THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY!

LoveGodsWord · Aug 21, 2021

swordsman1 said:
So you admit you are not a Greek scholar, but then proceed to regurgitate your exact same argument for mistranslation from your previous post. Why should we believe you (a self confessed amateur of the Greek) over the numerous Koine Greek experts who have translated Didache 1:14 as "the Lord's Day"?

Roberts & Donaldson "But every Lord's day..."
J.B. Lightfoot " And on the Lord's own day...."
Charles H. Hoole "But on the Lord's day...."
Kirsopp Lake "On the Lord's Day...."
Tony Jones "On the Lord’s day, "
Rick Brannan "And coming together on the Lord's day...."
M.B. Riddle "But every Lord's day...."
Hitchcock and Brown "But on the Lord's day...."
Herbert W. Armstrong "Now according to the Lord's day...."

As posted earlier, I never claimed to be a Greek scholar. I know enough about Greek and Hebrew however to ask questions and search out information and provided you with Greek scholarly criticism of Didache 14:1 from the original Greek and Jewish culture in regards to day reckoning as well as supporting references from Greek scholars showing that there is criticism that the translation of Didache 14.1 is a mistranslation because the Greek word for [day] is not in the original Greek and is a supplied word added in from the translators with no reference point to any Greek words for time (e.g. week). Your post here is repetition already addressed in details showing undisputable proof from the original Greek that Didache 14:1 which is the only place translated as "Lords day" from Lords of Lord (changed to Lords day by the translators adding in day) is used in the Didache changing the Greek meaning of the manuscript. (evidence and undisputable proof already posted from the Greek in post # 362; post # 387 linked. See also scholarly criticism of Didache 14.1 translated to "Lords day" in Ambiguous references and The Lord's day of Revelation 1:10 the current debate)

Once again in order for you or anyone else here to prove that the man-made teaching and tradition of the early Church's reference to "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 means Sunday or the first day of the week you need to show from scripture that "the Lords day" means Sunday. - You haven't because there is no scripture that supports this teaching because it is not biblical and cannot be shown in scripture. Therefore in order for you to make your teachings work you need to try and look outside of scripture. Does this not concern you? It should.

swordsman1 said:
The reason they do this, as I explained in my previous post, was because it was common in the Greek (and still is today) to drop the word 'day' when referring to days of the week.
So for instance in

Magnesians 9:1 "no longer celebrate the Sabbath, but live for the Lord's day", the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it is just "the Lord's" (κυριακὴν).

In Gospel of Peter 35 "Now during the night as the Lord’s Day dawned", the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it is just "the Lord's" (κυριακὴν).

In Gospel of Peter 50 "Now, early in the morning on the Lord’s day, Mary Magdalene", the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it is just "the Lord's" (κυριακὴν).

in Didache 8:1 "Rather, fast on the fourth day" the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it just says "the fourth" - the common word for Wednesday (see BDAG in my previous post)

In Jer 52:12 (LXX) "On the tenth day of the fifth month " the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it just says "the tenth".

None of the sources outside of the bible that you have supplied here helps your argument at all but let me explain why. The problem here when discussing the mistranslation of Didache 14.1 to "the Lord's day" is that when a [day] is added in by the translators in the Hebrew and the Greek as posted to you earlier from post # 362; post # 387 linked, there needs to be a reference point to time (eg. First of the week). There is no reference point to time in Didache 14.1. As posted earlier in Jewish culture the naming of the days in the Hebrew (unlike the the Romans and the Greeks) used Gods' Word for the naming of the days and if "day" is not in the Greek text the reference point used by the translators in adding the English word day is to "week" (e.g first of the week is equivalent to first day of the week which is equivalent to Sunday our time). So as posted earlier the reference point for a Greek translator to add the word [day] is "week" first of the week means first day of the week in Jewish culture (see the example of John 20:19 see original Greek context to week here). The Didache 14.1 original Greek has no reference point to time and no reason to add the word "day" which is not in the original Greek. This is the textual criticism shown earlier that demonstrates a mistranslation of Didache 14.1. Also you may want to consider that in Revelation 1:10 in the Koine Greek is τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" the Greek word for "day" (ἡμέρᾳ) is in the original Greek and is not supplied by the translator.

swordsman1 said:
No, Wikipedia is NOT is scholarly criticism. Anyone can edit a wikipedia page, including amateurs such as yourself. So that page on the subject of "the Lord's Day", a controversial topic for SDA's, has most likely been heavily edited by them. Show me proper peer-reviewed material by genuine scholars, such as seminary professors, that argues that Didache 14:1 has been mistranslated by all Koine Greek experts.

You do know that there are links to various papers used in the Ambiguous references section of wiki right? I am sure you can find your own references.

Here is a few...

