Futurist Only 2 Different appearances of Christ in the end.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 20, 2021

Jamdoc said:
It's because he takes even more literally about the resurrection being a 1 time only thing for both evil and good, he places it after the destruction of the world just before the white throne of judgement.
Because that is when Revelation 20 places it,

That's when I place it as well. But the difference is that I believe we are changed and will have immortal bodies immediately when Christ appears from heaven while He says that can't happen until the GWT judgment commences. But, in my view, the GWT judgment commences very shortly after Jesus returns, so I don't see why it's a big deal that I see the change of our bodies occurring a very short time before he thinks it will happen. It seems like he would have a much bigger issue with other premils who see the resurrection written about in 1 Cor 15:50-56 as happening 1000+ years before he does.

it's your Amillennial view that doesn't see the Millennium as a real period of time

Stop right there. You are misrepresenting my view. While I don't see the thousand years as being a literal thousand years, I do see it as figuratively representing a real period of time with a beginning and an end. I believe the time started with Christ's resurrection (some Amils would say it started with His ascension) and it ends when Satan is loosed which I personally equate with the time where there is a mass falling away as Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2.

that makes you conflate the GWT as being the second coming of Christ because you don't compare details in scripture treat all the appearances of Christ and God to be the same event

Again, you are misrepresenting my view. I do compare the details and I see them as speaking of the same event. Just because I draw different conclusions than you doesn't me I'm not comparing details in scripture.

Would you agree that Matthew 25:31-46 happens at the second coming of Christ? If so, then explain to me why you don't think that passage is a portrayal of the GWT judgment. I see no basis for believing it's some other judgment.

What I see
1 event where Jesus is in the clouds, the rapture occurs, and all the tribes on the earth mourn
1 event where Jesus is on the ground with all the saints with Him, and the tribes of the earth try to fight Him
and 1 final event where there is destruction by fire followed by the Great White Throne of judgement. it's not mourning or war, but judgement and damnation. There's no fighting or hiding.

What keras sees
1 event where Jesus isn't visible but is somehow in the sky, and there's fiery destruction and people hide in terror (the difference is keras doesn't believe Jesus is visible, even though Revelation 1:7 says all eyes are on Him)
1 event where Jesus is on the ground and people try to fight Him and he interprets saints as being angels rather than people
1 event where ALL the dead are raised, IE none of the saints were raised at Jesus coming, but afterward (which dismisses 1 Thessalonians 4 and Isaiah 26:19-20 where it happens when He comes back and prior to God's wrath) and judged at the GWT

I already knew how you both see it, but thanks for spelling it out, anyway.

What you see
1 event where Jesus comes back is somehow simultaneously on the ground and in the clouds,

And, once again, you have misrepresented my view. Are you doing it on purpose? I don't claim that Jesus will be "simultaneously on the ground and in the clouds" when He returns. I've said many times that I believe we will meet Him "in the air" at which point He proceeds to send fire down upon the entire earth as He takes vengeance on all of His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

resurrects everyone, then destroys the world in fire, and I guess the GWT is just allegory because the dead are already dead and don't get resurrected again.

I don't know what you're talking about. Please explain. I believe all believers from all-time will be resurrected when Christ returns and then after He destroys His enemies, as portrayed in Revelation 20:9, all unbelievers are resurrected as well, including those who will have just killed. Isn't that your understanding of Revelation 20:9 as well, that the ones killed at that time are resurrected right after that for the GWT judgment?

I think trying to combine everything as 1 event and make all the details poetry is just goofy, it's exhibiting the same perspective problem as the old testament prophets often had of looking into the future and only seeing the peaks of the mountain range so they think all the mountains are basically stacked all on top of each other, not seeing the 20 mile distance from 1 peak to the next peak in the range where it's mostly low foothills and even valleys.

What I would call goofy is to interpret events in such a way that contradict clear scripture which tells us that all believers will be resurrected on the day Christ returns and not any other time (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-56) , Christ will destroy all of His enemies when He returns (Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:18) and the day of judgment will occur on the day He returns (Matt 25:31-46). Your doctrine contradicts all of those scripture passages and more.

ask yourself why in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 the people mourn and wail and try to hide, but in Revelation 19 they try to fight rather than hide.
if you think they are the same thing, why do people behave so vastly different.

For one thing you're taking that all too literally because people are not going to literally travel somewhere to fight and Christ and His armies (it's a figurative representation of the enemies of Christ and His church opposing Christ and His church throughout the world). But, regardless of that, they first go to fight and then realize they can't win and that's when they hide.

In my eschatology, it's because they are separate events, 1 before the wrath of God and 1 after.
in the first they try to hide, in the second they try to fight because they've been enduring God's wrath, hiding has done no good, and their anger and hatred of God makes them think they can fight Him.

How does that make any sense? If you read Revelation 6:12-15 they are completely frightened about the wrath of the Lamb that is about to come down on them. But, they somehow think they can defeat Him after that? That makes no sense whatsoever.[/quote][/quote]

Spiritual Jew · Aug 20, 2021

keras said:
Because it is better to believe what the Bible prophesies do say, rather than what we would like them to say.

I do believe what the Bible prophecies say.

Revelation 20 tells us that when Jesus Returns, He will resurrect the people killed for their faith during the 3 1/2 year rule of the Anti-Christ. It dose not say they become immortal.

There is no basis for believing that any believers will be resurrected with mortal bodies in the future. Such a thing is not taught anywhere in scripture. Show me even one other verse in all of scripture which teaches such a thing. Good luck. You have no corroborating scripture to support your interpretation of Revelation 20:4. That's a major weakness in your view.

ONLY after the thousand years is over, is the Book of Life opened and immortality given to those whose names are found in the BoL.

Where does it say that they are given immortality after the book of life is opened?

What then should I call those who believe in theories and fables that are not scriptural?

You don't need to call them anything. You believe that about everyone because no one agrees with your overall end times doctrine. Okay, so you disagree with everyone. So be it. That's no basis for being rude and calling everyone who disagrees with you, which includes me, brainwashed. You treat us all like we're part of cults even though we are Christians who have repented and put our faith in Christ. You act as if interpreting end-times prophecies 100% accurately is a requirement for being a Christian. That's nonsense and is not taught in scripture.

Jesus said that we should take care to not be deceived, from the proliferation of ideas and truly unbelievable fables around today, it is plain that many are deceived; at least confused and clueless about what will really happen in the end times.

