Full Preterism

Hey again Clare73,

As for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected "First-fruits" saints, they did NOT ascend to heaven along with Christ in Acts 1. We know this, because Revelation 15:8 says that no man could enter the temple in heaven until the 7 plagues were fulfilled. Any resurrected saints such as the Matthew 27 ones remained on earth to serve in the early church as the "gifts" that Christ gave to men. These resurrected saints from that "multitude of captives" were identified as being apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers, as Ephesians 4:11 enumerated them.

We know that these "First-fruits" resurrected saints stayed on earth for a time to serve in the church, because the apostle Paul gave testimony in Romans 8:23 that "ourselves also, which HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." This is NOT the same as having the "fruit of the Spirit", such as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. This was the church having the "FIRST-fruits" among them, which is something entirely different.

Romans 8:23 said that even the already-resurrected "Firstfruits" of the Spirit's work of redemption were eagerly waiting for the redemption of the physical body for the rest of the saints, since that is when they would all be raptured together to meet the Lord in the air (which happened in AD 70 on that 1,33th day, fulfilling the I Thess. 4 "rapture" text). The "rapture" event took all those saints who had ALREADY been made "alive" by resurrection but who had "remained" on earth, and then gathered them together with those who were newly-resurrected at Christ's second coming in AD 70. These all were taken to heaven then, according to Jesus's promise to "come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." None but resurrected saints participated in that rapture. A "translation" type of change for living believers in the "rapture" was never promised in scripture anywhere. ALL are appointed to die the one time before their body is changed into an incorruptible state.

Yes, we do have scripture describing the saints in various phases of this process as the "body of Christ" being in heaven and on earth at the same time. Ephesians 1:10 is one such passage. The mystery made known to the church was "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE all things in Christ, BOTH WHICH ARE *IN HEAVEN* AND WHICH ARE *ON EARTH*; even in him:" This meant that those like the resurrected Matthew 27 saints that were then still "on earth" would be gathered together with the saints' spirits who were then waiting "in heaven" to be given their glorified, resurrected bodies when the dead in Christ would rise (in the second, AD 70 resurrection).

It is NOT "extra-biblical" to have another additional judgment. This is very simple to prove. We are told that "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ", so if it can be proved (and it can) that a first-century resurrection and judgment took place, then we, too, must have our "day in court" as well - only in a future event.

A simple way to determine a THIRD resurrection event for us in the future is to read the way the "Great Tribulation" is described in Matthew 24:21-30. Christ said that this particular "great tribulation" period would be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no NOR EVER *SHALL BE*." This means time would go marching forward, even AFTER the Great Tribulation, with various ordinary periods of tribulation for the saints, but with none in history that would ever be of the same kind as that which had taken place long before during the "Great Tribulation" period. (Christ's promised seven-fold demonic oppression of that generation of Israel in its "last state" was the main reason for the unprecedented, unduplicated "Great Tribulation" period. After that, God rid the world of the demonic and Satanic realm in AD 70, which can never again descend en masse on any city or nation again. Any evil at present in the world is humanity's own doing.)

We also read that "*IMMEDIATELY* AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS", that Christ would come in the clouds of heaven with great glory. Now, if Christ was to "IMMEDIATELY" return after the "Great Tribulation", and history would keep marching forward in time AFTER He had returned, then there simply MUST BE another bodily resurrection and judgment scheduled for the rest of us saints to participate in.

These THREE resurrection group events were timed to fall on the calendar at the same time of year that the three required OT harvest feasts were celebrated: at Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. These three OT Mosaic feasts provided a living picture of how God as the "husbandman" would harvest the "precious fruit of the earth" by raising the bodies of his children out of the dust of the grave on those three separate occasions. We already know the Matthew 27:52-53 saints along with Christ fulfilled the Passover resurrection as the "First-fruits" raised from the dead. Since the 1,335th day with its prophesied resurrection fell on a Pentecost feast day in AD 70, that leaves the Feast of Tabernacles time of year that provided a type for the final third resurrection event in our future. Even a very young child can understand the symbolism of seeds being planted and a crop being harvested, compared to a harvest of dead saints coming to life again in glorified bodies out of the dust of the grave in a resurrection event.