1. The Lord's day of Revelation 1:10 the current debate by Ranko Stefanovic
2. The Sabbath in Scripture and History by Kenneth Strand

Scripture should be the reference point here as to what is "the Lord's day" and is the purpose of this OP but you have not provided any to prove that Sunday is "the Lords day".

swordsman1 said:
So? Scholars do that for all Koine Greek documents that are undated, including the books in scripture.They make an educated assessment based on known data. Some are obviously wrong such as those that date the Didache after 170ad as they have overlooked the fact that it is referred to by the church fathers from that time. But dozens of scholars have studied the Didache and each has given us their own estimated date. From that we can draw a CONSENSUS, and that turns out to be mid to late 1st Century. Very few modern scholars date it later than the 1st century. That is before the time John wrote Revelation. From looking at the Didache, along with other similar documents from the time, we can be sure that "the Lord's day" was a term used by Christians at this time to refer to Sunday, the day they met together. Which is why the ALL respected commentators of Rev 1:14, agree that John was referring to Sunday.

As posted earlier speculation is not evidence when there is no reference point to prove time in both the dating of the Didache and also to add the Greek word day as shown earlier into Didache 14:1. It is at best a guess based on speculation which is why there is such a widely agreed time of the writing of the Didache (100 to 400 AD). That said as posted earlier it makes no difference as the Greek word to day is not supplied in the Greek in Didache 14.1 as already shown in the original Greek text and once again there is no scripture that supports this man-made teaching of the early Church that Sunday is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10. Without scripture everything else is simply a distraction from God's Word.

swordsman1 said:
Did you not read the source you just quoted? Even that says "The work was probably composed between 80 and 110." How can it be speculation, when the article gives REASONS for the dating the Didache at mid-late first century? A date which the majority consensus of scholars agree. Unless of course you can refute those reasons?

Indeed I did read it and posted the quote from your reference you provided which showed a wide range of speculated dates from 50 AD to 190 AD. You were also provided other references from 200 to 400 AD. "Probably" is the key word you provided here which is speculation as no one knows because there is no date or author of the didache. The simple fact is the scholars do not know. They are speculating. Which was the point I was making.

swordsman1 said:
Neither does scripture say that "the Lord's day" is the sabbath. So when interpreting scripture we use the established principles of hermeneutics which allows us to look at the historical context. And that shows us that the term was in widespread use at the time John wrote Revelation as a reference to Sunday, the day on which Christians met. So, rather than performing elaborate exegetical acrobatics as you did in the OP to come up with the idea that the Lord's day is the sabbath, we can be far more certain that John was using a term that both he and his audience would commonly understand as being Sunday.

I respectfully disagree. As shown from the scriptures in the OP.

1. The Greek word meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" means pertaining to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day from Revelation 1:10

2. The scriptures prove the authority of Jesus to claim he is Lord of the Sabbath day because he is the creator of it *Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 ; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 2:1-3. So in the scriptures above Jesus claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath day (not Sunday)

3. The scriptures also show the claim of Jesus and God's ownership of the Sabbath day * Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 31:12-18; Leviticus 19:30; Ezekiel 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:15; Leviticus 23:3; Exodus 31:15; Exodus 20:10.

The scriptures provided in all three points above, collectively as a whole demonstrate that the Sabbath as shown through scripture is "the Lord's day" as described in Revelation 1:10 as "the Lords day" that Jesus claims authority over is the Sabbath day as he is the creator of it. God and Jesus also claiming ownership of the Sabbath as their Holy day of rest made at creation. The Lord' day therefore is the Sabbath day as this is the only day in scripture that Jesus claims authority and ownership over because he is the creator of it. Where as there is no scripture that links "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week. So you have posted nothing here that disagrees with what has been shared with you from the scriptures here and as posted already there is nothing from scripture that shows that Sunday is "the Lords day". Therefore at best the claim of the early Church that Sunday is "the Lords day" is simply a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by scripture.

.....................

I would appreciated it if you could return to the OP now as we are talking in circles and this OP is not about the Didache so we will agree to disagree. Now, do you have any scripture (from the bible) that proves that "the Lord day" from Revelation 1:10 means "Sunday" or the first day of the week? Let's be honest here. There is no scripture anywhere that supports the teaching and tradition of the early Church that "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week.

Take Care.

Jipsah · Aug 21, 2021

Hezekiah81 said:
F You stated gentiles were never given any law the children of Israel were given and that's false.

Then please show us the Scripture that says the Gentiles had any knowledge of the Law.

Hezekiah81 · Aug 21, 2021

Jipsah said:
Then please show us the Scripture that says the Gentiles had any knowledge of the Law.

[You don't want me to give you scripture like I've been doing you want to prove yourself right, I'm sorry but I guess we'll just have to keep this at a stalemate because your not going to change your belief and neither am I. God bless you.]

LoveGodsWord · Aug 22, 2021

Jipsah said:
Then please show us the Scripture that says the Gentiles had any knowledge of the Law.

Here ya go. Here is a few to get you started...

..................

Gentile believers receiving a knowledge of God's law

1-2. Paul tells Roman gentile believers that it is through the law we have knowledge of what sin is... Romans 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. and again...
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

3. Paul tells the Roman gentile believers...
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God

4. Paul tells the Corinthian gentile believers after the decision of Jerusalem...
1 Corinthians 7:19 For circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God.