He was warning about being deceived in the sense of believing in false Christs instead of believing in Him. Anyone who does that would not be a true Christian. Being confused about what will happen in the future does not make someone a non-Christian. Stop judging people or you will be judged the same way and with the same measure that you use to judge them (Matthew 7:1-3).

DavidPT · Aug 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Isn't that your understanding of Revelation 20:9 as well, that the ones killed at that time are resurrected right after that for the GWT judgment?

This is a problem that affects both views, since it doesn't seem reasonable, kill them then resurrect them moments later. Apparently, that appears to be the case in both views, though. Even if one got around that by having those in Revelation 19:21 killed during the 2nd coming, then resurrected some thousand years later, what about those in Revelation 20:9 when they are killed, as you pointed out? There would be no thousand years for them to remain dead for awhile then be resurrected at a much later time.

On a different note, the beast and false prophet are still alive when they are judged and sentenced to the LOF. Why do humans have to be dead first in order to be judged and sentenced? Maybe there is another way to understand this that we haven't thought of yet? Or maybe someone else already has, except we are not aware of it?

While it's on my mind, I still can't figure out how some Amils think the raptured church is also among the dead standing before God at the GWTJ? How did they get there? Everyone at that judgement are all physically dead first, then bodily rise, then stand before God at that judgment.

Jamdoc · Aug 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
That's when I place it as well. But the difference is that I believe we are changed and will have immortal bodies immediately when Christ appears from heaven while He says that can't happen until the GWT judgment commences. But, in my view, the GWT judgment commences very shortly after Jesus returns, so I don't see why it's a big deal that I see the change of our bodies occurring a very short time before he thinks it will happen. It seems like he would have a much bigger issue with other premils who see the resurrection written about in 1 Cor 15:50-56 as happening 1000+ years before he does.

Stop right there. You are misrepresenting my view. While I don't see the thousand years as being a literal thousand years, I do see it as figuratively representing a real period of time with a beginning and an end. I believe the time started with Christ's resurrection (some Amils would say it started with His ascension) and it ends when Satan is loosed which I personally equate with the time where there is a mass falling away as Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2.

Again, you are misrepresenting my view. I do compare the details and I see them as speaking of the same event. Just because I draw different conclusions than you doesn't me I'm not comparing details in scripture.

Would you agree that Matthew 25:31-46 happens at the second coming of Christ? If so, then explain to me why you don't think that passage is a portrayal of the GWT judgment. I see no basis for believing it's some other judgment.

I already knew how you both see it, but thanks for spelling it out, anyway.

And, once again, you have misrepresented my view. Are you doing it on purpose? I don't claim that Jesus will be "simultaneously on the ground and in the clouds" when He returns. I've said many times that I believe we will meet Him "in the air" at which point He proceeds to send fire down upon the entire earth as He takes vengeance on all of His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

I don't know what you're talking about. Please explain. I believe all believers from all-time will be resurrected when Christ returns and then after He destroys His enemies, as portrayed in Revelation 20:9, all unbelievers are resurrected as well, including those who will have just killed. Isn't that your understanding of Revelation 20:9 as well, that the ones killed at that time are resurrected right after that for the GWT judgment?

It is my understanding, but the difference is I place the believers being resurrected at Christ's Return as the first resurrection, then the thousand years, and then the resurrection of believers (who lived in the MK and came to faith and died being in natural bodies) and unbelievers alike as the second resurrection.
You are creating a 3rd resurrection if you believe there's a separate resurrection of believers at Christ's return as an Amillennialist. Because Amillennialists place the first resurrection as happening when Christ Himself resurrected, you have chosen to interpret that we are already resurrected, even when we hadn't been born or died yet, in order to account for the non literal 1000 year period between first and second resurrection.
If you believe that everyone is resurrected at Christ's second coming, then destruction by fire, followed by unbelievers being resurrected again to face the GWT, then you have in fact, created a third resurrection, which conflicts scripture.
It's like you understand that there's the promise to believers to be resurrected at Christ's coming, yet see a problem in that the GWT has everyone be resurrected at the same time, but you can't POSSIBLY accept the first resurrection being at Christ's coming because that'd destroy your entire Amillennial belief system. Because if the first resurrection is at Christ's second coming then 1000 years after Christ's second coming has to pass.
You've just become premillennial, oh no!
So instead you create a third resurrection that's not in the bible to account for it.

What I would call goofy is to interpret events in such a way that contradict clear scripture which tells us that all believers will be resurrected on the day Christ returns and not any other time (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-56) , Christ will destroy all of His enemies when He returns (Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:18) and the day of judgment will occur on the day He returns (Matt 25:31-46). Your doctrine contradicts all of those scripture passages and more.

Mountain ranges with valleys between them, the view of the prophet simply sees the peaks and combines them together, it's a perspective problem. Jesus didn't refer to anything like the trumpets or vials. He jumped straight from the first event of His second coming to the last.

For one thing you're taking that all too literally because people are not going to literally travel somewhere to fight and Christ and His armies (it's a figurative representation of the enemies of Christ and His church opposing Christ and His church throughout the world). But, regardless of that, they first go to fight and then realize they can't win and that's when they hide.

The hiding happens first, and the travel happens during the 6th bowl.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The way was cleared for them, and they're being gathered, yes there will be travel time which is why I think the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl happen simultaneously and are connected. They both describe an army, they both involve the Euphrates, and while 1 doesn't give the time period, the other says that they fight for over a year. That's a campaign on the way to Jerusalem, coming from China through India, one of the most populated countries on the planet,

How does that make any sense? If you read Revelation 6:12-15 they are completely frightened about the wrath of the Lamb that is about to come down on them. But, they somehow think they can defeat Him after that? That makes no sense whatsoever.

They tried hiding, it doesn't work, they're backed up against a wall, and so they fight.
you have literally reversed the events instead.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 20, 2021

DavidPT said:
This is a problem that affects both views, since it doesn't seem reasonable, kill them then resurrect them moments later.

Why is that not reasonable? There's a lot of things in scripture that are not reasonable to the carnal human mind, but who cares? We have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). I would think it would be unreasonable to think that they won't be resurrected in light of what Jesus taught, which is that all of the dead, including the wicked, will be resurrected (John 5:28-29). Why would that not include those who are killed as portrayed in Rev 20:9? That those people will die shortly before the judgment takes place is irrelevant.

On a different note, the beast and false prophet are still alive when they are judged and sentenced to the LOF. Why do humans have to be dead first in order to be judged and sentenced?

