When it comes to the Taliban, some politicians are delusional

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,366
493
✟113,699.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Humvees are the way ammunition is moved. I've already explained that. But as you know, several sources show that the Afghan army in the field turned over millions of rounds of ammunition.

This is not some kind of Walmart deal - buy a humvee and get so much "free" ammo thrown in.

It is possible for a humvee not to contain ammunition. Has that possibility occurred to you?

So again (since your non answer was totally inadequate) given we were discussing ammunition why did you show a picture of a humvee?

Would you like it better if I showed you a bullet?
Unnecessary since I've already done that for your benefit.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,305
76
✟363,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
This is not some kind of Walmart deal - buy a humvee and get so much "free" ammo thrown in.

It's just what they had in the Humvees.

It is possible for a humvee not to contain ammunition. Has that possibility occurred to you?

I suppose it's possible that troops go out into combat and forget to bring their ammunition. But it seems unlikely, doesn't it?
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,305
76
✟363,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Would you like it better if I showed you a bullet?

Unnecessary since I've already done that for your benefit.

You now seem to realize that the vehicles used by soldiers also carried the ammunition they use, so I think we're done here.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,305
76
✟363,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Vanellus said:
So how many of the many articles you linked have you actually read through?

Here's a hint that might give you some idea:
How many of those articles have I quoted here?

Think about it. Take your time.

You are reluctant to give a direct answer to my question.

You're not good at puzzles, are you? I'll give you the answer. I read all the links for which I gave you quotes. It's not possible to include all of the article, and not even legal in some cases, so I read through to find the section that most accurately gave the gist of the article.

I bet you could have figured that out, if you worked at it.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,366
493
✟113,699.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Here's a hint that might give you some idea:
How many of those articles have I quoted here?

Think about it. Take your time.

You're not good at puzzles, are you? I'll give you the answer. I read all the links for which I gave you quotes. It's not possible to include all of the article, and not even legal in some cases, so I read through to find the section that most accurately gave the gist of the article.

I bet you could have figured that out, if you worked at it.
Except that you didn't remember that the partial quote I gave from the CNN article was about ammunition, not humvees. And you've tried to justify that with this irrelevance about humvees that contain soldiers who carry ammo.
I think the simplest answer is that you don't read all through all the articles you link but you seem to expect other forum members to do so! But given the lack of response from other forum members to your posts with long lists of articles (e.g. #102), the reasonable conclusion is that they are a waste of both time and space.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,305
76
✟363,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Except that you didn't remember that the partial quote I gave from the CNN article was about ammunition, not humvees.

I showed you that the Afghan army turned over millions of rounds of ammunition to the Taliban. I showed you more than once. Did you miss those?

I even posted quotes from the sources to which I linked. I think the simplest answer is that you don't read posts and links very carefully, but you seem to expect other forum members to read yours.

the reasonable conclusion is that they are a waste of both time and space.

Right wing extremists look on facts the way a vampire regards a crucifix. We all get that. But do go back and read the material I quote from the links. It will clear up most of the stuff you don't know.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,305
76
✟363,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Not if the soldiers don't have any ammunition!

Somehow,they came up with millions of rounds of ammunition to give to the Taliban. So, the evidence indicates your assumption is a bad one.
 
Upvote 0

Hvizsgyak

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 28, 2021
586
253
60
Spring Hill
✟94,467.00
Country
United States
Faith
Byzantine Catholic
Marital Status
Married
With all due respect to him, I don’t think this is about contemporary politics. I don’t blame Biden for this. I blame Bush. He got us involved in Afghanistan and Iraq, and both wars have been catastrophic failures. This is sad, and horrible, and Trump seemed to think that both wars were terrible ideas, too, and wanted us out.

Please don't take this as being mean-spirited but how old are you roughly (I know thats a question your not suppose to ask a woman but...)? I remember those days (like they happened yesterday) when those terrorists rammed those jets into the World Trade Centers, the Pentagon, and the unsuccessful (thank God) Pennsylvania field. Our nation had to respond in some fashion for all those innocent lives taken on that day. And it wasn't out of revenge, it was out of justice. If there was some way to have apprehended those terrorists who organized the attacks, the US should have done so (I have no answers there) but our intelligence on the ground, our military, and our leaders (most of them) said war was inevitable.

