What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

Jesus is YHWH said:

Why are you putting word in my mouth ?

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I'm not. I said that you "appear to" be saying something that I'm not understanding.

I'm trying to understand why you insist upon use of the word "persons" in conversation with non-Christians when it is confusing or misleading to them. But we've been around this bush plenty enough already, so let's move on.

Clare73 said:

The human person of the Son was begotten. Firstborn = primary one (Psalms 89:27), because he created all creatures; had certain rights in relation to all creation--priority, preeminence and sovereignty (Colossians 1:16-18).

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Clare73 said:

I am talking the Incarnation, where to "beget" is to sire.

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Christ was begotten of the Father before all ages, as the Nicene Creed states. The word begotten has no equivalent in Greek. The Greek, it simply says "born of the Father:"

τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων·

Horation said:

Christians are called to spread the word and reach the lost. In the real world, you will never achieve that by discussing many of the subjects on websites such as these. These are discussed not because people are trying to reach the lost but rather because they revel in debate. Two very different things

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And you know the hearts of all who are on this site?

You know that some don't come here seeking understanding that have not yet found on a doctrine?
It's not like the churches are doing a good job of teaching the Bible.

ViaCrucis said:

Yes, Jesus, the Eternal, Almighty, and Most High God--begotten of the Father before all ages--became man. God the Son became man, and the Father exalted Him as King Messiah.

-CryptoLutheran

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1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by this Gospel is preached unto you. : The Gospel of the Kingdom… Psalms 145:13, 2 Samuel 7:12, 1 Chronicles 22:10, Psalms 45:6-8, Isaiah 9:6-7, (Isaiah 40:3, John 1:23)

Horation said:

And for you, worshipping in Spirit and truth is overriding the requirement laid down by Christ as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life?
That to you is right understanding?

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So your objection to scholarship is actually an obejction to the Trinity presented in the NT?

Saving faith is not about who we believe him to be, it is about believing in and trusting on him and what he did in his atoning sacrifice (blood--Romans 3:25) for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," justified.

BTW
Once Christ had returned to Heaven, Christ, Peter and Paul all referred to God as THE God of Christ. So bearing your belief in mind, who is the God of the one true omnipotent God?
Can your scholars and theologians help here?

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As regards his human nature, God was THE God of Christ.
As regards his divine nature, God was the Father of Christ, God the Son.

Andrewn said:

Christ was begotten of the Father before all ages, as the Nicene Creed states. The word begotten has no equivalent in Greek. The Greek, it simply says "born of the Father:"

τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων·

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The Nicene Creed states the Son of God was begotten before all ages.
The human being Jesus of Nazareth was not begotten before all ages.
His humanity was begotten when the Son of God who was begotten before all ages came down from heaven.

Regarding:

Col 1:15
He [the Son] is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
16
For by Him all things were created—
in heaven and on earth,
the seen and the unseen,
whether thrones or angelic powers
or rulers or authorities.
All was created through Him and for Him.
17
He exists before everything,
and in Him all holds together.
18
He is the head of the body, His community.
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead—
so that He might come to have first place in all things.

You wrote to @Clare73 :

Butch5 said:

It doesn't matter what you say firstborn means, what matter is what Paul said it means.

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Butch5 said:

That's not what it says. The firstborn "of" creation. It doesn't matter what your commentary says.

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Butch5 said:

The problem is, Clare, the word over isn't in the Greek text. It's of creation. It's in the genitive case, which is translated of.

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Butch5 said:

He may be over the creation, but Paul said He's the firstborn of creation.

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Col 1:15 ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως

Both your interpretation and Clare's are possible.

In this passage, if the Apostle Paul is thinking of the pre-incarnate Christ, then it is correct to understand “firstborn of all creation” to mean “begotten before all creation.” This is your view and it is supported by verses 16 & 17.

OTOH, if the Apostle is thinking of the exalted Christ, then it is correct to understand “firstborn of all creation” to mean “firstborn over all creation.” This is Clare’s view and is supported by verse 18.

Personally, I prefer your interpretation and find it more intuitive. I wonder how a person who had never heard the Nicene Creed would interpret Col 1:15?

Albion said:

I'm not. I said that you "appear to" be saying something that I'm not understanding.

I'm trying to understand why you insist upon use of the word "persons" in conversation with non-Christians when it is confusing or misleading to them. But we've been around this bush plenty enough already, so let's move on.

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Because everyone can understand what a person is ie having a personality and the characteristics that make one a person.