The beast is not a person and neither is the false prophet. Unless you think the beast is really, really old (Rev 17:8). According to Daniel 7:23, a prophet beast is a kingdom.

Even death and Hades will be cast into the LOF (Rev 20:14), so it's clear that it's not just living beings who are cast there.

Maybe there is another way to understand this that we haven't thought of yet? Or maybe someone else already has, except we are not aware of it?

You haven't seen anyone claim that the beast and false prophet are not individual people before? Like I said, according to Daniel 7:23, prophetic beasts are kingdoms.

While it's on my mind, I still can't figure out how some Amils think the raptured church is also among the dead standing before God at the GWTJ?

Because Matthew 25:31-46 portrays that as being the case. Scripture is clear that all people, including believers, will stand before Christ to be judged (Romans 14:10-12, Acts 17:31), so why wouldn't the church be there?

How did they get there? Everyone at that judgement are all physically dead first, then bodily rise, then stand before God at that judgment.

What difference does it make how they get there? Do you think that those who are alive and don't get killed when Revelation 20:9 happens don't need to stand before God at the judgment even though scripture teaches that everyone will stand before God to be judged (Romans 14:10-12, Acts 17:31)?

Spiritual Jew · Aug 20, 2021

Jamdoc said:
It is my understanding, but the difference is I place the believers being resurrected at Christ's Return as the first resurrection, then the thousand years, and then the resurrection of believers (who lived in the MK and came to faith and died being in natural bodies) and unbelievers alike as the second resurrection.
You are creating a 3rd resurrection if you believe there's a separate resurrection of believers at Christ's return as an Amillennialist. Because Amillennialists place the first resurrection as happening when Christ Himself resurrected, you have chosen to interpret that we are already resurrected, even when we hadn't been born or died yet, in order to account for the non literal 1000 year period between first and second resurrection.

I don't believe in a 3rd mass resurrection of the dead, if that's what you're saying. It's hard to tell exactly what you're trying to say. I don't think you have a solid understanding of what Amillennialists believe, though we don't all believe everything exactly the same.

In my view the first resurrection itself is Christ's bodily resurrection. So, I actually do see the first resurrection itself as being a bodily resurrection. But, only Christ's bodily resurrection. Scripture clearly teaches that (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). I believe that the way that someone has part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) is not by being bodily resurrected, but rather by being spiritually saved. Scripture is clear that we identify with Christ's resurrection by being saved after previously being dead in our sins and spiritually baptized into the body of Christ (the church).

Other Amils would say that the act of being saved, of going from being spiritually dead in our sins to being spiritually alive and saved is the first resurrection. So, they see the first resurrection as being a spiritual resurrection.

If you believe that everyone is resurrected at Christ's second coming, then destruction by fire, followed by unbelievers being resurrected again to face the GWT, then you have in fact, created a third resurrection, which conflicts scripture.

I don't think you fully understand what I believe, so I will try to explain. I believe all of the dead will be resurrected on the day Christ returns, but I don't believe that unbelievers are resurrected at the same exact moment as believers. I believe that the resurrection of believers will happen at the moment He returns, which is followed by the destruction of the earth by fire (2 Peter 3:10-12) and then all unbelievers are resurrected right after that. I believe all of that will happen quickly. It seems that things will happen quickly on the day He returns if 1 Cor 15:50-56 is any indication.

It's like you understand that there's the promise to believers to be resurrected at Christ's coming, yet see a problem in that the GWT has everyone be resurrected at the same time, but you can't POSSIBLY accept the first resurrection being at Christ's coming because that'd destroy your entire Amillennial belief system. Because if the first resurrection is at Christ's second coming then 1000 years after Christ's second coming has to pass.
You've just become premillennial, oh no!

What in the world are you talking about here? You're not making any sense. And I think it's because you don't have an accurate understanding of what I actually believe.

The hiding happens first, and the travel happens during the 6th bowl.

The way was cleared for them, and they're being gathered, yes there will be travel time which is why I think the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl happen simultaneously and are connected. They both describe an army, they both involve the Euphrates, and while 1 doesn't give the time period, the other says that they fight for over a year. That's a campaign on the way to Jerusalem, coming from China through India, one of the most populated countries on the planet,

I agree that the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl happen simultaneously, but why would you not say they happen at the same time as the 6th seal as well? I give you credit for recognizing parallels in the book, which most premils don't, but it seems like you're being awfully selective in where you're seeing the parallels.

They tried hiding, it doesn't work, they're backed up against a wall, and so they fight.
you have literally reversed the events instead.

It's amazing to me that you can acknowledge that the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl are parallel events, but don't acknowledge that the 6th seal is also parallel to those. So, you see the 6th seal as occurring before the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. I don't. So, I'm not reversing the events according to how I view things.

Please explain to me how it makes any sense for them to be cowering and hiding in fear of what's about to come down on them and then suddenly they decide they can somehow go and defeat Christ and His armies right after that? That defies all logic because it would mean they would somehow quickly go from realizing and acknowledging that they are about to be destroyed, to the point that they'd rather have mountains fall on their heads instead of facing Christ's wrath, to deciding that they can somehow keep that from happening.

keras · Aug 20, 2021

DavidPT said:
Everyone at that judgement are all physically dead first, then bodily rise, then stand before God at that judgment.

No: there are some, many; alive at the end of the Millennium.
Those seduced by Satan, who try to attack Jesus, Revelation 20:7-10, will be killed.

All the dead people since Adam, including those freshly burned up; Rev 20:9b, their souls/spirits, will become conscious again and will be presented before God on His Great White Throne in Judgment.
Those who remained faithful will never die, but will instantly become immortal, as Paul prophesies in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.

keras · Aug 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Would you agree that Matthew 25:31-46 happens at the second coming of Christ? If so, then explain to me why you don't think that passage is a portrayal of the GWT judgment. I see no basis for believing it's some other judgment.

They are different; Jesus is the Judge at His Return. God the Father is the Judge after the Millennium, after Jesus has handed the Kingdom back to Him. 1 Cor 15:24

Spiritual Jew said:
Where does it say that they are given immortality after the book of life is opened?

Immediately following the Rev 20:11-15 Judgment, is Rev 21:1-7, the New heavens and earth, then Death will be no more.

Spiritual Jew said:
What I would call goofy is to interpret events in such a way that contradict clear scripture which tells us that all believers will be resurrected on the day Christ returns and not any other time (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-56) ,

NONE of those scriptures or anywhere else, say that all believers will be resurrected at the Return.
The 'other time' is after the Millennium, when it will be ALL brought to Judgment.