James 5:7-8 makes this identical comparison. "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the EARLY and LATTER rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." The "early" and "latter rain" (with which Israel's harvests were tightly linked) provided the schedule for the 3 required harvest feast celebrations, since the rain falls at very predictable times for the crops in that region of the world. James was encouraging the saints to hang on patiently, because Christ as a judge was then "at the door", and His "latter rain" time of return in those "last days" had already drawn near as James was writing.

Oh, and the New Jerusalem is not in a physical location per se. It's as Isaiah described it in Isaiah 60, with its walls called "Salvation", and its gates called "Praise". The New Jerusalem is a spiritual city whose builder and maker is God, as Abraham understood it.

Andrewn said:

What are the views of full preterits regarding the Millennium?

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Not a full Preterist, But I agree the Millennium is past.
I concur with:
Dr Scott Hahn regarding the Thousand years being Typological reference to the Length of the Davidic Monarchy

Andrewn said:

Does this mean we're already in the new heaven and new earth?

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I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865) - (Also not a Full Preterist)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

parousia70 said:

Not a full Preterist, But I agree the Millennium is past.
I concur with:
Dr Scott Hahn regarding the Thousand years being Typological reference to the Length of the Davidic Monarchy



I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865) - (Also not a Full Preterist)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings. We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

Click to expand...

Dang, that’s interesting.

So, at the physical Return of Christ, will the heavens and earth literally be burned with fire? Will everything actually be renewed? Because I can see how taking on too much partial-preterism here can lead to a full preterism, and a denial / watering down of the actual Return of Christ.

anna ~ grace said:

Dang, that’s interesting.

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I agree.

So, at the physical Return of Christ

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Just for reference, What scriptures would you use to support this assumption? And what Physical Body do you believe will show up?

This one?:
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, (Revelation 5:6)

Or This One?:
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; (Revelation 1:14-15)

Neither of these "Physical Bodies" resemble the Physical Christ who walked the earth, which scripture says was quite ordinary and unremarkable.
(Isaiah 53:2)

I'm in Oregon, USA. How do you suppose I will see a Physical Jesus with my physical eyes descend upon the Mount of Olives?

will the heavens and earth literally be burned with fire?

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Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21)

I can see how taking on too much partial-preterism here can lead to a full preterism, and a denial / watering down of the actual Return of Christ.

Click to expand...

The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule it out, nor to deny that such an event would be the result of a future to us "parousia" of Christ.. Yet even that would not be an end of God's creation, but, rather, a new outworking of it. For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deut 29:29).

parousia70 said:

Not a full Preterist, But I agree the Millennium is past.
I concur with:
Dr Scott Hahn regarding the Thousand years being Typological reference to the Length of the Davidic Monarchy
I concur with:
C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865) - (Also not a Full Preterist)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354)

Click to expand...

The hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70.

Click to expand...

Read it again.
Jesus said the Law would pass when everything had been accomplished, which will be his return in his Second Coming at the end of time for the Final Judgment (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mark 13:1-31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

Click to expand...

Confirmation bias. . .

Mark 13:1-31 is a double prophecy woven in together of the end of the OT Church (destruction of Jerusalem) and the end of the temporal NT Church at the Second Coming at the end of time with the events of 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the heavens and the earth.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

Click to expand...

That again is a referral to the end of time, when God shakes the earth to shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:13), making it the home of righteousness (2 Peter 3:10-12).

We are to understand it as it was used by the OT prophets, Jesus and the writer of Hebrews in the Context of God's Judgment Comings.

Click to expand...

Yes, and Jesus' coming in Final Judgment is at the Second Coming at the end of time.

We can see that Jesus' didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom, which all can agree is a present fulfilled reality that we aren’t still waiting for.

Click to expand...