For example everyone would acknowledge Jesus was a real person. That usually is not up for debate among Muslims.

What is hard to understand is the God is Spirit and what that means. The Holy Spirit is sprit yet we see He is also a Person, has personality and or characteristics of personhood. See below :

Jesus used personal pronouns when referring to the Holy Spirit:

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. "(John 16:7-15).

The Holy Spirit below does things that only a person can do,

He leads (Matt. 4:1).
He is called God (Acts 5:3-4).
He helps and comforts (John 14:16, 16:7).
He convicts of sin (John 16:17).
He gives testimony of Jesus (John 15:26).
He teaches, guides and brings to remembrance (John 14:26, 16:13).
He speaks and instructs (Acts 8:29; 10:19; John 16:13).
He hears and speaks (John 16:13, Acts 28:25-27).
He can be lied to and tested (Acts 5:3-4,9).
He sends and gives life (Acts 13:4, John 3:6, Gen 1:3).
He is a witness (Acts 5:32)
He restrains (2 Thess. 2:7).
He prevents (Acts 16:6-7).
The Spirit "said" to Philip and Peter(Acts 8:29, 10:19).
Peter said he was "told" by the Spirit (Acts 11:12).
The Holy Spirit "solemnly testifies" (Acts 20:23).
He made some of the early Christians overseers to shepherd the Church. (Acts 20:28).
He wills (Acts 13:2).
He interprets our prayers (Rom. 8:26).
He knows and communicates (1 Cor. 2:11; Rom. 8:27).
He reveals (Eph. 3:5).
He has a will-He decides, chooses and distributes the Gifts to the church (1 Cor. 12:11).
He can be grieved (Eph. 4:30).

hope this helps !!!

Horation said:

I've never met anyone who emphasises the Holy Spirit who terms themselves a scholar or theologian.

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I have.

And in reference to the blank posts, more often than I like, I automatically go to "Respond" rather than "Edit" and end up with the same post twice, hence the "."

Bible Highlighter said:

What are the motivations or reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?

I am always fascinated behind the motivations behind why people believe they do. I can understand why some people might hold to various beliefs that I think are unbiblical, but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled. Why do they do this? For there are believers who do not understand the Trinity and yet they accept it by faith it is true (even when they don’t understand it). I admire them for that. For me: I guess I was blessed by the Lord to be able to understand the Trinity right away.

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It's not a simple doctrine of personhood that can easily understood in human terms. It can be confusing when reading the Bible. I'll give you the best example I used to believe.

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35

Now when the Holy Spirit comes upon Mary, doesn't that make God the Father really Jesus' uncle?

The motivations that lead some people to reject the Trinity comes from being flesh and blood with its' limited corroborating evidence as we see personhood experienced in our daily life.

Andrewn said:

Regarding:
Col 1:15 He [the Son] is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created—
in heaven and on earth,
the seen and the unseen,

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whether thrones or angelic powers
or rulers or authorities.
All was created through Him and for Him.
17 He exists before everything,
and in Him all holds together.
18He is the head of the body, His community.
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead—
so that He might come to have first place in all things.

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I just love the "in him all things hold together."

Wow! . . .the implications of that!

Does not "firstborn of all creation" make the second person of the Trinity created, a creature?

Would not the "first born of all creation" refer to the "firstfruits of the resurrection" in the new creation?

Clare73 said:

I just love the "in him all things hold together."

Wow! . . .the implications of that!

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Indeed a Glorious truth and reality by the word of His power !

Jesus is YHWH said:

Because everyone can understand what a person is ie having a personality and the characteristics that make one a person.

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It's beginning to sound like a problem of knowing what the Trinity is rather than how best to present it to an outsider.

Albion said:

You don't think that this sounds like three different people, not just a matter of personality? So as not to be accused of putting words into anyone's mouth, I'll address my own question. NO, the average non-Christian, and particularly those who belong to a religion that teaches them that Christians believe in multiple gods, are not going to get it correct from that choice of words.

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Well here is a newsflash. There are 3 major Monotheistic World Religions.

1- Judaism
2- Islam
3- Christianity

So that is nothing but a strawman argument since Christianity( Trinity ) is considered monotheistic by definition.

And please FACT check me concerning the 3 Monotheistic World Religions. I have been debating the Trinity( Monotheism) for the past 5 decades now so I'm well informed when it comes to the Trinity from a biblical and historical position.

hope this helps !!!

Here I will do it for you.


The Three Monotheistic Religions: Children of One Father
https://www.uwyo.edu › news › 2016/09 › uw-religion-...