5. Paul tells the Romans gentile believers that the law is holy just and good...
Romans 7:12, Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

6. Paul tells Romans gentiles that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us to walk after the Spirit...
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

7-9. Paul shows gentile believers that love is expressed in obedience to God's law...
Romans 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

.................

There is too many scriptures here in the new testament alone to list so I will not be posting most of the new testament scriptures as I have not got that much time. I am sure you have a bible. If you want some more scriptures you can find some more here linked. You also may want to consider previous post to you. Those who are born of the Spirit by believing and following Gods' Word are Gods' Israel according to the promise of the Spirit, not of the flesh of the seed of Abraham under the new covenant (Romans 9:6-8).

Now do you have any scripture that shows that the teaching and tradition of the early Church that "the Lord's day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week?

Your welcome

Bob S · Aug 22, 2021

Hezekiah81 said:
[Of course gentiles were never under the old covenant that's not my concern, my concern is that people post as is if there is no law

Then, as you said, gentiles were never under the laws of the old covenant why not answer my question and tell us when and who put them under those laws? I do not remember anyone writing on this forum that has stated that there is no law. Where did you get that assumption?

if you look at what Jesus was teaching he was quoting straight from the Torah there was no new testament, his ways didn't contradict the Fathers.

Of course, Jesus taught from Torah, He was born under the Law of Moses, the old covenant, and taught old covenant law. You are aware that Jesus ushered in the new covenant at His death, are you not? Anyone born after the new covenant was ratified are under the new covenant. Why then do you believe you are under the old one?

A synonym for fulfill is to complete which is exactly what Jesus did so the righteousness of the law could be fulfilled in us.

And to "complete" is to "bring to an end". Jesus brought the old covenant with its ritual laws to an end. All the laws that deal with morality are forever. Sabbath was a ritual law as were all the remainder of the laws dealing with the keeping of days.

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness not the end of the law period like mixed up religion would have you believe.] (Ezekiel 36:26-27) 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jeus was the end of the old covenant, period. You quoted scripture that is in no way relevant to the subject. You cannot take your "proof texts" out of context and think for a moment that we would buy into your shenanigan. OY! I implore you to read the whole chapter of Ez 36 and then tell us it is about the subject a hand.

[ Sounds alot like the new covenant doesn't it. What was wicked in the old testament is still wicked today and I will continue to walk in God's ways.]

What all that you have written sounds like you have been listening to the wrong belief system. You, who is eager to live under the laws of the old covenant then it must be "wicked " to build a fire on Israel's holy days. It must be wicked to speak of worldly things on holy days Is 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,

I know all about "keeping" Sabbath. I know all about what Sabbath "keepers" do on Sabbath. According to what you wrote, the ones I fellowshipped with must really be wicked people and that included me.

swordsman1 · Aug 22, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
As posted earlier, I never claimed to be a Greek scholar. I know enough about Greek and Hebrew however to ask questions and search out information and provided you with Greek scholarly criticism of Didache 14:1 from the original Greek and Jewish culture in regards to day reckoning as well as supporting references from Greek scholars showing that there is criticism that the translation of Didache 14.1 is a mistranslation because the Greek word for [day] is not in the original Greek and is a supplied word added in from the translators with no reference point to any Greek words for time (e.g. week). Your post here is repetition already addressed in details showing undisputable proof from the original Greek that Didache 14:1 which is the only place translated as "Lords day" from Lords of Lord (changed to Lords day by the translators adding in day) is used in the Didache changing the Greek meaning of the manuscript. (evidence and undisputable proof already posted from the Greek in post # 362; post # 387 linked. See also scholarly criticism of Didache 14.1 translated to "Lords day" in Ambiguous references and The Lord's day of Revelation 1:10 the current debate)

You have provided no scholarly citations or any other evidence to support your assertions about 'reference points'. You've simply presented an unproven theory that claims all translations of the Didache 14:1 by Greek scholars are wrong, with no supporting evidence. Sorry but it looks like baloney to me and unless you can provide some independent proof, I'll believe the Greek experts rather than you, a self confessed amateur.

When I question your theory you simply repeat it over and over again. (this is now the 3rd iteration of it).

LoveGodsWord said:
None of the sources outside of the bible that you have supplied here helps your argument at all but let me explain why. The problem here when discussing the mistranslation of Didache 14.1 to "the Lord's day" is that when a [day] is added in by the translators in the Hebrew and the Greek as posted to you earlier from post # 362; post # 387 linked, there needs to be a reference point to time (eg. First of the week). There is no reference point to time in Didache 14.1. As posted earlier in Jewish culture the naming of the days in the Hebrew (unlike the the Romans and the Greeks) used Gods' Word for the naming of the days and if "day" is not in the Greek text the reference point used by the translators in adding the English word day is to "week" (e.g first of the week is equivalent to first day of the week which is equivalent to Sunday our time). So as posted earlier the reference point for a Greek translator to add the word [day] is "week" first of the week means first day of the week in Jewish culture (see the example of John 20:19 see original Greek context to week here). The Didache 14.1 original Greek has no reference point to time and no reason to add the word "day" which is not in the original Greek. This is the textual criticism shown earlier that demonstrates a mistranslation of Didache 14.1. Also you may want to consider that in Revelation 1:10 in the Koine Greek is τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" the Greek word for "day" (ἡμέρᾳ) is in the original Greek and is not supplied by the translator.

