How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

Which belief are you the most confident on?

  • Pre-trib rapture

    Votes: 5 15.2%
  • Pre-wrath rapture

    Votes: 5 15.2%
  • Mid-trib rapture

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • Post-trib rapture

    Votes: 10 30.3%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 11 33.3%

  • Total voters
    33

keras

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I can't put a number on it, nor percentage.
I can- .01%
That is 8,000 out of the 8 million citizens of the State of Israel.
A remnant, as Paul tells us in Romans 9:27.

Proved by how the holy Land will be virtually depopulated when the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Amos 1, Amos 2:1-5, Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 19:11, Luke 19:27
 
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Douggg

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I can- .01%
That is 8,000 out of the 8 million citizens of the State of Israel.
A remnant, as Paul tells us in Romans 9:27.

Proved by how the holy Land will be virtually depopulated when the Lord sends His fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Amos 1, Amos 2:1-5, Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 19:11, Luke 19:27
Wow, that is pretty small.

There are millions of Jews though in the nations, about an equal amount to the Jews presently in Israel. They could come in and back-fill into the land of Israel, and it still be a Jewish nation. Instead of the church coming into the land.

Jewish Population of the World
 
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keras

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Wow, that is pretty small.

There are millions of Jews though in the nations, about an equal amount to the Jews presently in Israel. They could come in and back-fill into the land of Israel, and it still be a Jewish nation. Instead of the church coming into the land.

Jewish Population of the World
Right, I was only referring to the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel.
But that 'remnant' applies to all those who claim to be Jews. Because claiming to be a Jew, without the circumcision of the heart, Romans 2:29, is their bad mistake.
Also I would think there are a higher proportion of Christian Jews outside of Israel.

You still make the mistake of thinking the Jews are all the Israelites.
God knows who the ten Northern tribes are. They will be the dominant peoples of the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land.
 
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eclipsenow

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You still make the mistake of thinking the Jews are all the Israelites.
God knows who the ten Northern tribes are. They will be the dominant peoples of the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land.
Not going to happen. The Land is irrelevant now.

What are we to make of the Old Testament prophecies about 'the land'?

THE CITY IN REVELATION
The NT shows us God expands his kingdom out into all the world. The irony is because the various Millennial futurists read Revelation literally, they think the dimensions of the Heavenly Jerusalem are literal - and therefore arbitrary. They're just those dimensions.... because! To them it i literal writing - therefore it's just a fact that the New Jerusalem is that big. It's just arbitrary. It's just data. But this is not good enough. It's the most metaphorical book in the bible, and includes Jesus portrayed as a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns! It's not literal, it's metaphor. In other words - the city size means something!
Basically, 12,000 stadia is the number of God's people - 12, times a thousand which is like us modern people saying 'a gazillion'. It's the complete number. It's saying the city will be big enough to house all of God's people. It's also about the same dimensions as the whole known world back then. Take a map of the world from any Roman emperor and it's the same size. God's city for God's people will cover the whole land. The whole world is God's!

WHAT ABOUT THE LAND and CITY and TEMPLE PROMISES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?
We cannot ignore the essentially spiritual nature of the OT prophets themselves. Amongst the sometimes strange imagery and apocalyptic language, it is clear that they saw that God's new super-temple will not be possible without his people being given a new child, a new sacrifice, a new saviour, a new heart, a new covenant, a new nation, and a new city that operates like a giant new temple. That is, the 'land' promises are often sketched out in terms of a larger, more idealised Holy Land than was ever owned by Israel even under king David. But in the context of all these other more apocalyptic and spiritual promises we can see that something else is going on - even for the land. How does the New Testament view the promises of the land? Are they unfulfilled? In Genesis we see the promises to Abraham that God's people will live God's way in God's land. People, God's way, God's land. That's all isn't it? No! Let's not forget that God ALSO promised Abraham that this special nation would also one day bless the whole world!
So in the New Testament - where is the temple, city of God, and all that situated - for surely those structures need a land to be in?
This is where ripping the OT land promises out of the spiritual promises actually starts to destroy the gospel. The land is all part of the one package. It's us - the Christian church.

1 Peter 2:9
"9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

In other words - you cannot rip the OT promises about 'the land' out of context and accuse God of not keeping his promises literally when he never kept the other promises 'literally'. As an Australian, I'm not a member of the nation of Israel - but I am in God's chosen people, his ROYAL priesthood, I'm his special possession, and I am in the people of God. Why? Jesus saved me. But how can I be in his people, priesthood, nation, special possession if I'm not also in his land? Where's my temple, my sacrifice, my security? Joshua gave the Israelites security in the land. Where is my security? Where is my rest from the worry and insecurity of this world?