Spiritual Jew said:
He was warning about being deceived in the sense of believing in false Christs instead of believing in Him. Anyone who does that would not be a true Christian. Being confused about what will happen in the future does not make someone a non-Christian.

Being wrong about what is prophesied to happen is not a salvation issue.
But promoting and teaching wrong theories, results in a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

Jamdoc · Aug 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I don't believe in a 3rd mass resurrection of the dead, if that's what you're saying. It's hard to tell exactly what you're trying to say. I don't think you have a solid understanding of what Amillennialists believe, though we don't all believe everything exactly the same.

In my view the first resurrection itself is Christ's bodily resurrection. So, I actually do see the first resurrection itself as being a bodily resurrection. But, only Christ's bodily resurrection. Scripture clearly teaches that (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). I believe that the way that someone has part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) is not by being bodily resurrected, but rather by being spiritually saved. Scripture is clear that we identify with Christ's resurrection by being saved after previously being dead in our sins and spiritually baptized into the body of Christ (the church).

Other Amils would say that the act of being saved, of going from being spiritually dead in our sins to being spiritually alive and saved is the first resurrection. So, they see the first resurrection as being a spiritual resurrection.

I don't think you fully understand what I believe, so I will try to explain. I believe all of the dead will be resurrected on the day Christ returns, but I don't believe that unbelievers are resurrected at the same exact moment as believers. I believe that the resurrection of believers will happen at the moment He returns, which is followed by the destruction of the earth by fire (2 Peter 3:10-12) and then all unbelievers are resurrected right after that. I believe all of that will happen quickly. It seems that things will happen quickly on the day He returns if 1 Cor 15:50-56 is any indication.

What in the world are you talking about here? You're not making any sense. And I think it's because you don't have an accurate understanding of what I actually believe.

If you have believers and unbelievers resurrected in separate events then that is 2 resurrections.
Scripture does have a resurrection (the second resurrection) where believers and unbelievers are resurrected simultaneously, then stand judgement.
keras reconciles this belief by having those who are in the first resurrection as not being immortal, so they experience a second death and are resurrected before the GWT, I believe this contradicts a lot of scripture. Hebrews 9:27 specifically, and Revelation 2:10-11 also specifically.
You can't have them resurrected still mortal, die again, then resurrected again a second time.
The 2 resurrections of Revelation 20 are two END TIMES resurrection events.
It's not counting past resurrection events like Lazarus, the OT saints that resurrected when Jesus was crucified, or Jesus' resurrection.
It's only counting the resurrection that some people call the rapture, at the second coming, and the second resurrection 1000 years later just before the GWT.
Those in the first resurrection are not subject to death anymore. Death has no power over them, they're immortal.

I agree that the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl happen simultaneously, but why would you not say they happen at the same time as the 6th seal as well? I give you credit for recognizing parallels in the book, which most premils don't, but it seems like you're being awfully selective in where you're seeing the parallels.

It's amazing to me that you can acknowledge that the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl are parallel events, but don't acknowledge that the 6th seal is also parallel to those. So, you see the 6th seal as occurring before the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. I don't. So, I'm not reversing the events according to how I view things.

Please explain to me how it makes any sense for them to be cowering and hiding in fear of what's about to come down on them and then suddenly they decide they can somehow go and defeat Christ and His armies right after that? That defies all logic because it would mean they would somehow quickly go from realizing and acknowledging that they are about to be destroyed, to the point that they'd rather have mountains fall on their heads instead of facing Christ's wrath, to deciding that they can somehow keep that from happening.

Because they are characteristically different events. one involves hiding, the other involves fighting
1 involves darkening of the sun and moon, and I believe the second involves it being evening light.
that and the trumpets aren't even given out to the angels to deliver judgement until the 7th seal.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 20, 2021

keras said:
They are different; Jesus is the Judge at His Return. God the Father is the Judge after the Millennium, after Jesus has handed the Kingdom back to Him. 1 Cor 15:24

That contradicts the following verse:

John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

It doesn't say the Father will judge no one until after the Son judges people. It says the Father has entrusted ALL judgment to the Son. Period.

Immediately following the Rev 20:11-15 Judgment, is Rev 21:1-7, the New heavens and earth, then Death will be no more.

That doesn't answer my question. Nowhere in those verses does it say that believers are given immortality (immortal bodies) after the book of life is opened. Once Rev 20:9 occurs, does anyone die after that? No. So, if you really want to be so technical, then you should acknowledge that death will be no more right at that point when Rev 20:9 occurs which is shortly BEFORE the GWT judgment and BEFORE believers inherit the new heavens and new earth.

NONE of those scriptures or anywhere else, say that all believers will be resurrected at the Return. The 'other time' is after the Millennium, when it will be ALL brought to Judgment.

As I've showed you several times now, 1 Corinthians does say that all believers will be resurrected at His return. Paul first points out in verse 22 that ALL shall be made alive/resurrected, then right after that he points out that Christ was resurrected first and then at His return those who are His will be resurrected. So, that clearly means he was saying that the ALL who will be made alive/resurrected are those who belong to Christ at His return.

Being wrong about what is prophesied to happen is not a salvation issue.

Then stop saying things that make you come across as if you believe that is the case. Calling people brainwashed immediately brings to mind what happens to people who are in cults. So, it's not appropriate to refer to those who disagree with your end times beliefs like that.

But promoting and teaching wrong theories, results in a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

That's right. So, why don't you let Jesus deal with that since He is the Judge? It's not your job.

keras · Aug 20, 2021

Jamdoc said:
keras reconciles this belief by having those who are in the first resurrection as not being immortal, so they experience a second death and are resurrected before the GWT, I believe this contradicts a lot of scripture. Hebrews 9:27 specifically, and Revelation 2:10-11 also specifically.
You can't have them resurrected still mortal, die again, then resurrected again a second time.

Yes we can. It is what the Prophesies tell us will happen.
Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that the martyrs killed during the GT will be brought back to life by Jesus at His Return. NOT to immortality, as they many die again, but their second death has no power over them, Rev 20:6a
When they stand before God at the GWT Judgment, alive or dead - a thousand years after Jesus Returns; their names will be found in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs.

Jamdoc said:
Because they are characteristically different events. one involves hiding, the other involves fighting
1 involves darkening of the sun and moon, and I believe the second involves it being evening light.
that and the trumpets aren't even given out to the angels to deliver judgement until the 7th seal.