Actually, according to authoritative NT teaching, that is not what we see.

anna ~ grace said:

Dang, that’s interesting.

So, at the physical Return of Christ, will the heavens and earth literally be burned with fire? Will everything actually be renewed? Because I can see how taking on too much partial-preterism here can lead to a full preterism, and a denial / watering down of the actual Return of Christ.

Click to expand...

How are you a newbie with 8,000 posts?!

chad kincham said:

How are you a newbie with 8,000 posts?!

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Yeah, I’ve had that designation for about ten years.

I kind of like it, so I remain a Newbie.

3 Resurrections said:

Hey again Clare73,

As for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected "First-fruits" saints, they did NOT ascend to heaven along with Christ in Acts 1. We know this, because Revelation 15:8 says that no man could enter the temple in heaven until the 7 plagues were fulfilled. Any resurrected saints such as the Matthew 27 ones remained on earth to serve in the early church as the "gifts" that Christ gave to men. These resurrected saints from that "multitude of captives" were identified as being apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers, as Ephesians 4:11 enumerated them.

We know that these "First-fruits" resurrected saints stayed on earth for a time to serve in the church, because the apostle Paul gave testimony in Romans 8:23 that "ourselves also, which HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." This is NOT the same as having the "fruit of the Spirit", such as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. This was the church having the "FIRST-fruits" among them, which is something entirely different.

Romans 8:23 said that even the already-resurrected "Firstfruits" of the Spirit's work of redemption were eagerly waiting for the redemption of the physical body for the rest of the saints, since that is when they would all be raptured together to meet the Lord in the air (which happened in AD 70 on that 1,33th day, fulfilling the I Thess. 4 "rapture" text). The "rapture" event took all those saints who had ALREADY been made "alive" by resurrection but who had "remained" on earth, and then gathered them together with those who were newly-resurrected at Christ's second coming in AD 70. These all were taken to heaven then, according to Jesus's promise to "come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." None but resurrected saints participated in that rapture. A "translation" type of change for living believers in the "rapture" was never promised in scripture anywhere. ALL are appointed to die the one time before their body is changed into an incorruptible state.

Yes, we do have scripture describing the saints in various phases of this process as the "body of Christ" being in heaven and on earth at the same time. Ephesians 1:10 is one such passage. The mystery made known to the church was "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE all things in Christ, BOTH WHICH ARE *IN HEAVEN* AND WHICH ARE *ON EARTH*; even in him:" This meant that those like the resurrected Matthew 27 saints that were then still "on earth" would be gathered together with the saints' spirits who were then waiting "in heaven" to be given their glorified, resurrected bodies when the dead in Christ would rise (in the second, AD 70 resurrection).

It is NOT "extra-biblical" to have another additional judgment. This is very simple to prove. We are told that "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ", so if it can be proved (and it can) that a first-century resurrection and judgment took place, then we, too, must have our "day in court" as well - only in a future event.

A simple way to determine a THIRD resurrection event for us in the future is to read the way the "Great Tribulation" is described in Matthew 24:21-30. Christ said that this particular "great tribulation" period would be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no NOR EVER *SHALL BE*." This means time would go marching forward, even AFTER the Great Tribulation, with various ordinary periods of tribulation for the saints, but with none in history that would ever be of the same kind as that which had taken place long before during the "Great Tribulation" period. (Christ's promised seven-fold demonic oppression of that generation of Israel in its "last state" was the main reason for the unprecedented, unduplicated "Great Tribulation" period. After that, God rid the world of the demonic and Satanic realm in AD 70, which can never again descend en masse on any city or nation again. Any evil at present in the world is humanity's own doing.)

We also read that "*IMMEDIATELY* AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS", that Christ would come in the clouds of heaven with great glory. Now, if Christ was to "IMMEDIATELY" return after the "Great Tribulation", and history would keep marching forward in time AFTER He had returned, then there simply MUST BE another bodily resurrection and judgment scheduled for the rest of us saints to participate in.