Hebrews 4 explains:
"8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."

Joshua did not give them rest in the land. We're still on our way there! It's all quite clear - the land is in the new Heavens and new Earth where we will finally be secure. Even the OT patriarchs understood something of this.

Hebrews 11
"8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

God's promises about 'the land' are already fulfilled in that we are already seated in heaven. Indeed, to be a Christian is to have 'the land' guaranteed to us. You just cannot split the land promises out from all the other nationhood, temple, sacrifice, people, prophet, priesthood promises - it doesn't make sense of the flow of the whole bible! It destroys the gospel. There's only a problem when people try to read OT spiritual metaphors literally. They're not literal, and there are many more NT verses that show they are spiritual - verses OT 'literalists' probably miss because they're perceived to be 'boring', non-eschatological gospel verses. But there's eschatology all the way through!

EG: Where are the temple and land and people of God in Ephesians 2?
I'll make them bold.

EPHESIANS 2

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Where's the land? Where's the temple? Where are the people of God to live? In Jesus, by his spirit, we are being knit together to be the temple of God. 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?"

Just as those OT prophets saw a heavenly city where daily life was like temple life, we are currently being built into that right now - with the promise of it being fully realised in the future. Now, but not yet. Eschatological tension. I cannot take one tiny paragraph from Revelation 20 and smack it across the overall thrust of the whole Bible to throw the vast forces of eschatological fulfilment in the very identity of the gospel people of God out of shape. Otherwise, I might start to doubt if an Australian slob like myself can really be in 'the land' if I'm downunder, and if I'm really part of the people of God, the priesthood, and all that. But according to the overwhelming thrust of the NT, I can only see that I AM in the people of God. The two have become one, and an Australian slob like myself can be included. Where I am now is being blessed and Satan being bound as I declare the gospel. The millennium is happening, right now, and has been for 2000 years. And I am both in God's land now as I declare the gospel to the ends of the earth, and longing for the real land, the real rest, of eternity. Amen and amen.
 
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keras

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The Land is irrelevant now.
Not to God it isn't. Deuteronomy 11:11
Many prophesies say how the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy land and the faithful righteous peoples of God will inherit it.

In ancient times, God appeared to Abraham and made a promise to him that his descendants would possess the holy Land, all that area from the Euphrates to the Nile. But he had two sons and the descendants of Ishmael dispute possession with the descendants of Isaac and Jacob. Much blood has been shed over this problem and the current situation, as well as the prophetic scriptures make it certain that another attack is in the offing. Psalms 83:1-8, Micah 4:11-12

Both Psalms 83 and Micah 4 as well as many other prophecies say how the commencement of this war will trigger the Lord’s devastating judgement/punishment of the attackers and will affect the whole world, causing a ‘reset of civilization’. A One World Government will be formed, but every faithful Christian, be they of Israel or grafted in, Romans 9:6-8, will gather and settle in all of the holy Land, before the Return of the Messiah. Their proof of ownership is a document kept hidden until now, but soon to be revealed:

Jeremiah 32:6-14 The Word of the Lord came to me: Your relative will ask you to buy his land, as you have right of possession, as next of kin. I bought the Land for 17 shekels of silver and gave the two copies of the deed of purchase to Baruch, who sealed them in a clay jar, so that they would be preserved for a very long time.

Jeremiah 32:37-44 The Lord says: As I brought upon My people exile and disasters, so shall I bring them all the prosperity which I promise to them. In this Land, now a desolation and given over to foreigners, My people will once again buy and sell houses, fields and vineyards. I shall gather Israel and Judah from all the places where they have been banished, bring them back to their heritage and let them dwell here undisturbed. They will be My people and I will be their God. I will make an everlasting covenant with them and will put a fear of Me into their hearts, so they will not again turn away from Me. It will be a joy to Me to do them good and assuredly I will plant them here.

Jeremiah 33:6-26 The Lord says: Now I shall bring healing and care for Israel and Judah, they will see lasting peace and security. I shall cleanse them of all the sins they committed in rebellion against Me. This place will win Me renown from all the nations, when they see the prosperity that I give it. This place, devastated by My judgement will once again hear shouts of joy and praises will be sung in the House of the Lord.