The 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are sequential events. John uses terms like: I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal.....
After that..., Then I saw....
Conflating or shuffling them is error.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 20, 2021

Jamdoc said:
If you have believers and unbelievers resurrected in separate events then that is 2 resurrections.

I wouldn't call it separate events exactly. Maybe technically, but the way I see it is one happens very soon after the other as part of the same event which is the second coming of Christ.

Scripture does have a resurrection (the second resurrection) where believers and unbelievers are resurrected simultaneously, then stand judgement.

Most premils don't believe that and they instead believe that it is only unbelievers who will be resurrected at that point. So, I have asked them what about any believers who would die during a future thousand years, wouldn't they get resurrected? I usually don't get much of a response to that question.

keras reconciles this belief by having those who are in the first resurrection as not being immortal, so they experience a second death and are resurrected before the GWT, I believe this contradicts a lot of scripture. Hebrews 9:27 specifically, and Revelation 2:10-11 also specifically.
You can't have them resurrected still mortal, die again, then resurrected again a second time.

Right. That particular belief of his is one of the most farfetched beliefs that he has. It cannot be supported by scripture. He had to resort to believing that in order to keep his doctrine afloat, but it comes at the expense of contradicting a lot of scripture.

The 2 resurrections of Revelation 20 are two END TIMES resurrection events.
It's not counting past resurrection events like Lazarus, the OT saints that resurrected when Jesus was crucified, or Jesus' resurrection.
It's only counting the resurrection that some people call the rapture, at the second coming, and the second resurrection 1000 years later just before the GWT.
Those in the first resurrection are not subject to death anymore. Death has no power over them, they're immortal.

As you already know, I disagree with you on these things.

Can you tell me why the Greek word zao is used in Revelation 20:4 in reference to those who live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ, but the Greek word anazao is used to refer to those who live again after the thousand years? The Greek word anazao is a word that would be used to describe people being resurrected, but the Greek word zao is not.

Can you tell me where scripture refers to the resurrection of those who would die during a future thousand years after Christ's return? You can't refer to 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54 and passages like that because you think those refer to people being resurrected before the thousand years even begins. So, I'm curious if you have any scripture references that would refer to a separate resurrection of those who die during the thousand years.

Because they are characteristically different events. one involves hiding, the other involves fighting

Two passages can speak of the same event (in a general sense) without having all the same details. Obviously, the timing of the hiding and the fighting wouldn't be exactly the same, but what makes more sense?

1) To first hide while being in a state of utter despair and horror while acknowledging that you're about to be destroyed and then, despite that, somehow mustering the courage to go and fight while thinking they will win.

Or

2) To go and fight and then realize you can't win and then try to hide?

The answer to the question is obvious if doctrinal bias doesn't stand in the way.

the trumpets aren't even given out to the angels to deliver judgement until the 7th seal.

How are you coming to that conclusion besides just making an assumption based on the fact that the description of the trumpets follows the description of the seals? It's amazing to me that someone can see parallels between the trumpets and bowls but then try to insist that all the trumpets must follow the 7th seal.

When you read the description of the 6th seal, it strongly gives the impression that the final wrath of Christ is very shortly about to come down. So, how can it not come down yet at the 7th seal? How can there still be all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls following the 7th seal when it's already the case that the final wrath of the Lamb is just about to come down after the 6th seal is opened? The only way that could possibly make any sense is for the events that occur with the 7 trumpets and bowls to all occur very quickly. But the description of what happens at the 5th trumpet doesn't seem to allow for that.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 20, 2021

keras said:
The 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are sequential events. John uses terms like: I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal.....
After that..., Then I saw....
Conflating or shuffling them is error.

The phrases "after that" and "then I saw" indicate the order in which John saw the visions and are not meant to indicate the order of events.

Jamdoc · Aug 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I wouldn't call it separate events exactly. Maybe technically, but the way I see it is one happens very soon after the other as part of the same event which is the second coming of Christ.

Most premils don't believe that and they instead believe that it is only unbelievers who will be resurrected at that point. So, I have asked them what about any believers who would die during a future thousand years, wouldn't they get resurrected? I usually don't get much of a response to that question.

Because they don't understand that there are 2 resurrections in John 5 as well. I know you disagree with me on them, but I believe Jesus outlined 2 resurrections there. 1 for believers, and 1 for all, with a judgement at the end of it, some to life, some to damnation.

The way I see it, the first resurrection, those who are Christ's before His second coming, they are not under the threat of condemnation. The second death has no power over them, and as such, since they're already in immortal bodies, I don't even think they stand at the great white throne of judgement. I think at best, we witness it, but we don't stand trial, we already overcame.
What believers stand before is the "judgement seat of Christ" which is treated differently. It's the bema seat, an award ceremony in other words, their works are judged but there is a difference between this bema seat and the GWT...
at the bema seat, there is the possibility that all their works burn up, but their lives are saved, that is they're saved, but did no work for the kingdom, they get eternal life and the relationship with Jesus, but nothing else. (1 Corinthians 3 outlines this doctrine of rewards), damnation is not referenced here. Condemnation is not even on the line, Romans 8:1. But for those who worked for the kingdom in life, on top of their salvation, they will be rewarded. The examples given are various crowns, and Jesus gives the example of delegated authority, so it seems that the main reward is delegated authority to rule and judge. Those that did not work for the kingdom, but are saved, are simply their subjects.
The GWT however, is characteristically different. This is ONLY life or death. I don't even know if there are rewards for those who come to faith after Jesus returns in the MK. It's either life, or second death. That's the only things that seem to be determined.

But of course I'm sure you consider these things to be the exact same thing, even though being very characteristically different.

Right. That particular belief of his is one of the most farfetched beliefs that he has. It cannot be supported by scripture. He had to resort to believing that in order to keep his doctrine afloat, but it comes at the expense of contradicting a lot of scripture.

As you already know, I disagree with you on these things.

Can you tell me why the Greek word zao is used in Revelation 20:4 in reference to those who live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ, but the Greek word anazao is used to refer to those who live again after the thousand years? The Greek word anazao is a word that would be used to describe people being resurrected, but the Greek word zao is not.

I don't know this specifically, but I do know that it refers to them have being beheaded. So they were killed. If they're alive, then it is a resurrection. In fact, the verses after declare it a first resurrection.
You and I are not going to agree on what the first resurrection means.