My quotations of from Magnesians, Gospel of Peter, Didache, and the LXX absolutely prove my point. They are all examples where word 'day' is not in the original Greek, but all translators add it because they know that is how the Greek day naming system works. Or do you claim all these Koine Greek translators have got it wrong as well?

And again your only response is to repeat your unproven theory yet again (now for the 4th time).

LoveGodsWord said:
You do know that there are links to various papers used in the Ambiguous references section of wiki right? I am sure you can find your own references.

Here is a few...

1. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Gleason L Archer
2. The Lord's day of Revelation 1:10 the current debate by Ranko Stefanovic
3. The Sabbath in Scripture and History by Kenneth Strand

In that Wikipedia page there are no links provided for the crucial sentence, "This is one of two early extrabiblical Christian uses of "κυριακήν" where it does not clearly refer to Sunday because textual readings have given rise to questions of proper translation" ie. it was a wikipedia user making an unwarranted assertion (it wasn't you was it?).

Apart from the translations, there are only 2 other links in that section, both referring to the lack of the word 'day' in the Greek. Have you read them?

Archer, Gleason L. An Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p. 114
"There is no valid ground for questioning whether this really referred to Sunday. To this very day it is the regular word for "Sunday" in modern Greek, and it is plainly so intended in the earliest postbiblical witnesses (Didache 14:1, first quarter of the second century; Epistle of Barnabas 15:1, early second century)."

Strand, Kenneth A. (1982). The Sabbath in Scripture and History. pp. 347–8.
Strand is an SDA, but in he doesn't say that "day" shouldn't be in the translation of Didache 14.1. Quite the opposite! He wants it to be Easter day!

So this wikipedia page is zero proof for a mis-translation. On the contrary, the links provided say the translation is accurate!

The sda article by Ranko Stefanovic, does not appear in the Wikipedia page. But I read it. As you would expect from an sda, he objects to adding the word 'day' in Did 1:14, but the only reason he gives is because the word does not appear in the Greek. Doh! He is obviously unaware of the Greek day naming system. He certainly makes no mention of 'reference points'.

Not only are the Greek translators unanimous in their translation of Did 1:14 as the 'the Lord's day', but so are the scholars who have written commentaries on it:

The Didache A Missing Piece of the Puzzle in Early Christianity by Jonathan A. Draper
senior professor at the University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

Didache 14.1a commands the community, “having been gathered together,” to “break bread” and “give thanks” “on the Lord’s Day”:

κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε

The κύριος, here again, is almost certainly the Lord Jesus. To begin with, the pleonastic expression κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου uses both the adjective κυριακός and the noun κύριος to refer to a day of the week.23 This usage is distinctively christian: in addition to the reference here, the “Lord’s Day” is widely attested in the early christian writings (Rev 1:10; ign. Magn. 9.1; Gos. Pet. 9.35; 13.50; clement of alexandria, Strom. 7.12; eusebius, Hist. eccl. 4.26.2 [Melito of sardis]; 4.23.8 [Dionysius of corinth]; Origen, Cels. 8.22) and is closely associated with the celebration of Jesus’s resurrection (see esp. ign. Magn. 9.1; cf. Barn. 15.9; Justin, Apol. 1.67.3, 7; Dial. 24.1; 41.4; 138.1).2

Didache - The teaching of the twelve apostles by Clayton N. Jefford
professor of Scripture at Saint Meinrad Seminary, Indiana.

14.1 On the Lord’s day: Lit., “Lord’s day of the Lord” (κυριακὴν . . . κυρίου). This is a difficult phrase that finds an abbreviated parallel (“Lord’s day” [κυριακή]) in Rev 1:10 and IgnMag 9.1. The reference is presumably to that day of the week when Christians worshipped (i.e., Sunday) rather than to an annual event. Cf. 1 Cor 11:20.

THE LORD'S DAY by Richard J. Bauckham
Professor of New Testament Studies at the University of St Andrews, Scotland.

We conclude that in the Didache, Ignatius, and the Gospel of Peter κυριακὴ is a technical term in fairly widespread use at least in Syria and Asia Minor, designating the first day of the week as the Christian day of regular corporate worship. It therefore becomes extremely likely that κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳin Revelation 1:10 also means Sunday.