The days are coming when I shall bestow on Israel and Judah the blessings I have promised to them. In those days and at that time, I will give them a righteous leader, from David’s line. As I cannot change day and night, so the promises I made to the Patriarchs, to David and to My priests will be fulfilled.

Have you seen how people say: The two families that the Lord chose – He rejected? Now, others despise My people and they are no longer a single nation. As I have established the fixed laws of the heavens, so I choose the descendants of Jacob, and David My servant, and his line will rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In My compassion I will restore their fortunes.
Ref: Revised English Bible, abridged and paraphrased.

this place, devastated by My judgement’, All of the holy Land, cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5

‘a righteous leader’ – Initially, this is not Jesus as Jer. 30:21 and Hosea 1:11…The Lord’s holy people; will choose for themselves a leader.
 
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eclipsenow

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Not to God it isn't. Deuteronomy 11:11
Just chop the New Testament out of your bible.
You'll be more consistent - but maybe not pretend to read the Christian bible any more
 
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keras

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Just chop the New Testament out of your bible.
You'll be more consistent - but maybe not pretend to read the Christian bible any more
The New Testament is our Salvation and Redemption.
The Old Testament tells us what God plans for His Land and His people.
if you think God cut off Israel and broke all promise to them.. you should be afraid that God could break His promises to you too.
God will keep His promises.
There is no one alive today who has pure Israelite ancestry. The Jews and Israelites of God now, are those people who believe in Him and keep His Commandments. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 2:29
As Christians, our spiritual father is Abraham. Isaiah 51:1-2
 
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Jamdoc

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The New Testament is our Salvation and Redemption.
The Old Testament tells us what God plans for His Land and His people.

God will keep His promises.
There is no one alive today who has pure Israelite ancestry. The Jews and Israelites of God now, are those people who believe in Him and keep His Commandments. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 2:29
As Christians, our spiritual father is Abraham. Isaiah 51:1-2

Actually Abraham questioned whether God meant something like "spiritual descendants" in His promise to him. But God said no, that they would come from him directly his own descendants, not adopted or grafted in descendants, and they'd be as uncountable as stars or sand on the shore.

Genesis 15
1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Now if you want to claim that you think you have DNA that actually comes from Abraham, and so in that way you are Abraham's direct descendent, okay, maybe you can claim to be.
But God was not counting just people who believe like Abraham to be fulfilling the promise to Abraham. Abraham had a steward, that was not born from him, but would have been his heir if he'd died childless, he probably shared the same God that Abraham worshipped, but that's not what God promised Abraham.

it will be Abraham's direct descendants that receive the land of Israel on the New Earth, those of us Gentiles even grafted into the family of God, have the whole rest of the planet.
which is fine with me.

I'd rather God honor His promise to Abraham literally, than pull a spiritual bait and switch on him.
 
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keras

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I'd rather God honor His promise to Abraham literally
In Romans 4:1–16, the Apostle Paul explains that: Abraham is the father of us all. Galatians 3:26-29
In Matthew 3:9 Jesus said God can make children of Abraham out of the very stones.

As new Covenant believers, we have been justified by grace through faith alone because of the finished work of Christ. As an old Covenant believer: Abraham, the father of Israel, was justified by God’s grace alone through faith because of his faith in the future work of Christ. Abraham stood on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who was to come just as we stand on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who has come.

True believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way that true believers are saved in the New Testament— by faith, and by faith alone. Abraham believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 The Lord declared Abraham righteous because he believed, just as the Lord declares Christians righteous because we believe.

Thus, adoption into God’s family and eternal Covenant community is achieved not through having the right ethnicity, gender, land of birth, or language. Or because of Sabbath-keeping, or from misplaced support of the State of Israel’s practices and policies.

True Israel is believing Christian Israel, and only faithful Israelites inherit God’s promises. And faithful Israelites are those circumcised in their hearts, those who have trusted in the Messiah. This is the way God has always fulfilled His purposes in saving His people. Romans 2:28–29, Galatians 3:26-29

True Israel is faithful Israel because they have faith in the only truly righteous Israelite who has ever lived—Jesus the Messiah. Only Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Father’s righteous laws for Israel. As the faithful Israelite, Jesus is the true Israel because He is the true Son of God. Matthew 2:13–14


Galatians 6:14-16 Through faith in Jesus, the Spiritual Israelite, all people can be reckoned as Israelites. All who are united by faith alone to Jesus the Christ are the true Israel of God.

For our Father has graciously made us His children having freed us from bondage in order to live as true Christian followers of Jesus, as the true Israel of God.
 