Can you tell me where scripture refers to the resurrection of those who would die during a future thousand years after Christ's return? You can't refer to 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54 and passages like that because you think those refer to people being resurrected before the thousand years even begins. So, I'm curious if you have any scripture references that would refer to a separate resurrection of those who die during the thousand years.

Because I believe that those in the first resurrection have already overcome. there is no threat of condemnation for them. the GWT is all about condemnation, and in both John 5:28-29, and Revelation 20:11-15 both picture the second resurrection, which has to include both righteous and unrighteous, because there is a judgement with 2 outcomes.
Because the outcome of the people of the first resurrection has already been decided, there is no point in them standing judgement at the GWT.
Premillennialists who think it's only the unrighteous resurrected at the end of the Millennium don't take into account that there are 2 possible outcomes of the GWT.
Realistically anyone who believes in a Millennial Kingdom on earth doesn't understand it if they don't understand that people will come to faith during it yet still die natural deaths because they will be in natural bodies. What then, nobody born during the MK can come to faith? Nobody who witnesses the wrath of God can come to faith? At the earthquake surrounding the 7th trumpet, the remnant in Israel glorify God in Revelation 11.
In Revelation 14:13, an angel says that those who DIE in the Lord ... just before Jesus appears in the clouds and does the harvesting of the earth (the resurrection and rapture).
To me, that means people can, after that resurrection and rapture, still die in the Lord, that is, come to faith after the event, die, and they will be resurrected at the GWT.
So yes, both resurrections will contain believers. Only one resurrection will also contain unbelievers.

Two passages can speak of the same event (in a general sense) without having all the same details. Obviously, the timing of the hiding and the fighting wouldn't be exactly the same, but what makes more sense?

1) To first hide while being in a state of utter despair and horror while acknowledging that you're about to be destroyed and then, despite that, somehow mustering the courage to go and fight while thinking they will win.

Or

2) To go and fight and then realize you can't win and then try to hide?

The answer to the question is obvious if doctrinal bias doesn't stand in the way.

The foundational flaw in your doctrine is you don't believe the trumpets and bowls are literal events, or in some amillennialist's case, they don't believe they are the wrath of God, they just call them "tribulation". At Revelation 6:17, it's declared to be the wrath of the lamb, so the events that happen on earth after this (the trumpets) are the wrath of the lamb. In Revelation 15:1, the bowls are declared to be the wrath of God. Because these events take time they conflict your doctrine, so, you choose to see them as allegory, even when specifics are given like a time period.

At the 6th seal they hide, but the people who took to hiding in bunkers are probably killed despite of their hiding, during the events of the trumpets and bowls, the unbelieving are shown to go from fear, to hatred of God, blaspheming God as a result of the plagues of the wrath of God. At the 6th trumpet and bowl (not quite the same event but connected) the army is encouraged and motivated by the beast, the false prophet, and Satan. That is why they go from fear to wrath. They've been subjugated to the wrath of God for months if not years, and the leader of the world, which they consider to be their God, motivates them to fight rather than hide.

How are you coming to that conclusion besides just making an assumption based on the fact that the description of the trumpets follows the description of the seals? It's amazing to me that someone can see parallels between the trumpets and bowls but then try to insist that all the trumpets must follow the 7th seal.

When you read the description of the 6th seal, it strongly gives the impression that the final wrath of Christ is very shortly about to come down. So, how can it not come down yet at the 7th seal? How can there still be all 7 trumpets and 7 bowls following the 7th seal when it's already the case that the final wrath of the Lamb is just about to come down after the 6th seal is opened? The only way that could possibly make any sense is for the events that occur with the 7 trumpets and bowls to all occur very quickly. But the description of what happens at the 5th trumpet doesn't seem to allow for that.

Because after the 6th seal the angels given charge to harm the earth (those that would blow the trumpets) are told not to harm the earth yet. Revelation 7:1-3. Then at Revelation 8:1 the 7th seal is broken, THEN the trumpets are given out.
Somehow people seem to place this as "parenthetical" and after Revelation 19, even though Angels have been tearing up the earth through the trumpets and bowls the whole time.

The other reasons are Revelation 10:7
Which to me indicates that the 7th trumpet is the final event in the 70th week.
also, when the scriptures are sequential, John usually prefaces with "and after these things"
in Revelation 7, the 144,000 show up after the 6th seal, this is sequential, not parenthetical.

Revelation 12 does not begin that way, it is not a continuation but a very obvious restart, another narrative.
to believe that the seals are also a parallel narrative with the trumpets and bowls requires a few very odd things
Namely you'd either have to agree with pretribulationists that the seals are the wrath of God, which has you seeing God taking wrath out on His own people in the 5th seal. Revelation 6:17 declares this is not the case, for the seals.
Or you'd have to claim that the trumpets and bowls are not the wrath of God, however, Revelation 15:1 absolutely declares that the bowls are the wrath of God.

Therefore they are not the same thing. The first 5 seals are acts of men, God simply stops restraining the worst parts of man's heart, and lets them do what has been their goal since the fall.
The trumpets however are not the acts of men, except the 6th can be interpreted as being an army led by demons, same with the bowls. The rest of the trumpets and bowls are unequivocally acts of God, disasters that are not caused by human action.

it would also require you seeing the 7th seal as simply "silence for half an hour" rather than then giving the angels the 7 trumpets.
it also requires seeing Revelation 7 as taking place after Revelation 19... while the earth has already been pounded by Natural disaster from the trumpets and bowls, because you can't distinguish between "tribulation" and the wrath of God. but conflate the 2 together and therefore see Revelation 7 taking place "after the tribulation" which you include the bowls and trumpets as part of.
Rather than correctly distinguishing between man caused tribulation, and the wrath of God.

keras · Aug 20, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
The phrases "after that" and "then I saw" indicate the order in which John saw the visions and are not meant to indicate the order of events.

Your opinion; made to suit your beliefs. Unsupported, of course.
Actually the idea the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls will not come to pass in the order Revelation gives, requires very definitive proof.

We do know how most of the OT and NT prophesies can be mixed up and are not in any final sequence.
However; the Book of Revelation is different, Jesus says it is given to us so we, His servants can know what will happen. The general sequence is a logical and quite comprehensible narrative.

Jamdoc said:
at the bema seat, there is the possibility that all their works burn up, but their lives are saved, that is they're saved, but did no work for the kingdom, they get eternal life and the relationship with Jesus, but nothing else. (1 Corinthians 3 outlines this doctrine of rewards), damnation is not referenced here. Condemnation is not even on the line, Romans 8:1. But for those who worked for the kingdom in life, on top of their salvation, they will be rewarded. The examples given are various crowns, and Jesus gives the example of delegated authority, so it seems that the main reward is delegated authority to rule and judge. Those that did not work for the kingdom, but are saved, are simply their subjects.

