Taliban and Afghanistan

Andrei D said:

They're terrible villains and that is without doubt. I mean, from what I see in the papers, Talibans are almost as bad as Trump supporters. Or Hungarians. Or the Orthodox. In fact, Orthodox priests are referred to, in the corporate media, as "taliban" in my country. Right?

Click to expand...

That's the thing. I wouldn't want to live under the Taliban but I wouldn't want to live in my dad's little village neither. I'll be honest I haven't seen anything that suggests the people are off any differently, regardless of whose in charge of that region. Whether Taliban or democracy it's still remains in an agrarian stone age. Just think about this, the only outcry I've ever seen is a teenage girl paraded out as a propaganda piece by international media calling for equal schooling for girls in stone age Afghanistan. One girl in 20 years, that's it!
I just saw a video in Greece where a Greek politician wants to ban the Burqa because of an influx of Muslim women that VOLUNTARILY wear them (as they still do in the United States). Greece is a country where Islam is theoretically banned under the treaty of Lausanne!

buzuxi02 said:

I find no evidence Afghan women are against the Taliban as they still wear burqas here in the United States.

Click to expand...

if it were that simple, Afghan mothers wouldn't have been throwing their kids over razor wire to be with the Western troops rather than the Taliban.

plus, having been there I can say the Afghanis hate the Taliban.

ArmyMatt said:

if it were that simple, Afghan mothers wouldn't have been throwing their kids over razor wire to be with the Western troops rather than the Taliban.

plus, having been there I can say the Afghanis hate the Taliban.

Click to expand...

Fr, do you have any insight into how their army apparatus collapsed? I suspect it is some sort of mass psychological issue; not a matter of sanity but some kind of panic.

I remember when I was a kid following the fall of the Shah of Iran in the news back in 1978-79. The Iranian army was top notch & held a large parade to deter Khomeini & then just disintegrated without hardly firing a shot.

rusmeister said:

The problem I see is in desiring to rule the world. Can we?

Click to expand...

Sure but we don't want to do what would have to be done. Basically be like Megatron (transformer reference) in a word ruthless

Lukaris said:

Fr, do you have any insight into how their army apparatus collapsed? I suspect it is some sort of mass psychological issue; not a matter of sanity but some kind of panic.

I remember when I was a kid following the fall of the Shah of Iran in the news back in 1978-79. The Iranian army was top notch & held a large parade to deter Khomeini & then just disintegrated without hardly firing a shot.

Click to expand...

there's a lot as far as I can see. for one, we kinda just left without prepping them for our departure. for two, for many the loyalty lies in the tribe and not the nation. that kinda stuff.

ArmyMatt said:

if it were that simple, Afghan mothers wouldn't have been throwing their kids over razor wire to be with the Western troops rather than the Taliban.

plus, having been there I can say the Afghanis hate the Taliban.

Click to expand...

I think the rub is in that it is not simple. You have both true believers in Islam that likely welcome the Taliban, and people who have enjoyed living under American secular rule. You would have mostly come into contact with the latter there, and anyone that has experienced the freer life offered by the West would realize that some things about Islam suck.
At the same time, Buzuxi must be right that a good number of people don’t actually welcome Americans, and at least some of the Western-exposed ones would despise the moral decay we tolerate and even “celebrate”.
So it’s not a simple picture, either way, and your point about desperate people is right. Certainly those that embraced Western secularism or Christianity are in for a hard, vicious, even murderous time.

rusmeister said:

I think the rub is in that it is not simple. You have both true believers in Islam that likely welcome the Taliban, and people who have enjoyed living under American secular rule. You would have mostly come into contact with the latter there, and anyone that has experienced the freer life offered by the West would realize that some things about Islam suck.
At the same time, Buzuxi must be right that a good number of people don’t actually welcome Americans, and at least some of the Western-exposed ones would despise the moral decay we tolerate and even “celebrate”.
So it’s not a simple picture, either way, and your point about desperate people is right. Certainly those that embraced Western secularism or Christianity are in for a hard, vicious, even murderous time.

Click to expand...

Something interesting is that demographically Afghanistan is a very young country. A large majority of the population is under 30 y.o.



That means that a large majority was under 10 y.o. or yet-to-be-born back when America invited herself in. They have no experience of harsh Islamic rule. The majority have, as you say, lived under American secular rule. It's weird to remember that the smartphone wasn't even a thing in 2001, but now every one on the planet (except me ) has one, and for better or worse young Afghans are going to want more stuff like that. And such technologies equal access to information, and Islam does not like its adherents (or subjects) having access to information. It'll be interesting to see how the people ultimately react.

KisKatte said:

I am sorry to disagree. A rulership of villains should be stopped. What we usually hear of the Taliban is they kill little girls for wanting them to go to school. No villain should rule. Ever.

Click to expand...

There is a mixture of the attitudes of Afghan women toward the Taliban and Afghan men in general, just like any culture and country. Some don't mind the male-dominated social norms, some less so, and some more so, but it's not as easily voiced there, for the most part, obviously. Here's an informative interview by an excellent investigative, award-winning reporter, Aaron Maté, with two former military men. They talk about their encounters with the Afghan army men and people in the surrounding areas where they were, especially one of them. It's quite enlightening, and unfortunately, with some of the info, not too surprising some of the reasons why we were in Afghanistan for so many years.

The correct take on Afghanistan:

Justin-H.S. said:

The correct take on Afghanistan:

Click to expand...

Youtube is not a reliable source of information on Afghanistan or anything else for that matter.

Rus..... Argument A: "I know more about Russia than anyone here because I live in Russia!"

Father Matt: "I lived in Afghanistan and know the people first-hand."