But once again with war, we learn it never solves a problem. The days of conquering a land and forcing your values on a people are way over. At the time though, people of America wanted something done for the terroristic acts and most of our leaders responded the only way they knew how. So don't blame then Pres Bush. How does one respond to jets filled with beautiful human beings being slammed into building or the ground at a high speed.

Diplomacy should have happened even further back when we supported the Afgan Rebels against the Soviet Union. All in the name of democracy and capitalism. You could probably take these ills even further back. Its a crazy world we live in. All we can do is pray and follow our God's ways
 
  • Useful
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Please don't take this as being mean-spirited but how old are you roughly (I know thats a question your not suppose to ask a woman but...)? I remember those days (like they happened yesterday) when those terrorists rammed those jets into the World Trade Centers, the Pentagon, and the unsuccessful (thank God) Pennsylvania field. Our nation had to respond in some fashion for all those innocent lives taken on that day. And it wasn't out of revenge, it was out of justice. If there was some way to have apprehended those terrorists who organized the attacks, the US should have done so (I have no answers there) but our intelligence on the ground, our military, and our leaders (most of them) said war was inevitable.

But once again with war, we learn it never solves a problem. The days of conquering a land and forcing your values on a people are way over. At the time though, people of America wanted something done for the terroristic acts and most of our leaders responded the only way they knew how. So don't blame then Pres Bush. How does one respond to jets filled with beautiful human beings being slammed into building or the ground at a high speed.

Diplomacy should have happened even further back when we supported the Afgan Rebels against the Soviet Union. All in the name of democracy and capitalism. You could probably take these ills even further back. Its a crazy world we live in. All we can do is pray and follow our God's ways
I’m 37.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And I agree with a lot of what you said above. I’m just disturbed and puzzled and cheesed off that after 20 years, the Taliban is back, and more brutal and disgusting than ever. Worse, in fact. What did we accomplish? How could this have gone better?
 
Upvote 0

Hvizsgyak

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 28, 2021
586
253
60
Spring Hill
✟94,467.00
Country
United States
Faith
Byzantine Catholic
Marital Status
Married
And I agree with a lot of what you said above. I’m just disturbed and puzzled and cheesed off that after 20 years, the Taliban is back, and more brutal and disgusting than ever. Worse, in fact. What did we accomplish? How could this have gone better?

Yep, we could have done much better. Nothing really seems to have changed in Afghanistan; all the lives lost there; this is very sad.

I'm right with you. And I won't blame Pres Biden in anyway either; he did what he wanted to do and that was to get the US out of there.

That was generous of you to respond back with your age. You did live through that time period, it was a very, very dark day in everyone's life. God bless you.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yep, we could have done much better. Nothing really seems to have changed in Afghanistan; all the lives lost there; this is very sad.

I'm right with you. And I won't blame Pres Biden in anyway either; he did what he wanted to do and that was to get the US out of there.

That was generous of you to respond back with your age. You did live through that time period, it was a very, very dark day in everyone's life. God bless you.
God bless you, too. I remember being in high school as Bush announced our invasion of Iraq, and you had dozens of high school kids screaming “No!!!!!” at the television they’d wheeled in to social studies so we could watch this. No one wanted that. Everyone felt it was a bad idea. High school kids could see it was a bad idea.

But, like you said, at the time, admittedly, Afghanistan felt justified. It was a horrible idea in hindsight, though, and I wish I knew what we could have done differently there. Bring back the old monarchy? Would that have worked? I don’t know.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,366
493
✟113,699.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I showed you that the Afghan army turned over millions of rounds of ammunition to the Taliban. I showed you more than once. Did you miss those?
I even posted quotes from the sources to which I linked. I think the simplest answer is that you don't read posts and links very carefully, but you seem to expect other forum members to read yours.