LoveGodsWord said:
As posted earlier speculation is not evidence when there is no reference point to prove time in both the dating of the Didache and also to add the Greek word day as shown earlier into Didache 14:1. It is at best a guess based on speculation which is why there is such a widely agreed time of the writing of the Didache (100 to 400 AD). That said as posted earlier it makes no difference as the Greek word to day is not supplied in the Greek in Didache 14.1 as already shown in the original Greek text and once again there is no scripture that supports this man-made teaching of the early Church that Sunday is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10. Without scripture everything else is simply a distraction from God's Word.
Indeed I did read it and posted the quote from your reference you provided which showed a wide range of speculated dates from 50 AD to 190 AD. You were also provided other references from 200 to 400 AD. "Probably" is the key word you provided here which is speculation as no one knows because there is no date or author of the didache. The simple fact is the scholars do not know. They are speculating. Which was the point I was making.

No the scholars are not speculating. Speculating means making a wild guess without evidence. There is plenty of evidence the Didache was written in the 1st century. You were provided with it in my previous post. And the consensus of modern scholars agrees that it was written in the 1st century.

Even your Ranko Stefanovic and Kenneth Strand acknowledge that.

LoveGodsWord said:
I respectfully disagree. As shown from the scriptures in the OP.

1. The Greek word meaning of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ translated as "the Lords day" means pertaining to the Lord or the Lords ownership of the day from Revelation 1:10

2. The scriptures prove the authority of Jesus to claim he is Lord of the Sabbath day because he is the creator of it *Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 ; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16; Genesis 2:1-3. So in the scriptures above Jesus claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath day (not Sunday)

3. The scriptures also show the claim of Jesus and God's ownership of the Sabbath day * Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 31:12-18; Leviticus 19:30; Ezekiel 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:15; Leviticus 23:3; Exodus 31:15; Exodus 20:10.

The scriptures provided in all three points above, collectively as a whole demonstrate that the Sabbath as shown through scripture is "the Lord's day" as described in Revelation 1:10 as "the Lords day" that Jesus claims authority over is the Sabbath day as he is the creator of it. God and Jesus also claiming ownership of the Sabbath as their Holy day of rest made at creation. The Lord' day therefore is the Sabbath day as this is the only day in scripture that Jesus claims authority and ownership over because he is the creator of it. Where as there is no scripture that links "the Lords day" to Sunday or the first day of the week. So you have posted nothing here that disagrees with what has been shared with you from the scriptures here and as posted already there is nothing from scripture that shows that Sunday is "the Lords day". Therefore at best the claim of the early Church that Sunday is "the Lords day" is simply a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by scripture.

None of the verses you have provided say 'the Lord's day" is the sabbath. The term only appears in Rev 1:10, and that doesn't say which day it is. You are attempting to perform exegetical acrobatics by making unwarranted connections with other verses about the sabbath, forcing Rev 1:10 to say something it doesn't say. That is the fallacy of eisegesis. The proper method of bible interpretation is to use the established rules of hermeneutics which allows for historical evidence to be considered. And that shows us that the term was in widespread use at the time John wrote Revelation as a reference to Sunday, the day on which Christians met. And the overwhelming majority of scholars, commentators, and Greek translators agree.

HIM · Aug 22, 2021

swordsman1 said:
You have provided no scholarly citations or any other evidence to support your assertions about 'reference points'. You've simply presented an unproven theory that claims all translations of the Didache 14:1 by Greek scholars are wrong, with no supporting evidence. Sorry but it looks like baloney to me and unless you can provide some independent proof, I'll believe the Greek experts rather than you, a self confessed amateur.

When I question your theory you simply repeat it over and over again. (this is now the 3rd iteration of it).

My quotations of from Magnesians, Gospel of Peter, Didache, and the LXX absolutely prove my point. They are all examples where word 'day' is not in the original Greek, but all translators add it because they know that is how the Greek day naming system works. Or do you claim all these Koine Greek translators have got it wrong as well?

And again your only response is to repeat your unproven theory yet again (now for the 4th time).

In that Wikipedia page there are no links provided for the crucial sentence, "This is one of two early extrabiblical Christian uses of "κυριακήν" where it does not clearly refer to Sunday because textual readings have given rise to questions of proper translation" ie. it was a wikipedia user making an unwarranted assertion (it wasn't you was it?).

Apart from the translations, there are only 2 other links in that section, both referring to the lack of the word 'day' in the Greek. Have you read them?

Archer, Gleason L. An Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p. 114
"There is no valid ground for questioning whether this really referred to Sunday. To this very day it is the regular word for "Sunday" in modern Greek, and it is plainly so intended in the earliest postbiblical witnesses (Didache 14:1, first quarter of the second century; Epistle of Barnabas 15:1, early second century)."

Strand, Kenneth A. (1982). The Sabbath in Scripture and History. pp. 347–8.
Strand is an SDA, but in he doesn't say that "day" shouldn't be in the translation of Didache 14.1. Quite the opposite! He wants it to be Easter day!

So this wikipedia page is zero proof for a mis-translation. On the contrary, the links provided say the translation is accurate!