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Jamdoc

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In Romans 4:1–16, the Apostle Paul explains that: Abraham is the father of us all. Galatians 3:26-29
In Matthew 3:9 Jesus said God can make children of Abraham out of the very stones.

As new Covenant believers, we have been justified by grace through faith alone because of the finished work of Christ. As an old Covenant believer: Abraham, the father of Israel, was justified by God’s grace alone through faith because of his faith in the future work of Christ. Abraham stood on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who was to come just as we stand on the promised salvation of God in the Messiah who has come.

True believers in the Old Testament were saved in the same way that true believers are saved in the New Testament— by faith, and by faith alone. Abraham believed the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6 The Lord declared Abraham righteous because he believed, just as the Lord declares Christians righteous because we believe.
This I agree with

Thus, adoption into God’s family and eternal Covenant community is achieved not through having the right ethnicity, gender, land of birth, or language. Or because of Sabbath-keeping, or from misplaced support of the State of Israel’s practices and policies.

True Israel is believing Christian Israel, and only faithful Israelites inherit God’s promises. And faithful Israelites are those circumcised in their hearts, those who have trusted in the Messiah. This is the way God has always fulfilled His purposes in saving His people. Romans 2:28–29, Galatians 3:26-29

True Israel is faithful Israel because they have faith in the only truly righteous Israelite who has ever lived—Jesus the Messiah. Only Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Father’s righteous laws for Israel. As the faithful Israelite, Jesus is the true Israel because He is the true Son of God. Matthew 2:13–14


Galatians 6:14-16 Through faith in Jesus, the Spiritual Israelite, all people can be reckoned as Israelites. All who are united by faith alone to Jesus the Christ are the true Israel of God.

For our Father has graciously made us His children having freed us from bondage in order to live as true Christian followers of Jesus, as the true Israel of God.

But I disagree with the spirit of this because I believe that God will honor His promise to Abraham literally not just spiritually, that God will have a remnant of Abraham's flesh and blood descendants saved that inherit Israel, while the gentiles inherit the rest of the new Earth.
 
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eclipsenow

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The New Testament is our Salvation and Redemption. The Old Testament tells us what God plans for His Land and His people.

The weird thing is you agree with me on who God's people are!
(Both Jews and Gentiles in Christ.)
You just don't agree with how he fulfils his promises.
All God's promises about the 'land' are more than fulfilled in his now-and-not-yet kingdom.
God's temple, kingdom, land, sacrifice, king, high-priest and prophet are all ultimately fulfilled in Jesus. So of course God keeps his promise - but who cares about the original theocratic land in the Middle-East when God has expanded his kingdom to the whole earth? Acts 1:8 ties in with the land. As God's kingdom explodes out of the middle-east, so do his promises for the land.
 
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eclipsenow

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But I disagree with the spirit of this because I believe that God will honor His promise to Abraham literally not just spiritually, that God will have a remnant of Abraham's flesh and blood descendants saved that inherit Israel, while the gentiles inherit the rest of the new Earth.

What do you make of Jesus when he says if the Jews would not recognise him, then the stones themselves would praise him? That's us non-Jews.

Also, where's your gospel? No one comes to the Father except through the son. No-one. Even OT Jews come to the Father through their trust in his provision of promises - and even though they didn't understand the mechanism - are saved by Jesus death on the cross.

Also, scientifically it's pretty hard to determine who is Jewish today. Palestinians have more Jewish DNA than Jews because of the diaspora - they're just not Jewish culturally. Who is Jewish is a very, very complex question - and I'm not sure the OT promises CAN be fulfilled 'literally' - as you say.
 
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Jamdoc

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What do you make of Jesus when he says if the Jews would not recognise him, then the stones themselves would praise him? That's us non-Jews.

Also, where's your gospel? No one comes to the Father except through the son. No-one. Even OT Jews come to the Father through their trust in his provision of promises - and even though they didn't understand the mechanism - are saved by Jesus death on the cross.

Also, scientifically it's pretty hard to determine who is Jewish today. Palestinians have more Jewish DNA than Jews because of the diaspora - they're just not Jewish culturally. Who is Jewish is a very, very complex question - and I'm not sure the OT promises CAN be fulfilled 'literally' - as you say.

Jesus will not return to the earth until the Jews say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!"

