Supernatural Legendary Creatures

The Liturgist said:

As I have said before, Lucifer is not the proper name of Satan but is rather how St. Jerome translated Helel ben Shachar , which means “shining one, son of the morning",

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son of the morning (i.e. Lucifer) was the name of Satan before he fell.

Notice these following details

============================

"There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.

"Isaiah 14:12–18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer,” a name that means “morning star,” “son of the dawn,” “Day Star / Daystar,” or “shining star.” The description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer (In Hebrew, helel) being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire—to be God—and it is the very temptation he used in the garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5)."

from; Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan? | GotQuestions.org

===================

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

A one-volume commentary prepared by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown. It was published in 1871.
Isaiah 14:Verse 12

Isaiah 14:12-15. The Jews address the him again as a fallen once-bright star.

“The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given.”



Scofield Bible (first appeared in 1909 and was revised by the author in 1917.)
Verse 12
son of the morning
Isaiah 14:12-14 evidently refer to Satan, who, as prince of this world-system (see "World," John 7:7 (See Scofield "Revelation 13:8") is the real unseen ruler of the successive world- powers. Tyre, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. (see Ezekiel 28:12-14 Lucifer, "day-star," can be none other that Satan. This tremendous passage marks the beginning of sin in the universe. When Lucifer said, "I will," sin began. See Scofield "Revelation 20:10".

See other instances of addressing Satan through another, Genesis 3:15; Matthew 16:22; Matthew 16:23.


Wikipedia – Lucifer: Lucifer - Wikipedia

Sigve K Tonstad argues that the New Testament War in Heaven theme of Revelation 12 (Revelation 12:7–9), in which the dragon "who is called the devil and Satan … was thrown down to the earth", was derived from the passage about the Babylonian king in Isaiah 14.[70]

Origen (184/185 – 253/254) interpreted such Old Testament passages as being about manifestations of the devil; but writing in Greek, not Latin, he did not identify the devil with the name "Lucifer".

Origen was not the first to interpret the Isaiah 14 passage as referring to the devil: he was preceded by at least Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), who in his Adversus Marcionem (book 5, chapters 11 and 27) twice presents as spoken by the devil the words of Isaiah 14:14: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High".

=====================
the pattern is the same in Isaiah 14 and in Ezek 28

Is 14
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’


Ezek 28
2...you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods
In the heart of the seas’;
..
3 Behold, you are wiser than Daniel; There is no secret that is a match for you.
..
12...“You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
...
On the day that you were created They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created
...
Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

======================

The Liturgist said:

and more specifically was used to refer to the planet Venus...
So, the bottom line is that Lucifer is a Latin word synonymous with the Greek Heosphoros, a way of referring to the second planet of the Solar System

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ok so that is "another" way to look at these texts. I think Lucifer as the name of Satan prior to his fall makes more sense given the details in scripture above.

Torah Keeper said:

Angels and demons are all over the Bible. If you don't believe in those then you don't believe the Bible at all. Demons are evil angels. Ghosts are demons. Same as familiar spirits.

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That is true.

The Liturgist said:

We have no proof of the existence of Nephilim at present, and their nature in the Book of Genesis is not well understood. They could very well be parabolic or mythological, if we interpret Genesis using Alexandrian exegesis (which we should, at least in part; I favor a hybrid of Alexandrian typological-prophetic interpretation and Antiochene literal interpretation, so, for example, Genesis 1 I read as a narrative of the passion and resurrection of Jesus Christ as well as an account of the creation of the world).

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That last sentence sums up the degree to which the text can be turned into almost anything with a little bit of effort. I do not choose that model/method.

Nephilim is a reference to a very tall person both before the flood and after. Since Noah and his family were the only humans to cross over from before the flood and all humans after the flood are descendants of Noah's family - then having giants before and after the flood -- also makes Noah "Nephilim" a very tall person. Possibly around twice as tall as people are today. But still 100% human... the same species.

TheWhat? said:

The thing that always gets me about that story is how after being summoned from the dead, Samuel still rebukes the living daylights out of Saul.

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The Bible says it is a "familiar spirit" in 1 Sam 28 and only the witch has the power to call him up, only the witch sees him in 1 Sam 28 etc. Satan and his fellow demons were at work in 1 Sam 28. King Saul sought out "a witch" -- who "has a familiar spirit". His request to her was "conjure up for me whomever I shall name".