The sda article by Ranko Stefanovic, does not appear in the Wikipedia page. But I read it. As you would expect from an sda, he objects to adding the word 'day' in Did 1:14, but the only reason he gives is because the word does not appear in the Greek. Doh! He is obviously unaware of the Greek day naming system. He certainly makes no mention of 'reference points'.

Not only are the Greek translators unanimous in their translation of Did 1:14 as the 'the Lord's day', but so are the scholars who have written commentaries on it:

The Didache A Missing Piece of the Puzzle in Early Christianity by Jonathan A. Draper
senior professor at the University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

Didache 14.1a commands the community, “having been gathered together,” to “break bread” and “give thanks” “on the Lord’s Day”:

κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε

The κύριος, here again, is almost certainly the Lord Jesus. To begin with, the pleonastic expression κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου uses both the adjective κυριακός and the noun κύριος to refer to a day of the week.23 This usage is distinctively christian: in addition to the reference here, the “Lord’s Day” is widely attested in the early christian writings (Rev 1:10; ign. Magn. 9.1; Gos. Pet. 9.35; 13.50; clement of alexandria, Strom. 7.12; eusebius, Hist. eccl. 4.26.2 [Melito of sardis]; 4.23.8 [Dionysius of corinth]; Origen, Cels. 8.22) and is closely associated with the celebration of Jesus’s resurrection (see esp. ign. Magn. 9.1; cf. Barn. 15.9; Justin, Apol. 1.67.3, 7; Dial. 24.1; 41.4; 138.1).2

Didache - The teaching of the twelve apostles by Clayton N. Jefford
professor of Scripture at Saint Meinrad Seminary, Indiana.

14.1 On the Lord’s day: Lit., “Lord’s day of the Lord” (κυριακὴν . . . κυρίου). This is a difficult phrase that finds an abbreviated parallel (“Lord’s day” [κυριακή]) in Rev 1:10 and IgnMag 9.1. The reference is presumably to that day of the week when Christians worshipped (i.e., Sunday) rather than to an annual event. Cf. 1 Cor 11:20.

THE LORD'S DAY by Richard J. Bauckham
Professor of New Testament Studies at the University of St Andrews, Scotland.

We conclude that in the Didache, Ignatius, and the Gospel of Peter κυριακὴ is a technical term in fairly widespread use at least in Syria and Asia Minor, designating the first day of the week as the Christian day of regular corporate worship. It therefore becomes extremely likely that κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳin Revelation 1:10 also means Sunday.

No the scholars are not speculating. Speculating means making a wild guess without evidence. There is plenty of evidence the Didache was written in the 1st century. You were provided with it in my previous post. And the consensus of modern scholars agrees that it was written in the 1st century.

Even your Ranko Stefanovic and Kenneth Strand acknowledge that.

None of the verses you have provided say 'the Lord's day" is the sabbath. The term only appears in Rev 1:10, and that doesn't say which day it is. You are attempting to perform exegetical acrobatics by making unwarranted connections with other verses about the sabbath, forcing Rev 1:10 to say something it doesn't say. That is the fallacy of eisegesis. The proper method of bible interpretation is to use the established rules of hermeneutics which allows for historical evidence to be considered. And that shows us that the term was in widespread use at the time John wrote Revelation as a reference to Sunday, the day on which Christians met. And the overwhelming majority of scholars, commentators, and Greek translators agree.

The Scholars and people in general have always had issues with biasedness.
If you want proof of that ask Jesus what He experienced while dealing with the "learned" and unlearned for that matter.

So you haven't actual looked at it? It is rather obvious when you do? Sad so many are mislead.

"According to the Lord's day" makes zero sense when one looks at the context, sentence structure and grammar.

Here is a link to an Interlinear The Interlinear Didache - Apocrypha - Psalm11918.org. You will find it quite helpful

XIV
1. Κατὰ (according) κυριακὴν (Lord's) δὲ (moreover) κυρίου (of Lord) συναχθέντες (gather together) κλάσατε (to break) ἄρτον (bread) καὶ (and) εὐχαριστήσατε (give thanks), προεξομολογησάμενοι (confessing) τὰ (the) παραπτώματα (offenses) ὑμῶν (of you), ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. 2. πᾶς δὲ ἔχων τὴν ἀμφιβολίαν μετὰ τοῦ ἑταίρου αὐτοῦ μὴ συνελθέτω ὑμῖν, ἕως οὗ διαλλαγῶσιν, ἵνα μὴ κοινωθῇ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν. 3. αὕτη γάρ ἐστιν ἡ ῥηθεῖσα ὑπὸ κυρίου· Ἐν παντὶ τόπὼ καὶ χρόνῳ προσφέρειν μοι θυσίαν καθαράν. ὅτι βασιλεὺς μέγας εἰμί, λέγει κύριος, καὶ τὸ ὄνομά μου θαυμαστὸν ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσι.

swordsman1 · Aug 22, 2021

HIM said:
The Scholars and people in general have always had issues with biasedness.
If you want proof of that ask Jesus what He experienced while dealing with the "learned" and unlearned for that matter.