These THREE resurrection group events were timed to fall on the calendar at the same time of year that the three required OT harvest feasts were celebrated: at Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. These three OT Mosaic feasts provided a living picture of how God as the "husbandman" would harvest the "precious fruit of the earth" by raising the bodies of his children out of the dust of the grave on those three separate occasions. We already know the Matthew 27:52-53 saints along with Christ fulfilled the Passover resurrection as the "First-fruits" raised from the dead. Since the 1,335th day with its prophesied resurrection fell on a Pentecost feast day in AD 70, that leaves the Feast of Tabernacles time of year that provided a type for the final third resurrection event in our future. Even a very young child can understand the symbolism of seeds being planted and a crop being harvested, compared to a harvest of dead saints coming to life again in glorified bodies out of the dust of the grave in a resurrection event.

James 5:7-8 makes this identical comparison. "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the EARLY and LATTER rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." The "early" and "latter rain" (with which Israel's harvests were tightly linked) provided the schedule for the 3 required harvest feast celebrations, since the rain falls at very predictable times for the crops in that region of the world. James was encouraging the saints to hang on patiently, because Christ as a judge was then "at the door", and His "latter rain" time of return in those "last days" had already drawn near as James was writing.

Oh, and the New Jerusalem is not in a physical location per se. It's as Isaiah described it in Isaiah 60, with its walls called "Salvation", and its gates called "Praise". The New Jerusalem is a spiritual city whose builder and maker is God, as Abraham understood it.

Click to expand...

Jesus has not returned.

There are many proofs of that, but Zechariah 14 has Jesus coming again with all the saints in verse 5, landing on mount Olive - from where He ascended from - and He splits mount Olive in two, with a huge chasm in the middle.

This obviously has not yet happened

IMO the chasm is to give the city New Jerusalem a place to land when it comes down from heaven in Revelation 21.

And given that in Zechariah 14 Jesus makes Jerusalem His home after He comes again, that is another reason why the New Jerusalem comes down to the old Jerusalem.

Fascinating thread. Some great posts.

parousia70 said:

Dr Scott Hahn regarding the Thousand years being Typological reference to the Length of the Davidic Monarchy

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Thank you for this link above. I listened to about half of that message, and heard the name "Corsini" as an earlier proponent of an OT millennium. This man Corsini's name I have heard before on a Full Preterist website that has since shut down. Dr. Hahn and I are not exactly in total agreement on every point, but he's VERY close to my views on this matter, since I see scripture describing the literal 1,000-year Revelation 20 millennium as starting with the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down in 968/967 BC. Dr. Hahn's message taught a mid-point revival during the millennium years, which I also see being described in Habakkuk 3:2 when the prophet prayed that God would "revive thy work in the MIDST OF THE YEARS." (the middle of the millennium years, that is).

God certainly DID "revive His work" in the post-exilic return (as Ezra 9:8-9 acknowledged this revival of the nation in his prayer) by laying another temple foundation stone using Zerubbabel's hands (Zechariah 4:7-10). Zerubbabel, significantly, was Jesus's direct ancestor on both sides of Mary and Joseph. And foundation stones are given critical emphasis in scripture on the exact dates they are laid down. This revival of God's work in restoring the Temple and Jerusalem in the post-exilic return took place in the "MIDST" of the millennium years (lasting from that 968/967 BC year until AD 33, when Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the former millennium type by His becoming the True Foundation Stone of the spiritual Temple not made with hands, and constructed of "living stones").

It is no accident that the surge of the major and minor prophetic ministries took place during these millennium years from 968/967 BC until AD 33. Dr. Hahn recognizes the importance of the surge in prophetic ministries during this millennium also. God was truly binding Satan's deception during that time. We are told that "The entrance of thy words giveth light" (Ps. 119:130). That means every time a prophet opened his mouth and said "Thus saith the Lord...", the powers of darkness were being beaten further back.

