"again crucify to themselves the Son of God" ?

Bible Highlighter said:

So you believe that Christians can sin and still be saved?
What do you make of Jude 1:4 that says this?

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.” (Jude 1:4).

I believe they are denying the Lord by their being reprobate unto all good works.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).



As for your mention of pride:

The Bible talks about that.
Do you agree with the following words below by the apostle Paul?
What do you think they say?

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James 4:6 says God resists the proud, and he gives grace to the humble.

What do you think Paul meant when he said this?

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).



And Jesus told two people to: “sin no more,” too (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
The problem in the “Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee” is that the Pharisee was trying to make it on his good deeds alone without God’s grace. Believers need to first be saved by God’s grace before they can move on to doing anything good by God’s power working through them. The Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is not a case for turning God’s grace into a license for immorality.

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Stop accusing me of rejecting scripture. As a logician I despise brute force solutions. Simplicity is elegant and to the point.

You cannot simultaneously love your neighbor and hold an impossible standard over them. You cannot simultaneously hold an impossible standard over your neighbor, and fulfill that standard, which all hinges upon two commands.

Brightfame52 said:

Its simple, the saved cant apostacize !

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Hebrews 6:4-6 basically says it is impossible for those who have been once enlightened and having the Holy Spirit, etc. to fall away so as to renew themselves back to the faith by repentance again. So yes. They can apostatize because why bring up such a possibility if such a thing was not possible? Why would the author of Hebrews assure his audience of better things in verse 9 if there are those who can qualify for the action in Hebrews 6:4-9?

TheWhat? said:

Stop accusing me of rejecting scripture. As a logician I despise brute force solutions. Simplicity is elegant and to the point.

You cannot simultaneously love your neighbor and hold an impossible standard over them. You cannot simultaneously hold an impossible standard over your neighbor, and fulfill that standard, which all hinges upon two commands.

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I am asking you to explain Scripture that appears to contradict your belief.
So far you have not done that.

Bible Highlighter said:

I am asking you to explain Scripture that appears to contradict your belief.
So far you have not done that.

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What belief are you referring to? You cannot earn your way into salvation. It is impossible.

Bible Highlighter said:

Hebrews 6:4-6 basically says it is impossible for those who have been once enlightened and having the Holy Spirit, etc. to fall away so as to renew themselves back to the faith by repentance again. So yes. They can apostatize because why bring up such a possibility if such a thing was not possible? Why would the author of Hebrews assure his audience of better things in verse 9 if there are those who can qualify for the action in Hebrews 6:4-9?

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Those who fall away never had salvation. They may have experience those other things to some degree, but they didnt have Salvation.

TheWhat? said:

Stop accusing me of rejecting scripture. As a logician I despise brute force solutions. Simplicity is elegant and to the point.

You cannot simultaneously love your neighbor and hold an impossible standard over them. You cannot simultaneously hold an impossible standard over your neighbor, and fulfill that standard, which all hinges upon two commands.

Click to expand...

You may run into some problems with God on that. . ."brute force" as in

"Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

". . .whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36J)

Clare73 said:

God moves one toward him by changing one's disposition (what one prefers) to prefer God,
and one then does not refuse God, because one then prefers God, and we feeely and willingly choose what we prefer, not contrary to it.

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That's a theory, not in line with the old time religion. He definitely works on our wills, and we can't will rightly without Him, but he still doesn't cause us to be totally disposed one way. Man is left in the hands of his own counsel-he's a morally accountable being and we're drawn, informed, tested, and refined here to make the right choice-and continue to-if we will. Otherwise the Christian faith has no purpose, makes no sense.

TheWhat? said:

What belief are you referring to? You cannot earn your way into salvation. It is impossible.

Click to expand...

Where did I ever say you have to earn your salvation?

Anyways, when I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.) (Note: The best way to describe the Provisional Atonement is like a man who paid the price to pay off your debts by his handing you a check to be debt free; But it is up to you to receive the check, deposit it into your checking account, and pay off those you are in debt to; It's a gift, but like all good gifts in life, you have to receive the gift and use it properly to be of any benefit). Jesus provided an atonement, but it is up to us to receive it to personally apply to our lives by having a proper faith. Men will remain as sinners if they reject the Provisional Atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus provided a provisional atonement (salvation) in dealing with sin as a way of escape for mankind to be saved through accepting Him (Who is the gift).

#2. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and by properly applying the Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly apply God's grace through faith in Christ, and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

God's grace, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are saved by His grace, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

TheWhat? said:

What belief are you referring to? You cannot earn your way into salvation. It is impossible.

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I am asking you to define the verses I put forth to you.
Lets just start with one of the early passages I put forth to you.
How do you explain Matthew 5:28-30?
Do you believe a person can be cast bodily into hellfire for looking upon so woman in lust?
Yes, or no?

Clare73 said:

You may run into some problems with God on that. . ."brute force" as in

"Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

". . .whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36J)

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Yeah, I don't see that in the character of God on the cross. Upon him, yes. His enemies were nonetheless murderers.

Bible Highlighter said:

Yes, I would agree with that assessment. But those who are seeking to be justified by Law wrongfully are not openly rejecting Christ. They believe in Christ, but they are also wrongfully trying to be justified by the Law, too. This is not the same scenario for the person in Hebrews 6:4-6. In this case, they are believers who are seeking to go back to the Old Law entirely whereby they would be denying Jesus or denying in being a Christian so as to avoid persecution.

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Ahh ok I see your point now. Perhaps these are the Jews who are being blinded by God until the last Gentile comes to Christ? Romans 11:28-32

TheWhat? said:

What belief are you referring to? You cannot earn your way into salvation. It is impossible.