In that case why should we believe you and the other SDA's who give us their biased teaching and interpretations?

HIM · Aug 22, 2021

swordsman1 said:
In that case why should we believe you and the other SDA's who give us their biased teaching and interpretations?

It is the case.The proof is right there for all to see.

swordsman1 · Aug 22, 2021

Using an interlinear is not a good way to translate from the Greek to English. It usually reads as gibberish. eg using your example "According Lord's moreover of Lord...". You wouldn't read your daily bible readings using an interlinear. You need an expert in the Koine Greek to translate it into English, someone who knows the foibles of the language such as the common practice of omitting the word 'day' from days of the week.

HIM · Aug 22, 2021

swordsman1 said:
Using an interlinear is not a good way to translate from the Greek to English. It usually reads as gibberish. eg using your example "According Lord's moreover of Lord...". You wouldn't read your daily bible readings using an interlinear. You need an expert in the Koine Greek to translate it into English, someone who knows the foibles of the language such as the common practice of omitting the word 'day' from days of the week.

That does not prove what is posted is wrong. The link to the interlinear is for you and others. The direct translation provided in the post is not from it. It is what is and can’t be proven wrong. The word day does not fit into the context. That is that. According to the Lord’s day moreover the Lord? C’mon….even the history in respect to the controversy in relation to these texts should tell you something. You need to look the words up yourself.

swordsman1 · Aug 22, 2021

HIM said:
That does not prove what is posted is wrong. The link to the interlinear is for you and others. The direct translation provided in the post is not from it. It is what is and can’t be proven wrong. The word day does not fit into the context. That is that. According to the Lord’s day moreover the Lord? C’mon….even the history in respect to the controversy in relation to these texts should tell you something. You need to look the words up yourself.

All Greek translators know that the word 'day' is often omitted in the Greek

So for instance in Magnesians 9:1 "we no longer celebrate the Sabbath, but live for the Lord's day", the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it is just "the Lord's" (κυριακὴν).

In Gospel of Peter 35 "Now during the night as the Lord’s Day dawned", the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it is just "the Lord's" (κυριακὴν).

In Gospel of Peter 50 "Now, early in the morning on the Lord’s day, Mary Magdalene", the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it is just "the Lord's" (κυριακὴν).

in Didache 8:1 "Rather, fast on the fourth day" the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it just says "the fourth" - the common word for Wednesday

In Jer 52:12 (LXX) "On the tenth day of the fifth month " the word 'day' is missing in the Greek, it just says "the tenth".

If 'day' wasn't added by the translators the sentences would be meaningless. eg "Now during the night as the Lord’s dawned"

SabbathBlessings · Aug 22, 2021

swordsman1 said:
In that case why should we believe you and the other SDA's who give us their biased teaching and interpretations?

God never claimed any other day holy expect the seventh day from Creation. Genesis 2:1-3 What doesn't make sense, if you're being honest with yourself, is the only day God claimed as the holy day of the Lord and also commanded us to keep holy is the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 Why do you keep disregarding these very clear scriptures? He not only spoke it He wrote it with His own Finger on stone and placed it in the Most Holy of His Temple.

God did not bless the first day. God did not command us to keep holy the first day. God did not tell us not to do work on the first day. God never sanctified the first day. God did not tell us to Remember the first day. God never said the first day is the holy day of the Lord. God did not tell us on the New Earth the first day would be the Lord's day of worship. Why are you trying to change the will of God because His will is so clear if you're willing to put aside your own to do His.

God does not change and either does the holy day of the Lord thy God because there is no scripture stating this. The theme throughout the bible is the seventh day Sabbath is God's holy day of rest that Jesus said was made for us Mark 2:27. It's erroneous to assume once you get to Revelations that one verse would be a different day than the holy day of the Lord. Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:8-11. God claimed only one day in the bible as His holy day which is why the Sabbath continues on forever Isaiah 66:23. There is no commandment to keep holy the first day, this is a man-made tradition we are warned about in scripture that would be changed Daniel 7:25 (The Sabbath is the only commandment that is both a law and a time and it was changed) Jesus told us to obey God's commandments over traditions of man Matthew 15:3-9 which is exactly what Sunday worship is unless you can find scripture where God commanded us to keep holy the first day. If you do not want to worship our Savior on the holy day of the Lord now, what makes you think you will want to on the New Earth? Because it clearly tells us the Sabbath day will continue for eternity, which you would know if you believed the Words of our Savior. Exodus 31:16, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13

swordsman1 · Aug 22, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
God never claimed any other day holy expect the seventh day from Creation. Genesis 2:1-3 What doesn't make sense, if you're being honest with yourself, is the only day God claimed as the holy day of the Lord and also commanded us to keep holy is the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13 Why do you keep disregarding these very clear scriptures? He not only spoke it He wrote it with His own Finger on stone and placed it in the Most Holy of His Temple.