Those who believe that Satan, witches and familiar spirits rule over dead saints and can call them up at will - are falling for "a line" that Satan tells.

Liturgist, I reject your theistic evolution and "it's all a metaphor" Bible exegesis. I am a young Earth creationist. I interpret the Bible from a more literal view.

"Death before sin" has serious problems if you really examine it.

bèlla said:

Yes he does. That's why people go to fortune tellers. There's always a bit of truth in what's imparted if they're really seers. But the outcome is demonic. You're aligning with his will.

~bella

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true.

BobRyan said:

son of the morning (i.e. Lucifer) was the name of Satan before he fell.

Notice these following details

============================

"There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.

"Isaiah 14:12–18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer,” a name that means “morning star,” “son of the dawn,” “Day Star / Daystar,” or “shining star.” The description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer (In Hebrew, helel) being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire—to be God—and it is the very temptation he used in the garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5)."

from; Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan? | GotQuestions.org

===================

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

A one-volume commentary prepared by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown. It was published in 1871.
Isaiah 14:Verse 12

Isaiah 14:12-15. The Jews address the him again as a fallen once-bright star.

“The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given.”



Scofield Bible (first appeared in 1909 and was revised by the author in 1917.)
Verse 12
son of the morning
Isaiah 14:12-14 evidently refer to Satan, who, as prince of this world-system (see "World," John 7:7 (See Scofield "Revelation 13:8") is the real unseen ruler of the successive world- powers. Tyre, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. (see Ezekiel 28:12-14 Lucifer, "day-star," can be none other that Satan. This tremendous passage marks the beginning of sin in the universe. When Lucifer said, "I will," sin began. See Scofield "Revelation 20:10".

See other instances of addressing Satan through another, Genesis 3:15; Matthew 16:22; Matthew 16:23.


Wikipedia – Lucifer: Lucifer - Wikipedia

Sigve K Tonstad argues that the New Testament War in Heaven theme of Revelation 12 (Revelation 12:7–9), in which the dragon "who is called the devil and Satan … was thrown down to the earth", was derived from the passage about the Babylonian king in Isaiah 14.[70]

Origen (184/185 – 253/254) interpreted such Old Testament passages as being about manifestations of the devil; but writing in Greek, not Latin, he did not identify the devil with the name "Lucifer".

Origen was not the first to interpret the Isaiah 14 passage as referring to the devil: he was preceded by at least Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), who in his Adversus Marcionem (book 5, chapters 11 and 27) twice presents as spoken by the devil the words of Isaiah 14:14: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High".

=====================
the pattern is the same in Isaiah 14 and in Ezek 28

Is 14
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’


Ezek 28
2...you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods
In the heart of the seas’;
..
3 Behold, you are wiser than Daniel; There is no secret that is a match for you.
..
12...“You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
...
On the day that you were created They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created
...
Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

======================



ok so that is "another" way to look at these texts. I think Lucifer as the name of Satan prior to his fall makes more sense given the details in scripture above.

Click to expand...

How do you figure a Latin translation of a Hebrew name could possibly be valid? If you think that Son of the Morning is a legitimate name for Satan, and not a poetic description, and some people do, call him that. Calling him by a Latin word which does not even mean Son of the Morning, but rather literally translates to “Bearer of Light,” is anachronistic, erroneous, and offensive to the martyrs who died for Christ who were named Lucifer.

BobRyan said:

son of the morning (i.e. Lucifer) was the name of Satan before he fell.

Notice these following details

============================

"There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.

"Isaiah 14:12–18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer,” a name that means “morning star,” “son of the dawn,” “Day Star / Daystar,” or “shining star.” The description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer (In Hebrew, helel) being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire—to be God—and it is the very temptation he used in the garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5)."

from; Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan? | GotQuestions.org

===================

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

A one-volume commentary prepared by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown. It was published in 1871.
Isaiah 14:Verse 12

Isaiah 14:12-15. The Jews address the him again as a fallen once-bright star.

“The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given.”



Scofield Bible (first appeared in 1909 and was revised by the author in 1917.)
Verse 12
son of the morning
Isaiah 14:12-14 evidently refer to Satan, who, as prince of this world-system (see "World," John 7:7 (See Scofield "Revelation 13:8") is the real unseen ruler of the successive world- powers. Tyre, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. (see Ezekiel 28:12-14 Lucifer, "day-star," can be none other that Satan. This tremendous passage marks the beginning of sin in the universe. When Lucifer said, "I will," sin began. See Scofield "Revelation 20:10".