Hi chad kincham,

Have you ever read the Zechariah 14:4-5 verses in the LXX or other translations? It reads rather differently, as follows: "The valley between the hills will be FILLED IN, yes, it will be BLOCKED AS FAR AS AZAL, it will be FILLED IN as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah."

The Kidron Valley is situated on a seismic fault line. What do you think happens with an earthquake, when a mountain top breaks up and "leans" in all directions, as Zechariah predicted? This language described an earthquake LANDSLIDE that would take place, filling in the valleys, and blocking up the Valley as far as the Azal location. We know where "Azal" is on the map. It goes by the current name of the "Wadi Yasul", which is just past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem's wall.

Currently, there has been identification of TWO layers of landslide rubble, blocking up the Kidron Valley as far as the Azal location. Archaeology has dated these couple of landslide rubble layers to King Uzziah's time period - and also around the AD 70 period. To me, this offers proof that Christ already came to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70, taking the bodily-resurrected saints back with Him to heaven, just as He promised the disciples to "receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." As evidence that He has already come and gone, those valleys are filled in with landslide rubble from the Mount of Olives, just as Zechariah 14:4-5 predicted would happen with the earthquake occurring at Christ's return.

I find it very significant that the Temple plans given by Ezekiel for the post-exilic temple's construction decreed that the people assemble for worship in front of the Temple's eastern gate in the Sabbaths and the New moon celebrations. This eastern gate was to be shut the majority of the time, except for use by the "prince", who entered and left through it. I believe that this probably symbolizes that the eastern gate was very likely the portal across from the Mount of Olives through which all the resurrected saints passed to "meet the Lord in the air" and return to heaven with Him on Pentecost day in AD 70. That particular Temple's eastern gate was torn down by the end of Jerusalem's AD 70 destruction, after fulfilling its purpose. That Old Jerusalem has been replaced by the New Jerusalem, which is a spiritual city made without hands.

chad kincham said:

Jesus has not returned.

There are many proofs of that, but Zechariah 14 has Jesus coming again with all the saints in verse 5, landing on mount Olive - from where He ascended from - and He splits mount Olive in two, with a huge chasm in the middle.

This obviously has not yet happened

IMO the chasm is to give the city New Jerusalem a place to land when it comes down from heaven in Revelation 21.

And given that in Zechariah 14 Jesus makes Jerusalem His home after He comes again, that is another reason why the New Jerusalem comes down to the old Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

Zechariah 14:8
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

We Know Living waters Prophesy of Zexh 14 is a FULFILLED Prophesy for Chrst Himself Declared He Fulfilled in His day, which Cements the "That Day" of Zech 14 to the First century Apsotolic Generation:

John 7:38
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

As for the Split Mountain, Though I find @3 Resurrections information interesting, I tend to concur with the ECF Tertullian (A.D. 145-220) when he wrote:

"'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4].

Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy:

The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood, Cant. ii. 17. But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph. ii. 14.8

We also know the New Jerusalem Came in that Generation as well, for the Apostles Testified as much.

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Clare73 said:

Read it again.
Jesus said the Law would pass when everything had been accomplished, which will be his return in his Second Coming at the end of time for the Final Judgment (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Click to expand...

The Law has Passed. It is no longer Extant. It's Over.

Mark 13:1-31

Click to expand...

is a double prophecy woven in together of the end of the OT Church (destruction of Jerusalem) and the end of the temporal NT Church at the Second Coming at the end of time

Click to expand...

The term "Double Prophesy" is spun out of thin air and not from any Biblical teaching whatsoever. There is no such thing. There is Prophesy, and there is FULFILLMENT.
There is also not one single solitary scriptures that teaches of an "END OF TIME". Such is also an entirely unbiblical and Man made concept.

In contrast to the man made teaching of "The end of Time", Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33) and through it all, the Church will never fall (Matt 16:28) and indeed continues through all ages, world without end, amen (Eph 3:21)

It appears You may need a Sharpie to redact all these passages from your Bible for your doctrine to remain intact.