God did not bless the first day. God did not command us to keep holy the first day. God did not tell us not to do work on the first day. God never sanctified the first day. God did not tell us to Remember the first day. God never said the first day is the holy day of the Lord. God did not tell us on the New Earth the first day would be the Lord's day of worship. Why are you trying to change the will of God because His will is so clear if you're willing to put aside your own to do His.

God does not change and either does the holy day of the Lord thy God because there is no scripture stating this. The theme throughout the bible is the seventh day Sabbath is God's holy day of rest that Jesus said was made for us Mark 2:27. It's erroneous to assume once you get to Revelations that one verse would be a different day than the holy day of the Lord. Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:8-11. God claimed only one day in the bible as His holy day which is why the Sabbath continues on forever Isaiah 66:23. There is no commandment to keep holy the first day, this is a man-made tradition we are warned about in scripture that would be changed Daniel 7:25 (The Sabbath is the only commandment that is both a law and a time and it was changed) Jesus told us to obey God's commandments over traditions of man Matthew 15:3-9 which is exactly what Sunday worship is unless you can find scripture where God commanded us to keep holy the first day. If you do not want to worship our Savior on the holy day of the Lord now, what makes you think you will want to on the New Earth? Because it clearly tells us the Sabbath day will continue for eternity, which you would know if you believed the Words of our Savior. Exodus 31:16, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13

I never said Sunday is a holy day, or that the sabbath has changed to Sunday. I am no sabbatarian, Saturday or Sunday.

But this topic is about the interpretation of Rev 1:10, let's not derail it please.

SabbathBlessings · Aug 22, 2021

swordsman1 said:
I never said Sunday is a holy day, or that the sabbath has changed to Sunday. I am no sabbatarian, Saturday or Sunday.

But this topic is about the interpretation of Rev 1:10, let's not derail it please.

I was not derailing the thread, I was making the point. God gives us common sense for a reason. God only claimed one day as His holy day, this one verse is not going to and does not contradict everything God commanded and Jesus demonstrated by keeping all of God's commandants which includes God's Sabbath and 4th commandment.

You admit Sunday is not a holy day of God- agreed. God would not have us worship Him on a day that is not holy or a day He did not bless. Nor is it a commandment of God.

I would not look for loopholes for trying to break a commandment of God, you cannot out smart our Creator!

Jipsah · Aug 22, 2021

Hezekiah81 said:
Those who walk in the Spirit don't walk after the flesh haven't you heard the good news!

The Good News about Sabbath keeping? "Repent and Take Saturdays Off!", zat it?

Jipsah · Aug 22, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
God would not have us worship Him on a day that is not holy or a day He did not bless.

I'd have thought our Lord having risen from the dead on Sunday gave it a kind of special status, but U guess it just wasn't that big a deal.

And I have noticed that amongst Judaizers. "Can we celebrate our Lord's birth?", "No, it wasn't that important. We'll celebrate Channukah instead." "Can we celebrate our Lord's Resurrection?" "No, some pagans somewhere used to have a holiday of some kind around that same time, and the Resurrection isn't mentioned in the Old Testament, so no worshipping Christ on Easter. You can celebrate the Passover, though. "Church on the day of the week our Lord rose?" "Nope, no can do, you'll have to join the unbelieving Jews in ignoring all this New Testament stuff and keeping the Sabbath. "

Freth · Aug 22, 2021

Biased teaching and understandings?

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: [1] Fear God, and [2] keep his commandments*: for this is the whole duty of man.

* The first four commandments show us how to worship God correctly.

There is only one God. Have no other gods.
Do not worship any thing in God's creation.
Do not take the Lord's name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, [1] Fear God, and [2] give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and [2] worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This isn't SDA bias or understandings, it's plain language from the word of God. The same statement from Ecclesiastes is carried forward in Revelation and said with a loud voice by an angel, as a final warning in the end time, to worship God as He specified.

Jipsah · Aug 22, 2021

Hezekiah81 said:
[You don't want me to give you scripture like I've been doing

You're right, I want you to give me one that I asked for, which you quite relentlessly have not. Can you not find even ONE place where the Gentiles were EVER commanded to keep sabbath? And if not, why should they?

you want to prove yourself right, I'm sorry but I guess we'll just have to keep this at a stalemate because your not going to change your belief and neither am I. God bless you.]

IE, there is no such Scripture, as we both knew going in.

Sabbath keeping was a command given to the Hebrews, no one else. That's why the Gentile converts worshipped on the Lord's Day, Sunday, the 1st day of the week. The Sabbath meant nothing to them, they worshipped our Lord Christ. The Jewish leaders didn't command the Gentile converts to keep the Sabbath, although if you have (as you and I both know that you don't) any Scriptural basis for believing otherwise I'd be keen to see it. I suspect that you also know there's no historical basis for believing it either.

The whole body of Sabbatarian dogma is hung on a theological skyhook.

Bob S · Aug 22, 2021

"The whole body of Sabbatarian dogma is hung on a theological skyhook."
Amen and Amen again!!!

THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY!

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