A good, if lengthy response, Jamdoc.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is how it will be when Jesus Returns.

Re; the Seventh Seal.
Why can't people see it for what is plainly told to us?
It isn't the commencement of the 7 Trumpets. They do not start until the Temple is desecrated, 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.
Revelation 8:1 is simply a period of silence in heaven; a half hour of heavenly time. Which is not and cannot be the same as earthly time.
20 years, +/- a few, is about the time required to fulfill all the events between Rev 6:12 to Rev 19:11

Jamdoc · Aug 21, 2021

keras said:
Your opinion; made to suit your beliefs. Unsupported, of course.
Actually the idea the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls will not come to pass in the order Revelation gives, requires very definitive proof.

We do know how most of the OT and NT prophesies can be mixed up and are not in any final sequence.
However; the Book of Revelation is different, Jesus says it is given to us so we, His servants can know what will happen. The general sequence is a logical and quite comprehensible narrative.

A good, if lengthy response, Jamdoc.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is how it will be when Jesus Returns.

Re; the Seventh Seal.
Why can't people see it for what is plainly told to us?
It isn't the commencement of the 7 Trumpets. They do not start until the Temple is desecrated, 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.
Revelation 8:1 is simply a period of silence in heaven; a half hour of heavenly time. Which is not and cannot be the same as earthly time.
20 years, +/- a few, is about the time required to fulfill all the events between Rev 6:12 to Rev 19:11

because the desecration happend prior to the 6th seal.
you have a partial preterist view of the first 5 seals, which confuses you to not see the 5th seal as the Great Tribulation.
You also have an outright goofy view of Jesus claiming His Kingdom in Revelation 11, then apparently immediately handing it back over to Satan in Revelation 13 to give power to the beast.

keras · Aug 21, 2021

Jamdoc said:
because the desecration happend prior to the 6th seal.
you have a partial preterist view of the first 5 seals, which confuses you to not see the 5th seal as the Great Tribulation.
You also have an outright goofy view of Jesus claiming His Kingdom in Revelation 11, then apparently immediately handing it back over to Satan in Revelation 13 to give power to the beast.

Yes; I do believe that the first Five Seals are now open. This is proved by how the souls of all the Christian martyrs are kept under the heavenly Altar.
I f you cared to read Revelation 20, you would see that my view of what happens when Jesus Returns is correct.
Rev 11 and 13 refer to events before the Return, only then He is seen by all.

Timtofly · Aug 21, 2021

Jamdoc said:
because the desecration happend prior to the 6th seal.
you have a partial preterist view of the first 5 seals, which confuses you to not see the 5th seal as the Great Tribulation.
You also have an outright goofy view of Jesus claiming His Kingdom in Revelation 11, then apparently immediately handing it back over to Satan in Revelation 13 to give power to the beast.

The 5th Seal are those in Paradise being glorified. The 4th Seal is the tribulation of those days.

The GT starts with the 6 Trumpets and goes through the 7 Thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet is the final celebration ceremony.

Jamdoc · Aug 21, 2021

Timtofly said:
The 5th Seal are those in Paradise being glorified. The 4th Seal is the tribulation of those days.

The GT starts with the 6 Trumpets and goes through the 7 Thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet is the final celebration ceremony.

Jesus said the Great Tribulation is over at the time the sun and moon darken.
that means anything past the 6th seal is not great tribulation.
I let Christ define my terms not a pastor or anyone on the internet.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Because they don't understand that there are 2 resurrections in John 5 as well. I know you disagree with me on them, but I believe Jesus outlined 2 resurrections there. 1 for believers, and 1 for all, with a judgement at the end of it, some to life, some to damnation.

The way I see it, the first resurrection, those who are Christ's before His second coming, they are not under the threat of condemnation. The second death has no power over them, and as such, since they're already in immortal bodies, I don't even think they stand at the great white throne of judgement. I think at best, we witness it, but we don't stand trial, we already overcame.
What believers stand before is the "judgement seat of Christ" which is treated differently. It's the bema seat, an award ceremony in other words, their works are judged but there is a difference between this bema seat and the GWT...
at the bema seat, there is the possibility that all their works burn up, but their lives are saved, that is they're saved, but did no work for the kingdom, they get eternal life and the relationship with Jesus, but nothing else. (1 Corinthians 3 outlines this doctrine of rewards), damnation is not referenced here. Condemnation is not even on the line, Romans 8:1. But for those who worked for the kingdom in life, on top of their salvation, they will be rewarded. The examples given are various crowns, and Jesus gives the example of delegated authority, so it seems that the main reward is delegated authority to rule and judge. Those that did not work for the kingdom, but are saved, are simply their subjects.
The GWT however, is characteristically different. This is ONLY life or death. I don't even know if there are rewards for those who come to faith after Jesus returns in the MK. It's either life, or second death. That's the only things that seem to be determined.

But of course I'm sure you consider these things to be the exact same thing, even though being very characteristically different.

There's something you're missing here which is the fact that all people, believers and unbelievers, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and not just believers. The following passage says so.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

What Paul was saying in this passage is that we shouldn't judge others because all people, including believers, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and not just those who we judge and think deserve to be there. When we judge others we treat them as if only they will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. But the reality is that all people will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of ourselves.

Another way to know that Paul was saying all people (saved and lost) will stand before the judgment seat of Christ is because he referenced this Old Testament passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice here that the ones who bow will include those who will say "in the Lord have I righteousness and strength", but also those who "are incensed against him". So, it clearly will include both believers and unbelievers and the unbelievers "shall be ashamed". They will bow before Him at that time, but it will be too late for them to repent and be saved and they will be cast into the lake of fire. This scenario is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. There is only one day of judgment for all people. It is a day that God has set for an appointed time.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

On the one future day of judgment believers will have confidence as they stand before Christ to give an account of themselves while unbelievers have to answer for their unrepentant wickedness and will be punished.

1 John 4:17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

I don't know this specifically, but I do know that it refers to them have being beheaded. So they were killed. If they're alive, then it is a resurrection.

You don't believe that someone can be alive when they're physically dead? John said he saw souls of dead people (he also saw the souls of the dead in Rev 6:9-11). You don't think the souls of dead believers are in heaven now?