Hi parousia70,

Good to see you recognize the reference Christ made to the Zechariah 14 prophecy about "living water" from the indwelling Spirit that would flow from believers after Christ was glorified, when the Sprit was given to believers to dwell in them forever. This continual flow of the indwelling Spirit was inaugurated on Christ's resurrection day by His breathing on the disciples, saying "receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22). From that point on, it was "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, and their works do follow them."

Since that resurrection day in AD 33, this indwelling spring of the life-giving Spirit never ceased to be a feature of everyone who is in Christ. This would become even more obvious, once Jerusalem and its Temple's OT priesthood system was burned up, and the spiritual New Jerusalem was left unshaken without an earthly rival.

I can't really agree with Tertullian's or Matthew Henry's metaphoric interpretation of Christ's Olivet discourse being the prophesied occasion of His feet standing "IN THAT DAY" on the Mount of Olives. That's because, as you are aware, there is a string of no less than 16-17 things that would ALSO take place "IN THAT DAY"; each of them listed in the entire prophetic utterance from Zechariah chapter 12 through chapter 14. This included all the harrowing details of the "siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:2). To me, all those details of the siege and the takedown of earthly Jerusalem's Temple in AD 70 give a date for that prophesied return of Christ to the Mount of Olives. Bodily, since Christ never abandoned His human / divine resurrected body as our human / divine high priest mediator. Any return would necessarily mandate that Jesus's glorified, resurrected body make a literal "appearance" to those across the Kidron Valley within the besieged city of Jerusalem, when specifically, every one of their eyes looked upon Him whom they had pierced.

parousia70 said:

There is also not one single solitary scriptures that teaches of an "END OF TIME". Such is also an entirely unbiblical and Man made concept.

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Too true. Only a mention of "there shall be NO MORE DELAY", and "time of the end" - not an end of time itself.

3 Resurrections said:

Hi parousia70,

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Hya 3 Rezz

I can't really agree with Tertullian's or Matthew Henry's metaphoric interpretation of Christ's Olivet discourse being the prophesied occasion of His feet standing "IN THAT DAY" on the Mount of Olives. That's because, as you are aware, there is a string of no less than 16-17 things that would ALSO take place "IN THAT DAY"; each of them listed in the entire prophetic utterance from Zechariah chapter 12 through chapter 14.

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I guess I don't follow your objection after you assert the "In that day" of vs 14:8 was fulfilled by Christ at His Resurrection?
Is the "That Day" of vs 14:8 a different, unique "That Day" from all the other mentions of "in That Day" found in Zech 12-14?

I don't think either of us is asserting it's one, single, 24hr Day, but rather a span of years....Do you have a Maximum Span of years you allow for the Phrase "In That Day"?
I take it to be synonymous with the Last Days, Time of the end, End of the age, Last Hour.
the Apostolic Generation.

If you believe the "In that day" of 14:8 happened in 33AD, and the "In that day" of 12:2 happened some 40 years later, it would seem you agree...

Yet you Object.
Perhaps I'm missing something?

This included all the harrowing details of the "siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem." (Zech. 12:2). To me, all those details of the siege and the takedown of earthly Jerusalem's Temple in AD 70 give a date for that prophesied return of Christ to the Mount of Olives. Bodily, since Christ never abandoned His human / divine resurrected body as our human / divine high priest mediator.

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Yeah we have a diffierence of opinion on that for sure, I don't believe Christ's Body today is the self same fleshly Body that Hung on the Cross and was subsequently witnessed walking the earth after the Resurrection but before the acension.

But I wouldn't say it was "abandoned". More like "transformed".

Multiple scriptures support my position on this.

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen Him as He is Today:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

John, an eyewitness to the resurrected flesh body of Jesus, here testifies infallibly that it had not been revealed to him what Jesus presently, in Heaven, looks like. This indicates plainly that some sort of appreciable change to His appearance happened at or after the ascension, otherwise, John would not have said so.