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Amen we cannot earn salvation but there are still conditions that God expects us to meet.

Bible Highlighter said:

I am asking you to define the verses I put forth to you.
Lets just start with one of the early passages I put forth to you.
How do you explain Matthew 5:28-30?
Do you believe a person can be cast bodily into hellfire for looking upon so woman in lust?
Yes, or no?

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This is beginning to sound like an inquisition. I'll tell you this much: the truth doesn't change.

The word used in the gospel in that particular conversation is the same Paul used when paraphrasing the law on covetousness, epithymeō. Jesus was commenting on the law, in that conversation -- the same law that He says hinges on two commands.

IF YOU THINK that He intended to introduce a standard we can use to justify the castration of little boys, I will tell you, you are in for a rude surprise. What you should do, rather, is meditate on the law and examine your heart rather than your loins, and especially not your neighbor's.

Bible Highlighter said:

Where did I ever say you have to earn your salvation?

Anyways, when I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.) (Note: The best way to describe the Provisional Atonement is like a man who paid the price to pay off your debts by his handing you a check to be debt free; But it is up to you to receive the check, deposit it into your checking account, and pay off those you are in debt to; It's a gift, but like all good gifts in life, you have to receive the gift and use it properly to be of any benefit). Jesus provided an atonement, but it is up to us to receive it to personally apply to our lives by having a proper faith. Men will remain as sinners if they reject the Provisional Atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus provided a provisional atonement (salvation) in dealing with sin as a way of escape for mankind to be saved through accepting Him (Who is the gift).

#2. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and by properly applying the Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly God's grace through faith in Christ, and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

God's grace, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are saved by His grace, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

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That's awfully wordy. Had you been caught up to pardes I suspect you'd be able to make sense of the text. In my experience, I cannot stop from noticing the innate, irrational desire of others to continue to crucify -- I'm not afforded that option.

fhansen said:

That's a theory, not in line with the old time relgion. He definitely works on our wills, and we can't will rightly without Him,

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It's definitely in line with Scripture:
'He works (accomplishes) in us both to will and to act according to his good purpose. Who's sovereign there? (Phlippians 2:13)

"He chose us to be holy and blameless in his sight, he predestined us to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." Who's sovereign there? (Ephesians 5:4-5)

We were "predestined according to the plan of him who works out (accomplishes) everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." Who's sovereign there? (Ephesians 5:11).

but he still doesn't cause us to be totally disposed one way.

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Sounds to me like he does. . .and according to his will.

He moves the preference of our disposition toward him, and we then freely choose according to that preference.
Who would actually prefer God, and reject him at the same time?

Man is left in the hands of his own counsel

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According to the NT, unregenerate man left in the hands of his own counsel

"does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them and they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14) and he wants no part of it, for

"the unregenerate mind is hostile to God, it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the ungenerate mind cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8)

That is God's revelation regarding fallen unregenerate man. . .whether it be "the old time religion" or not.

-he's a morally accountable being and we're drawn, informed, tested, and refined here to make the right choice-and continue to-if we will.
Otherwise the Christian faith has no purpose, makes no sense.

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What kind of "purpose" and "sense" are you looking for?

The purpose is shown above. Regarding its making sense:

We are God's enemies (Romans 5:10).
He owes no one anything but justice.
He has given us that based on our unregenerate sinful rebellious nature.
If he chooses to work in the hearts of some of his enemies, changing their rebellion to submission, adopting them as his sons, and bringing many sons to glory, where is the injustice?
He doesn't owe that to anyone.
All very sensible, reasonable and just, not to mention sovereign.

What kind of "sense" are you looking for?

How well do you really know your "old time religion"?
Maybe Aquinas would help.

Clare73 said:

All very sensible, reasonable and just

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Makes no sense at all-He may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and punished the rest eternally (for something He caused in them to begin with) if He's pulling all the strings anyway. Be a pretty dull Guy, tho.

TheWhat? said:

Yeah, I don't see that in the character of God on the cross. Upon him, yes. His enemies were nonetheless murderers.

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Are you saying the word of God in John 3:18, 36 is contrary to Jesus on the cross?

fhansen said:

Makes no sense at all-He may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and punished the rest eternally (for something He caused in them to begin with) if He's pulling all the strings anyway. Be a pretty dull Guy, tho.

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Maybe just "stocking heaven" was not his intention.
Maybe he wanted an appreciating love born of the experience of his provision in hopelessness.

I dunno'. . .converting the hearts of one's enemies to hearts of subjects, loving and adoring you, and then adopting them into the royal family sounds pretty awesome to me.

Maybe your wisdom and ways are not his, maybe his are much higher than yours (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Guess it all depends on your reference points.

Clare73 said:

Are you saying the word of God in John 3:18, 36 is contrary to Jesus on the cross?

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What I'm saying is, if you can't look at the crucifixion of Christ and see the truth, you're not seeing it.

TheWhat? said:

What I'm saying is, if you can't look at the crucifixion of Christ and see the truth, you're not seeing it.

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All very nebulous. . .spiritual mish-mash. . .musings. . .no basis in Scripture.

Nail it down for me with Scripture, in light of the whole counsel of God.

BNR32FAN said:

Ahh ok I see your point now. Perhaps these are the Jews who are being blinded by God until the last Gentile comes to Christ? Romans 11:28-32

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I think the Galatians believers who are seeking to be justified by the Old Law (who were deceived by the Jews) is not in referenced to the Jew in Romans 11:28-32. I see Romans 11:28-32 as referring to the unsaved Jew who has never came to Christ. The audience of the book of Galatians is primarily the Galatian believers (Who accepted Christ), and not the Jew who needed to be saved.