Recall:
My Post 113 I wrote:
""Some of this no doubt fell into Taliban hands, officials say"
Sounds like "opinion" to me!
The "opinion" is the "no doubt" bit: it comes from the meaning of English. It means the "officials" didn't actually witness the "some of this" falling into Taliban hands. We have seen pictures of the Taliban with military equipment. But remember the original issue was were Afghan soldiers forced to give up because of lack of ammunition. A picture of the Taliban riding a humvee does not disprove this.
This was a quote from the CNN article you linked in your post 112 (2nd link). It was the part of that article about ammunition which was what we were discussing following my posting of an extract from Le Monde newspaper. Note we were discussing ammunition not military vehicles. You claimed to have read this article.
In response (post 114) you didn't specify bullets, but humvees, Black Hawks, surface to air missiles and rifles. (rifles aren't bullets either). When challenged you went through a series of verbal gymnastics to try to justify that when you specified humvees you really meant ammunition. Btw do surface to air missiles ever carry bullets? Maybe you would care to explain away that one as well!

It was then clear to me from this evidence that though you include links to many articles in your posts, presumably expecting others to read them, you don't actually read these articles through yourself.

This CNN article (from which I quoted a section about ammunition) was the one with the "millions of rounds of ammo" in its title. So, according to your reasoning, I had read it since I quoted from it (the relevant part). Your post 114 showed that you hadn't (at that time) read the article. You might have done since of course.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,366
493
✟113,699.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Right wing extremists look on facts the way a vampire regards a crucifix. We all get that.

Where do you get the idea that I'm a "right wing extremist". Because I dared to criticise Biden?
I am a member of the UK Labour Party and stood (in a Tory/Lib Dem marginal) in the 2017 General Election. Of course you could be so far to the left you regard the UK Labour Party as extreme right wing. Do you?

If your answer is yes then I think your left wing extremism (in US terms) would take you beyond Neptune. I think you will be lonely that far out and the rarefied atmosphere hard to survive on!

I haven't labelled you as far right or far left or anything like that. This kind of misjudged labelling is unhelpful and not irenic.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,305
76
✟363,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Where do you get the idea that I'm a "right wing extremist".

Didn't say you were. I merely noted that right-wing extremists are kind of wary of facts.

Because I dared to criticise Biden?

Left-wing extremists criticize him, too. I didn't say you were one of those, either.

I am a member of the UK Labour Party and stood (in a Tory/Lib Dem marginal) in the 2017 General Election.

You see? Labour has drifted farther left as they remain out of power. It's been what, fifteen years?

I haven't labelled you as far right or far left or anything like that.

See above. You've certainly come closer than I did.

The "opinion" is the "no doubt" bit: it comes from the meaning of English. It means the "officials" didn't actually witness the "some of this" falling into Taliban hands. We have seen pictures of the Taliban with military equipment. But remember the original issue was were Afghan soldiers forced to give up because of lack of ammunition.

That opinion seems unlikely to be true, seeing as the Taliban seized millions of rounds of ammunition from them. (see above) That doesn't qualify as "a lack" in any sense of the word. That fact was not only in the links I gave you; I also quoted it in several places.

It was then clear to me from this evidence that though I included links to articles demonstrating that fact, and even quoted them for you, you didn't even read what I quoted for you, much less the articles cited.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,366
493
✟113,699.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God bless you, too. I remember being in high school as Bush announced our invasion of Iraq, and you had dozens of high school kids screaming “No!!!!!” at the television they’d wheeled in to social studies so we could watch this. No one wanted that. Everyone felt it was a bad idea. High school kids could see it was a bad idea.

But, like you said, at the time, admittedly, Afghanistan felt justified. It was a horrible idea in hindsight, though, and I wish I knew what we could have done differently there. Bring back the old monarchy? Would that have worked? I don’t know.

OBL was mostly (if not entirely) in the eastern borderlands of Afghanistan from 9/11 onwards and probably moved to Pakistan after the Tora Bora attack in 2007 and more certainly after 2009. Of course, by that time the mission had morphed from catch the terrorists to reform the country. But Afghanistan, like Iraq is a divided country although the lines of division are somewhat different. I can't see how the Taliban can be so successful without at least support from part of the population, but under the Taliban the large numbers who don't want them are going to suffer badly.