Later, John was brought to heaven and witnessed Jesus Looking like this:

Revelation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So here again we have the apostle infallibly testifying that, In heaven, Jesus has taken the non-human form of a Lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes.... Unquestionably different physical features than he had when He ascended.

Jesus’ body was Transformed after His ascension according to Acts 9:3-6 and Revelation 1:13-16 such that it took on a form like that of the Father and the heavenly host. In describing the appearance of God, Ezekiel 1:26-28 reads:

Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.

Jesus’ resurrection body after His ascension into heaven is described with similar radiance and glory according to Revelation 1:13-16:

[A]nd among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.”

This OBVIOUSLY is completely different from ANY eyewitness account of His post-resurrection PRE ASCENSION Body. Something clearly, undeniably, Changed at the ascension, and not before.

Any return would necessarily mandate that Jesus's glorified, resurrected body make a literal "appearance" to those across the Hinnom Valley within the besieged city of Jerusalem, when specifically, every one of their eyes looked upon Him whom they had pierced.

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Not sure I subscribe to that... otherwise it seems I would have to subscribe to the same notion that Matthew 18:20 requires a Literal, physical appearance in order to be fulfilled:
Matthew 18:20

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

If He is currently in the flesh, does that mean every time two or three are gathered in His name, He appears in the flesh in their midst?

Pretty sure that's not your claim.

Interesting Duiscussion

parousia70 said:

The Law has Passed. It is no longer Extant. It's Over.

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It is subsumed into Jesus' two NT commands of Matthew 22:37-40 (Romans 13:8-10).

The term "Double Prophesy" is spun out of thin air and not from any Biblical teaching whatsoever. There is no such thing. There is Prophesy, and there is FULFILLMENT.

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You may not be the measure of all knowledge. . .

Jesus' prophecy of the end of time (i.e., the end of the NT temporal Church) contains within it the prophecy of the end of the OT Church (destruction of Jerusalem).

There is also not one single solitary scriptures that teaches of an "END OF TIME". Such is also an entirely unbiblical and Man made concept.

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Call it what you want. . .

There is a Final Judgment in the Last Day, the Day of the Lord, the end of the temporal Church (John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 1 Corinthians 1:8, 5:5; Philippians 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:6),
after which everything moves into the eternal; i.e., unending.

In English, we call that "the end of time" (the measurement of change).

In contrast to the man made teaching of "The end of Time", Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33) and through it all, the Church will never fall (Matt 16:28) and indeed continues through all ages, world without end, amen (Eph 3:21)

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So the end of time has to mean the end of existence?
Who made that rule?
Yep, the cosmos will exist forever. . .and in a new condition, the NEW heavens and earth, and in a new sphere, eternity.

It appears You may need a Sharpie to redact all these passages from your Bible for your doctrine to remain intact.

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Contrare. . .in my Bible all those passages are in agreement with mine above.

For me, Jesus came and conquered.

The futurists grasp at fantastical interpretations to suit their belief of impending doom and gloom.

Jesus Christ was 100% successful in His 'mission'.

Trust in Jesus

Hey again parousia70,

I consider the vision of the slain Lamb as a symbol in John's vision - not that Christ had actually morphed into a member of the animal kingdom. The animal kingdom needs no mediator for sins committed against God. Like must represent like before the throne of God, which is why Christ was STILL referred to by the "Son of MAN" title on the occasion of His second-coming return.

It takes one partaking of HUMANKIND to be the "daysman" between God and mankind. This is why Hebrews 7:24 tells us that Christ (unlike former high priests that had all died) "CONTINUETH EVER" - like Melchizedek - in that deathless, human / divine high-priestly identity. Otherwise, mankind has no representative before the Father that can "lay a hand on us both" (Job 9:33). The Son is "perfected for evermore" in that glorified body (Heb. 7:28), continually assuring our acceptance in God's eyes.

John also saw Christ in Rev. 12 as being in the womb of the woman clothed with the sun. That was a flashback vision John saw (similar to the Lamb vision) - not that Christ is permanently remaining in the womb today.