Because I believe that those in the first resurrection have already overcome. there is no threat of condemnation for them. the GWT is all about condemnation, and in both John 5:28-29, and Revelation 20:11-15 both picture the second resurrection, which has to include both righteous and unrighteous, because there is a judgement with 2 outcomes.
Because the outcome of the people of the first resurrection has already been decided, there is no point in them standing judgement at the GWT.
Premillennialists who think it's only the unrighteous resurrected at the end of the Millennium don't take into account that there are 2 possible outcomes of the GWT.
Realistically anyone who believes in a Millennial Kingdom on earth doesn't understand it if they don't understand that people will come to faith during it yet still die natural deaths because they will be in natural bodies. What then, nobody born during the MK can come to faith? Nobody who witnesses the wrath of God can come to faith? At the earthquake surrounding the 7th trumpet, the remnant in Israel glorify God in Revelation 11.
In Revelation 14:13, an angel says that those who DIE in the Lord ... just before Jesus appears in the clouds and does the harvesting of the earth (the resurrection and rapture).
To me, that means people can, after that resurrection and rapture, still die in the Lord, that is, come to faith after the event, die, and they will be resurrected at the GWT.
So yes, both resurrections will contain believers. Only one resurrection will also contain unbelievers.

I'm glad you can recognize that believers will be resurrected after the thousand years and not just unbelievers as most premils believe. But, why do you not think that those believers who are saved during a future Millennium will have to give an account of themselves just like all other believers have to? Paul very clearly taught in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 that we ail have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Why would those who would be saved during a future Millennium not also have to give an account of themselves?

The foundational flaw in your doctrine is you don't believe the trumpets and bowls are literal events, or in some amillennialist's case, they don't believe they are the wrath of God, they just call them "tribulation". At Revelation 6:17, it's declared to be the wrath of the lamb, so the events that happen on earth after this (the trumpets) are the wrath of the lamb. In Revelation 15:1, the bowls are declared to be the wrath of God. Because these events take time they conflict your doctrine, so, you choose to see them as allegory, even when specifics are given like a time period.

The foundational flaw in your doctrine is that it doesn't take into account any of the passages that I've referenced so far in my post. Scripture clearly teaches one day when all of the dead will be resurrected. Your doctrine contradicts that. Scripture clearly teaches that there is one future day of judgment for all people. Your doctrince contradicts that. I could go on and on. So, I can't take you seriously when you try to say that my doctrine doesn't take into account certain scripture passages. That is not true.

As I already pointed out before, the wrath of the Lamb, which results in the killing of all unbelieving people (Rev 19:18), is clearly just about to happen after the sixth seal is opened. People are fearing for their lives and wanting mountains to fall on them instead of facing it. His wrath is clearly already at hand at that point. For what possible reason would His wrath drag on for years as you believe? Scripture says that when He returns He will take vengeance on all unbelievers (Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10). What possible reason would He have to just take His sweet time doing so? That doesn't make any sense. Especially considering that He will be destroying them with fire on that day (2 Peter 3:10-12). It doesn't seem to me that it would take years for Him to burn up the earth with fire. It simply makes no sense to think that all of the trumpets and bowls follow the seventh seal. You even acknowledge that the 6th trumpet and bowl are parallel, but you can't bring yourself to see that they are generally parallel to the 6th seal as well.

The other reasons are Revelation 10:7
Which to me indicates that the 7th trumpet is the final event in the 70th week.
also, when the scriptures are sequential, John usually prefaces with "and after these things"
in Revelation 7, the 144,000 show up after the 6th seal, this is sequential, not parenthetical.

The 70th week was fulfilled long ago, so there's no point in even discussing that with you. Our views are too far apart on that to have a reasonable discussion. I would like you to tell me how exactly you think the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled. Maybe you can send me a private message with your understanding of that. I don't want to go into that in detail here since our posts are long enough already as it is.

Revelation 12 does not begin that way, it is not a continuation but a very obvious restart, another narrative.
to believe that the seals are also a parallel narrative with the trumpets and bowls requires a few very odd things
Namely you'd either have to agree with pretribulationists that the seals are the wrath of God, which has you seeing God taking wrath out on His own people in the 5th seal. Revelation 6:17 declares this is not the case, for the seals.
Or you'd have to claim that the trumpets and bowls are not the wrath of God, however, Revelation 15:1 absolutely declares that the bowls are the wrath of God.

You are so all over the place that it takes a ton of effort on my part to try to follow what you're saying. I don't know if you realize that. Anyway, the fifth seal makes no mention of God taking wrath out on anyone, so I don't know why you try to say that I'd have to agree with pretribs or claim that the trumpets and bowls aren't the wrath of God. The fifth seal portrays the souls of believers who had previously been physically killed asking the Lord how long it will be until He takes vengeance on those who killed them. And it indicates that it would still be a little season yet for that to happen while He waits for "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev 6:11). So, that verse is referring to the final wrath of God/wrath of the Lamb that would come down on the day Christ returns, as referenced in the description of the 6th seal and as portrayed in passages like Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9.

it would also require you seeing the 7th seal as simply "silence for half an hour" rather than then giving the angels the 7 trumpets.

What exactly do you think the reason is for the silence for half an hour at the 7th seal? To me, it's due to the fact that the wrath of the Lamb was at hand after the opening of the 6th seal, so the silence is because Christ, the souls of the dead in Christ, and His angels have all left heaven at that point. Believers are caught up to Christ at that point after He descends from heaven and then He takes vengeance on all His enemies (Matt 24:29-51, 1 Thess 4:14-17, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21). Why else would there be silence in heaven at that point?

it also requires seeing Revelation 7 as taking place after Revelation 19... while the earth has already been pounded by Natural disaster from the trumpets and bowls, because you can't distinguish between "tribulation" and the wrath of God. but conflate the 2 together and therefore see Revelation 7 taking place "after the tribulation" which you include the bowls and trumpets as part of.
Rather than correctly distinguishing between man caused tribulation, and the wrath of God.

What is the basis for what you're saying here? I have no trouble distinguishing between man caused tribulation and the wrath of God, so don't try to tell me otherwise. There are parallel sections in the book of Revelation which even you recognize. The difference is that we don't see all the same parallels. My interpretation of the book of Revelation doesn't result in contradicting other scripture passages the way yours does. That is another big difference in our interpretations of Revelation.

Futurist Only 2 Different appearances of Christ in the end.

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

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Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

Amillennialist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Watching and Praying Always

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Watching and Praying Always

Amillennialist

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