See other instances of addressing Satan through another, Genesis 3:15; Matthew 16:22; Matthew 16:23.


Wikipedia – Lucifer: Lucifer - Wikipedia

Sigve K Tonstad argues that the New Testament War in Heaven theme of Revelation 12 (Revelation 12:7–9), in which the dragon "who is called the devil and Satan … was thrown down to the earth", was derived from the passage about the Babylonian king in Isaiah 14.[70]

Origen (184/185 – 253/254) interpreted such Old Testament passages as being about manifestations of the devil; but writing in Greek, not Latin, he did not identify the devil with the name "Lucifer".

Origen was not the first to interpret the Isaiah 14 passage as referring to the devil: he was preceded by at least Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), who in his Adversus Marcionem (book 5, chapters 11 and 27) twice presents as spoken by the devil the words of Isaiah 14:14: "I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High".

=====================
the pattern is the same in Isaiah 14 and in Ezek 28

Is 14
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’


Ezek 28
2...you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods
In the heart of the seas’;
..
3 Behold, you are wiser than Daniel; There is no secret that is a match for you.
..
12...“You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
...
On the day that you were created They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created
...
Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

======================



ok so that is "another" way to look at these texts. I think Lucifer as the name of Satan prior to his fall makes more sense given the details in scripture above.

Click to expand...

So what do you make of this?

[Rev 22:16 NKJV] 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

If you are astute in your study of scripture, you should know that the ones who crucified Christ accused him using demonic terms. Also, since when does correct interpretation or judgment rely on pattern recognition?

In what way is pattern recognition equivalent to either discernment, or just judgment?

[Jas 4:11-12 NKJV] 11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

[Heb 4:12 NKJV] 12 For the word of God [is] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[Isa 55:10-11 NKJV] 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper [in the thing] for which I sent it.

TheWhat? said:

So what do you make of this?

[Rev 22:16 NKJV] 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

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The titles for the sinless Lucifer and Christ are similar - just as "Wonderful, Counselor " are titles given to Christ but there are others also called "counselor"

Lucifer is the name of Satan in his sinless form - who then fell and became Satan. Lucifer was not a demonic name given to him, it was a name of high honor -- and later because of his fall - it was changed to Satan.

BobRyan said:

The titles for the sinless Lucifer and Christ are similar - just as "Wonderful, Counselor " are titles given to Christ but there are others also called "counselor"

Lucifer is the name of Satan in his sinless form - who then fell and became Satan. Lucifer was not a demonic name given to him, it was a name of high honor -- and later because of his fall - it was changed to Satan.

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But again, why are you using the Latin translation? It’s anachronistic.

BobRyan said:

The titles for the sinless Lucifer and Christ are similar - just as "Wonderful, Counselor " are titles given to Christ but there are others also called "counselor"

Lucifer is the name of Satan in his sinless form - who then fell and became Satan. Lucifer was not a demonic name given to him, it was a name of high honor -- and later because of his fall - it was changed to Satan.

Click to expand...

As far as I understand, "lucifer" and "morning star" are the same title, and yet we have Jesus claiming the title in Revelation.

You said yourself:

BobRyan said:

There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,”...

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I think it's of note that "morning star" originates with Isaiah who states (as is commonly interpreted to refer to Christ):

[Isa 53:4, 11 NKJV] 4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. ... 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, [and] be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

That's not to say there is no satan, who is in actuality opposed to Jesus, just that misinterpretation of the inspired text is common, given that this is also according to Isaiah:

[Isa 55:8, 11 NKJV] 8 "For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD. ... 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper [in the thing] for which I sent it.

And also:

[1Pe 1:12 NKJV] 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.

[2Pe 1:18-20 NKJV] 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation...

[Heb 4:12 NKJV] 12 For the word of God [is] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

People just don't know how to read the prophetic word. It's by design -- "sealed up" as per Daniel.

BobRyan said:

"Nephilim" a very tall person. Possibly around twice as tall as people are today.

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That's still unacceptably tall.

Jipsah said:

That's still unacceptably tall.

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Indeed. Structurally I don’t see how the human body could support that height. People taller than the 7’ range we see in basketball players start having health problems. I recall a sad case of a man, I think from Indonesia, who grew to over 8’ and died at a prematurely young age because he had heart failure, not because his heart was defective, per se, but rather because even a healthy human heart cannot maintain a supply of oxygenated blood in such a large body.

