows Floridians are not in agreement with DeSantis when it comes to his opposition to mask mandates for school children.

DeSantis drew just 44% of Florida voters saying they approve of the job he is doing, while 49% said they do not approve of his job performance. The rest were unsure.

That is a huge swing from the job approval numbers DeSantis received in a Florida Chamber of Commerce poll in May. That survey gave him a 55% approval for his job performance, with 40% not approving.
Poll: Ron DeSantis approval rating sags as COVID-19 rages

As new infections and deaths accelerate, voters are blaming DeSantis for his failure to effectively control the pandemic.
View attachment 304958
A new record yesterday. Over 26,000 new cases. He's hiding the death toll right now, but...

In the state's latest report, Florida recorded new COVID-19 fatalities at a rate of more than 200 per day from Aug. 13-19, surpassing the previous mark from the pandemic's January peak in Florida.

The Florida Department of Health added 1,486 more COVID-19 deaths to its total in its weekly report released late Friday, bringing the state's reported toll among residents to 42,252.

That figure does not account for those who died in Florida but were not residents of the state — the health department ceased to include those individuals after June 3 — nor does it include people who may have died from COVID-19 recently but are not yet added to the official tally.
Coronavirus deaths in Florida surpass weekly record

Read the poll methodology, results were “weighted” for demographics. That means the ultra left St Pete newspaper fudged the results.

LOL you fail yet again. So funny, all that work typing gibberish!

The Barbarian · Aug 26, 2021

classical5 said:
Read the poll methodology, results were “weighted” for demographics.

Yeah, all polls try to make sure that the demographics of the sample matches the demographics of the actual population. If you thought about it, I bet you'd realize why that's important if you want an accurate measure of the population. If you can't figure it out, I'll explain it to you.

classical5 said:
That means the ultra left St Pete newspaper fudged the results.

It means they did what a good statistician does; assures a representative sample. I'm just trying to help you get a realistic understanding of it all.

classical5 said:
LOL you fail yet again.

Apparently so.

Dale · Aug 26, 2021

classical5 said:
Not just wearing a real mask, but for it to be effective you cannot have facial hair. And these masks are to be changed every hour, they are not reusable, so pro-maskers should be going through 40+ masks a week.

Do you make this stuff up as you go along? The CDC says that masks should be washed once a day. It says nothing about changing them every hour. Cloth masks are reusable. Your claim that “they are not reusable” is false. The CDC does not agree with your wild statement that all facial hair makes masks ineffective.

CDC: “Reusable masks should be washed whenever it gets dirty or at least daily.”

Daily. Nothing here about changing masks every hour.

The CDC does recommend a double layer of masks for men with beards, as one way of dealing with this situation.

You mention “pro-maskers”. Is that your term for people who need masks to protect their health and people who want their neighbors to go on living?

Link
COVID-19 and Your Health

Dale · Aug 26, 2021

classical5 said:
Those laws include provisions to prevent tyrannical local governments from circumventing gun rights laws. In Florida some Democrat run localities we’re ignoring state gun right laws or passing gun bans or restrictions that were illegal and opposed by the people in those areas.

Democrats are the problem.

“Gun rights” exist only in your head. The Declaration of Independence does tell us about the right to life. You mention “gun bans.” Name one city or county in Florida that has passed a “gun ban.”

You mention “tyrannical local governments.” Have you read the crime news from the cities or counties that you claim are run by tyrants? Years ago I did a CF thread on a news story from the Orlando area. It pointed out that there are neighborhoods where every house has bullet marks on it. My thread on that didn’t attract much interest.

Americans reject governors' edicts on mask mandates

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