Sep 14, 2016 — The three religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam readily fit the definition of monotheism, which is to worship one god while denying ...


Global Connections . Religion | PBS
http://www.pbs.org › wgbh › mideast › themes › religion

Three of the world's major religions -- the monotheist traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- were all born in the Middle East and are all ...
‎brief history of Judaism · ‎Christianity's views of Judaism and Islam


The 3 Monotheistic faiths
https://www.bcsdschools.net › site › filedownload
PPT
The Three Religions of the Middle East- (Also known as Southwest Asia) ... This calendar, which is used throughout the world, is based upon the birth of ...


Monotheism in world religions | Britannica
https://www.britannica.com › ... › Religious Beliefs

Among the three great monotheistic religions, Christianity has a place apart because of the trinitarian creed of this religion in its classic forms, ...


Monotheism: Islam, Judaism & Christianity - Study.com
https://study.com › Courses › Social Science Courses

Three of the most well-known monotheistic religions are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All three of these religions believe in the same God, who is all- ...


Monotheistic Religions of the Middle East
https://www.cmich.edu › Geography › Documents
PDF
Have students map the locations of the followers of the 3 monotheistic (or 5 major world) religions. • Research why Hinduism and Buddhism have not seen the ...
29 pages


Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Abrahamic_religions

The Abrahamic religions, also collectively referred to as the world of Abrahamism, are a group of monotheistic religions that claim to worship the God of ...


An overview of the three main religions - The State Press
https://www.statepress.com › article › 2014/09 › big-thr...

Sep 9, 2014 — Religious differences. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the three major religions in the world. They are known as Abrahamic religions ...


The Abrahamic religions - The British Library
https://www.bl.uk › sacred-texts › articles › the-abraha...

Sep 23, 2019 — The Abrahamic religions ... Dr Anna Sapir Abulafia looks at three of the Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and explores the ...
Article written by: Anna Sapir Abulafia
Themes: Christianity, ‎Islam‎, ‎Judaism

Horation said:

Anyway, time to leave the webisite, better for my spiritual health. Thanks for the brief discussion

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Well, at least you understand that if you can't take the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen.

Clare73 said:

Well, at least you understand that if you can't take the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen.

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Yes internet forums are not designed for the thin skinned. Debating is not for everyone. I like it because it keeps me on my toes, makes me defend my beliefs when challenged and I can learn from others who might have a different perspective and see things from ways I have not looked at them before which is a blessing. Another benefit is it causes me to search things out in Gods word which is a big plus. I'm in the word more often because of forums.

Andrewn said:

The question is how to describe the concept of the Trinity to Muslims and Atheists, who lack the sophistication of deep metaphysics. You disagree to pragmatic approaches proposed by @Albion and @Strong in Him and @Friedrich Rubinstein.
According to Orthodox Christianity, the Son does not proceed from the Father. If the Son proceeds from the Father, the Son would become a 2nd HS.

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And the Nicene Creed?

What "orthodoxy" are you referring to?

The HS does not proceed from the Son. If the HS proceeds from the Son, the Son becomes a 2nd Father.

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And if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, he becomes a second Son?

An agent can be a “substance” as in Chemistry, or a person as in business. I’m sure you meant the 2nd definition.

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Precisely, as the three persons in the Triune God.

But this doesn’t solve any issues. Still, agent = person.

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Precisely, there are three distinct persons in the Triune God.
I have demonstrated their personhood.

You’re back to modalist illustrations. Unless, as you do say, the modes in case of the Trinity are really persons, then we’re back to persons! Explaining the Trinity to an unbeliever is frustrating one way or another.

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Or course, they would be persons in the Godhead.
They would be the three persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, of the one Triune God.

Andrewn said:

Does the word “persons” as understood in modern English mean the same thing as “hypostases,” “personae,” and “qnome?” I’d say, no.

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However, they act as persons, doing the things only persons can do, as well as things only God can do.
"Person" is a perfect word for them.

I also think there is a real difference in how EO and RC understand the Trinity concept. There is a spectrum of beliefs: RC may have a slightly Modalistic understanding and EO may have a slightly semi-Arian understanding.

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RC is not modalistic, and it is orthodox.

Albion said:

I think the point was that when we are trying to explain something like this to people who have no background in our religion and are, in fact, skeptics, we want to get through to them. And the way to do that is to avoid using terms and words that they will misunderstand. "Person" is in that category, even if we Christians know exactly what we mean by it.

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Persons is not in that category, and I would say he is clearly denying the three perons of the Triune God.