Rus: WRONG! (in my best John McLaughlin voice) Buzuxi knows best!

rusmeister said:

I think the rub is in that it is not simple. You have both true believers in Islam that likely welcome the Taliban, and people who have enjoyed living under American secular rule. You would have mostly come into contact with the latter there, and anyone that has experienced the freer life offered by the West would realize that some things about Islam suck.
At the same time, Buzuxi must be right that a good number of people don’t actually welcome Americans, and at least some of the Western-exposed ones would despise the moral decay we tolerate and even “celebrate”.
So it’s not a simple picture, either way, and your point about desperate people is right. Certainly those that embraced Western secularism or Christianity are in for a hard, vicious, even murderous time.

Click to expand...

The Taliban obviously has alot of support (how much is debatable) they could not have taken over the capital with such speed if they didn't. We know one of the most wanted terrorists reappeared and walks the streets of Kabul as a celebrity (he does seem to have security so maybe he is not totally accepted) but throngs cheer him on and gives addresses at the main mosque:

America's most-wanted terrorist Khalil Haqqani spotted in crowded Kabul street

The fact is it was their DESTINY to take over. So much so that they will be in control longer they they had to be as our presence only meant them getting their hands on our weapons from night vision goggles to tanks to who knows what else. For the first time ever many of them even look like elite troops unlike the ragged sheepherder look they had 20 years ago.

buzuxi02 said:

The Taliban obviously has alot of support (how much is debatable) they could not have taken over the capital with such speed if they didn't. We know one of the most wanted terrorists reappeared and walks the streets of Kabul as a celebrity (he does seem to have security so maybe he is not totally accepted) but throngs cheer him on and gives addresses at the main mosque:

America's most-wanted terrorist Khalil Haqqani spotted in crowded Kabul street

The fact is it was their DESTINY to take over. So much so that they will be in control longer they they had to be as our presence only meant them getting their hands on our weapons from night vision goggles to tanks to who knows what else. For the first time ever many of them even look like elite troops unlike the ragged sheepherder look they had 20 years ago.

Click to expand...

Listening to some varying opinions on our military and intel leaders/special ops units' relationship with the Taliban over the past few days, I am wondering if we didn't just allow the Taliban back in as another dictatorial government ruling its people like our CIA has installed in other countries, especially in Latin America, over many, many decades. Feeling like Afghanistan has become another spot in which to play world police, but at the same time, continue to rake in the minerals and other resources in the area (lithium, gold, opium) for those with the power and greed for more money.

Dorothea said:

Listening to some varying opinions on our military and intel leaders/special ops units' relationship with the Taliban over the past few days, I am wondering if we didn't just allow the Taliban back in as another dictatorial government ruling its people like our CIA has installed in other countries, especially in Latin America, over many, many decades. Feeling like Afghanistan has become another spot in which to play world police, but at the same time, continue to rake in the minerals and other resources in the area (lithium, gold, opium) for those with the power and greed for more money.

Click to expand...

I think there may be some truth to that. When I saw that photo of the Taliban recreating that WW2 photo of American soldiers raising the american flag (except with Taliban flag) I thought it was photoshopped. But it's an actual photo where everyone has confirmed those are american night vision goggles with actual military uniforms and everything:

buzuxi02 said:

View attachment 304933
I think there may be some truth to that. When I saw that photo of the Taliban recreating that WW2 photo of American soldiers raising the american flag (except with Taliban flag) I thought it was photoshopped. But it's an actual photo where everyone has confirmed those are american night vision goggles with actual military uniforms and everything:

Click to expand...

Good grief. I've never seen that picture.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Rus..... Argument A: "I know more about Russia than anyone here because I live in Russia!"

Father Matt: "I lived in Afghanistan and know the people first-hand."

Rus: WRONG! (in my best John McLaughlin voice) Buzuxi knows best!

Click to expand...

You old simplifier, you! (And I do love simplification of excessively complicated things!)

As a more serious aside for the peanut gallery, who may take such seeming contradiction literally as mere contradiction, I’d say that one who has spent time in a foreign land has an advantage in perspective over those who haven’t; one who lives there and has gone relatively native has an advantage over the visitor, tourist, or military chaplain who was only there for a few months or a year. But conversely, a person with a deep and thoroughly true perspective can have an advantage even over a native living in his own country. (Are you ready for this?) In the book, “What I Saw in America” (1922), GK Chesterton (Hah! I slipped in his name!) displayed a depth of understanding of America and Americans that had this American flabbergasted. The outsider understood things about my own land that I hadn’t.

Obviously, we want as many advantages as we can get in our understandings. But no one man is guaranteed to be absolutely right merely by his status. (But if you guys start talking about Russia, then yeah, I’m going to play my advantage card, while aware of my own limitations.)

good thing for me I wasn't just a guy who was over there a few months, but because of my ASVAB scores, was taught the language and culture by native Pashtuns before deploying.

ArmyMatt said:

good thing for me I wasn't just a guy who was over there a few months, but because of my ASVAB scores, was taught the language and culture by native Pashtuns before deploying.

Click to expand...

Exactly. That falls into the range I described.
Funny how I would have envied you; once I discovered my talent for languages I realized I had been robbed of a professional career as a linguist just because the Navy wanted nuke techs, they saw my high academic scores on the ASVAB and drooled, and ignored my failure-level scores in electrical/mechanical engineering, and eventually got me stuck for 5 years as a relatively incompetent electrician. I even asked to re-enlist as a CTI, and they said, No, the Navy needs electricians. They actually preferred to see me go rather than put me in a field where I had (by then) demonstrated considerable competence in acquiring Italian. So I left and went to college to study foreign languages.