BobRyan said: ↑
"Nephilim" a very tall person. Possibly around twice as tall as people are today.

Jipsah said:

That's still unacceptably tall.

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unacceptable? -- lets shorten them

The Liturgist said:

But again, why are you using the Latin translation? It’s anachronistic.

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1. I did not author the Latin Vulgate.
2. I did not translate the KJV
3. I am aware the there is a Latin and Spanish language form of "light" and of "flash" yet the term "flashlight" in its English form is still used in spanish countries.
4. This thread is not about the etymology of the name "Lucifer" nor a thread about how angels in heaven would have pronounced his name before his fall. It "appears" to be about a list of supernatural beings one of which is Satan in his pre-fall form and also in his post-fall form. The question then is not "how would he have pronounced his own name" in Is 14 and in Ezek 28 - but rather what do those two chapters say about him - the person..

So then going back to the OP

mindlight said:

The bible talks about angels and demons, the leviathan, and some other creatures that might not be commonplace.

How many other creatures from the following list, might be real from a Christian /Objective point of view?

Lists of legendary creatures - Wikipedia

Do you believe ghosts exist, for instance, they are not in the bible?

I am looking for some broad methods, theological principles to help sift fact from fiction.

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1. Satan is real - a fallen angel.
2. the prefallen form of Satan - as Lucifer (or call him what you will) is real
3. Demons are fallen angels - and they are real.

BobRyan said:

1. I did not author the Latin Vulgate.
2. I did not translate the KJV
3. I am aware the there is a Latin and Spanish language form of "light" and of "flash" yet the term "flashlight" in its English form is still used in spanish countries.
4. This thread is not about the etymology the name "Lucifer" nor a thread about how angels in heaven would have pronounced his name before his fall. It "appears" to be about a list of supernatural beings one of which is Satan in his pre-fall form and also in his post-fall form. The question then is not "how would he have pronounced his own name" in Is 14 and in Ezek 28 - but rather what do those two chapters say about him - the person..

So then going back to the OP



1. Satan is real - a fallen angel.
2. the prefallen form of Satan - as Lucifer (or call him what you will) is real
3. Demons are fallen angels - and they are real.

Click to expand...

Well, we agree that Satan is real, that he fell, but remember, Isaiah called him The Son of the Morning, not The Light Bearer, and modern Bible translations have corrected this anachronism in the KJV, and we also agree demons are real.

As for the other mythological creatures mentioned, I doubt they exist and if they were observed, I would suspect demonic manifestations.

BobRyan said:

BobRyan said: ↑
"Nephilim" a very tall person. Possibly around twice as tall as people are today.



unacceptable? -- lets shorten them

Click to expand...

Realistically humans can be over 7’ without major health problems. When we consider that men over 5’ were considered quite tall until relatively recently, a 7’ human would be regarded as a giant, and indeed there have been instances of such, involving early European contact with some African tribes.

The Liturgist said:

Indeed. Structurally I don’t see how the human body could support that height. People taller than the 7’ range we see in basketball players start having health problems.

Click to expand...

Some tall people have small bones or are unbalanced in terms of lung capacity, muscle mass, bone density etc (awkward and not well proportioned).

But the idea that Genesis is true - means that if these giants are as God created them - (twice as tall as humans) and the Bible is true about Goliath and king of Og (with a bed length of 13.5 feet by 6 feet ) where both are over nine feet tall (more like 10 or 11 for Og) - it shoots that "not possible to be 8 feet tall and healthy" idea. These guys were fighting wars at that size.

In those primitive days the dimensions of the bed was closely associated with the size of the man. So this is not a case of a 5'8" man swimming in a bed that was 13.5 feet long.

In any case I don't view the Nephilim as supernatural at all - rather the race of mankind has simply degenerated over 1000's of years of time since before the flood.

Nephilim are described as "min olam" in Hebrew. This is literally "from eternity". Possible "thought for thought" translations can be "from before time", or "from the universe". The KJV (mis)translates it "of old".

And they were created from the "sons of God" coming into the "daughters of Adam". So saying "All men were Nephilim", does not make any sense.

It would be more logical for Moses to write "Men were giants in those days." And without the sons of God and daughters of Adam explanation for their existence.

Then you have the verse about Noah's perfect genetics. Nephilim were not human.