Ezekiel's vision you brought up took place before the Word became flesh as the incarnate Christ, so I don't necessarily refer to that appearance as the one Christ must adopt today. However, we are told in Mark 16:12 that the two on the road to Emmaus had Christ "appear in ANOTHER FORM" (hetera morphe) than the one which a weeping Mary Magdalene had just seen. This tells me that the resurrected human form of Christ could adopt different visual appearances. Explaining why John in the Spirit saw Christ in the vision with feet appearing like brass, etc.. Christ could "shape-shift", as it were.

Actually, this ability for the resurrected Christ to change appearances is quite important, since the risen Christ before He ascended to the Father had to offer Himself "WITHOUT SPOT" to God (Hebrews 9:14). If the crucifixion wounds had still been present on that occasion, Christ's sacrifice of Himself as the PERFECT high priest without blemish would have prevented Him being ordained as our high priest that resurrection morning in heaven when He first ascended to the Father. Once God had accepted Christ's perfect sacrifice and ordained Him as our high priest, Christ could then choose to display a form with those recognizable wounds so that His disciples later that evening would believe that He was the same Lord they had seen crucified earlier. As "joint heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:17), resurrected saints also share capabilities of changing form, becoming invisible, levitating, traveling at virtual speed-of-thought, being immune to death of all kinds, and having sinless perfection of body, soul, and spirit.

As far as Christ promising to be in the midst of two or three gathered together in His name, this was His Spirit which He promised to leave as a Comforter when His resurrected, glorified body ascended to heaven in Acts 1:9. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send IN MY NAME, He shall teach you all things..." Jesus promised in John 14:26. The Holy Spirit in Christ's name can be present here in our exchanged computer conversation as well.

What believers long for is to eventually be "face to face" with our glorified Redeemer. Job knew this (Job 19:26-27). So did Moses (Exodus 33:18). The fulfillment of an eventual physical union in Christ's presence is included in our inheritance, as well as the present spiritual union we have today. Ideally, a marriage includes both, does it not? And a human marriage was meant to mirror Christ and His church, wasn't it?

parousia70 said:

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen Him as He is Today:

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parousia70 said:

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

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This is a line of reasoning I have often heard before to dismiss Christ retaining his pre-ascension, bodily resurrected form. I would offer a slightly different interpretation. All it means is that the bodily resurrection for the saints (similar to Christ's) had simply not yet been manifested in real time yet as John was writing. The event was still in the near future for them at that time. This does not necessarily mean that John was ignorant of what Christ's glorified, resurrected body looked like. After all, John 1:14 said John had already testified that they had SEEN the GLORY of the risen Lord after He had become the first and (as of that time) the only-begotten of the Father. To be "begotten" meant that a resurrected human form had ascended to heaven and been "brought near before the Ancient of Days" in God's very presence (as in "this day have I begotten thee..."). This earned Christ the title of the "FIRST-born" ever to do this on the morning after His resurrection. And John said that they had already seen Christ in this glorified state of being the "only begotten of the Father". Christ gave the disciples a 40-day manifestation period of seeing Him in this glorified, resurrected form.

Don't forget those Matthew 27:52-53 saints also. Their glorified, resurrected bodies were "seen of many" in the city of Jerusalem that Passover week. LOTS of witnesses in those jam-packed streets during the festivities. Even Quadratus wrote to emperor Hadrian that Christ had done bona fide resurrections and healings that were witnessed for a long time among the church.

And though many don't agree with this point, I believe scripture gives us evidence that the resurrected Lazarus (full name John Eleazar) was the writer of John's epistles, the gospel of John, and also Revelation. So of course, being one that was actually raised from the dead by Christ himself, Lazarus / John Eleazar knew very well what a resurrected saint's condition was like. I can thank Full-Preterist Pastor Dave Curtis for first introducing me to the proof for this, which I have since heard proven from various other sources as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong Lost4words, but is that a Corgi pup in your avatar? Belongs to you? I don't know my breeds all that well, but it's distractingly cute.