There was a measure of democracy and progress in the 60s constitutional monarchy but corruption and inefficiency led to the coups of the 1970s and a USSR backed government - better for women's rights but also more repressive than before. Was the US right to support the mujahideen rebels at this time? In hindsight probably not. Pakistan than and now have played a nefarious role in all this, but there are clearly many people in Afghanistan who don't want to live in a Taliban dominated country.
 
Upvote 0

Vanellus

Newbie
Sep 15, 2014
1,366
493
✟113,699.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Didn't say you were. I merely noted that right-wing extremists are kind of wary of facts.



Left-wing extremists criticize him, too. I didn't say you were one of those, either.



You see? Labour has drifted farther left as they remain out of power. It's been what, fifteen years?



See above. You've certainly come closer than I did.



That opinion seems unlikely to be true, seeing as the Taliban seized millions of rounds of ammunition from them. (see above) That doesn't qualify as "a lack" in any sense of the word. That fact was not only in the links I gave you; I also quoted it in several places.

It was then clear to me from this evidence that though I included links to articles demonstrating that fact, and even quoted them for you, you didn't even read what I quoted for you, much less the articles cited.
So this "right wing extremist" was just some random expression you plucked out of thin air.
It was in a response to one of my posts and the implication was as clear as crystal. Now that you know you were wrong you are pulling back from it, but trying to avoid admitting you were wrong.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
25,918
11,305
76
✟363,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
So this "right wing extremist" was just some random expression you plucked out of thin air.

Inference from evidence. Right wing extremists, you may have noticed here, tend to avoid evidence in favor of unsupported declarations. Didn't say who they might be.

You seem to have finally realized that you were wrong about the ammunition assumption, and are pulling back from it, to go off on a bunny trail to avoid admitting you were wrong.

Bottom line? There is abundant evidence that the Afghan army had more than enough ammunition. Otherwise, the Taliban would not have millions of rounds from that army when they surrendered or switched sides.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,140
20,187
US
✟1,441,679.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What the administration got wrong was not the Taliban’s strength, which most analysts knew perfectly well. What it mistook was the strength of the Afghan government. In province after province, leaders literally handed the keys over to the Taliban.

In Ghazni, the governor “simply handed over his office to a senior Taliban commander. ‘He gave a flower to the Taliban commander and congratulated him,’” said an employee of the governor. Ismail Khan, a warlord known as “the Lion of Herat” appeared in a video released by the Taliban after his surrender saying “I hope all brothers can create a peaceful environment, so the war ends and we can have peace and stabilization in Afghanistan.” Only three months ago, former president Ashraf Ghani was telling Der Spiegel that his government could resist the Taliban “forever. If I did anything, it was to prepare our forces for this situation.”

https://www.cato.org/blog/afghanistan-lies-delusions-bitter-end
Empires do not stay in Afghanistan because it is mainly not worth the cost of doing so, though maybe the Russians were the exception there. The Americans like the British before them are not being forced out.

The error here appears to be with Command and Control not passing up accurate information about the situation of the ground to the president. Biden, therefore, assumed the Afghan army was being paid by the generals who received American cash and would fight for their own country even though the intelligence was that they would not and that the whole system was completely corrupt. He failed to anticipate the catastrophic effect on morale that occurred when the Americans left and the withdrawal plan was wrong and poorly executed. He thought he had more time and that this would all occur in a leisurely manner rather than the mad panic that we see.

I would point out that the attacks on the US were carried out by Saudi and Egyptian Wahhabis, not Afghans. The Taliban allowed the Saudi and Egyptian Wahhabis to use their territory, but were not involved themselves.

The mission should have always been to wipe out those particular Saudis and Egyptians, and further, the US government should have acknowledged that it was specifically Wahhabis supported primarily by Saudi Arabia that is responsible for all of the terrorism in the West. The Taliban have not been part of that, and still are not.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Barbarian
Upvote 0