I'm not saying the Jews are saved without Jesus, I'm saying that Israel will be saved through Jesus.
Zechariah 13 says that 2/3 of Israel will die, and 1/3 will be refined through the fire. That's the 70th week.
Revelation 7 shows that after Jesus returns 144,000 descendants of Abraham from the 12 tribes of Israel, are sealed to God.
Just like God told Elijah that there were 7000 men who'd not submitted to Baal that Elijah didn't know about, God tells us in Revelation that He will have at least 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel (except Dan and Ephraim, those are replaced by Levi and Joseph), even though most of the northern tribes have been "lost" God has preserved them and a remnant of them will come to faith in Jesus and accept Him as their messiah.
They may themselves be surprised to learn of their heritage, but they will be preserved, because God has spoken it and He will do all that He has declared.
 
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jgr

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What do you make of Jesus when he says if the Jews would not recognise him, then the stones themselves would praise him? That's us non-Jews.

Also, where's your gospel? No one comes to the Father except through the son. No-one. Even OT Jews come to the Father through their trust in his provision of promises - and even though they didn't understand the mechanism - are saved by Jesus death on the cross.

Also, scientifically it's pretty hard to determine who is Jewish today. Palestinians have more Jewish DNA than Jews because of the diaspora - they're just not Jewish culturally. Who is Jewish is a very, very complex question - and I'm not sure the OT promises CAN be fulfilled 'literally' - as you say.

Not complex at all.

After more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's physical DNA is ubiquitous in all of us.

We are all genetic Jews, confirmed both mathematically and empirically.
The Jewish community agrees and applauds.

But God's sole and exclusive interest is in different DNA.

Romans 2:28-29

Spiritual DNA.

Two genes.

Faith and obedience, in and to Him and His Son.

And nothing else.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage
 
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eclipsenow

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Jesus will not return to the earth until the Jews say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!"
Um, they've already said it?

I'm not saying the Jews are saved without Jesus, I'm saying that Israel will be saved through Jesus. Zechariah 13 says that 2/3 of Israel will die, and 1/3 will be refined through the fire. That's the 70th week.
Zechariah is mostly about the issues of his day.
The last chapters you refer to are visionary descriptions of the coming kingdom, telling us theological truths, not timetables. In some ways the church now is the kingdom of God - in other ways we're in eschatological tension, the 'now but not yet' nature of the life we live waiting for the Lord.

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Jamdoc

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Um, they've already said it?


Zechariah is mostly about the issues of his day.
The last chapters you refer to are visionary descriptions of the coming kingdom, telling us theological truths, not timetables. In some ways the church now is the kingdom of God - in other ways we're in eschatological tension, the 'now but not yet' nature of the life we live waiting for the Lord.

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Nope, Preterism falls absolutely flat on its face, this is not the New Earth.

and Zechariah has prophecies of both the first coming (such as the 30 pieces of silver) and second coming of Jesus Christ.

The mount of olives is still a mountain to this day.
 
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Jamdoc

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I just want to get a reality check here.

Preterist viewpoint: Jesus has already returned, death and sin and oceans should no longer exist.
Futurist viewpoint: The world will get worse and worse and worse until Jesus returns, and then sin and death will be no more.

which lines up with our current world where Christianity is seeing more and more apostasy and sin is becoming more and more accepted and glorified by our societies?
 
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keras

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But I disagree with the spirit of this because I believe that God will honor His promise to Abraham literally not just spiritually, that God will have a remnant of Abraham's flesh and blood descendants saved that inherit Israel, while the gentiles inherit the rest of the new Earth.
Amos 9:9 says God does know who and where His ethnic Israelites are.
The truth is that Israelites are both by descent and by faith.
Note; how those who rebel against God will die in the wilderness. Ezekiel 20:34-38

Also note; how it is people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who are the people of God. Revelation 5:9-10

It will be all of the Christian peoples who will occupy and live in all of the holy Land, before Jesus Returns.
After the Return, His people will have all of the world, as there will be no godless and wicked people in the Millennium Kingdom.
 
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Jamdoc

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Amos 9:9 says God does know who and where His ethnic Israelites are.
The truth is that Israelites are both by descent and by faith.
Note; how those who rebel against God will die in the wilderness. Ezekiel 20:34-38

Also note; how it is people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who are the people of God. Revelation 5:9-10

It will be all of the Christian peoples who will occupy and live in all of the holy Land, before Jesus Returns.
After the Return, His people will have all of the world, as there will be no godless and wicked people in the Millennium Kingdom.

That's just silly to cram every person into 1 small country.
there's space for a lot more people in the world, some will live in Israel, some not.
 
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