Was Afghanistan worth it?

Was Afghanistan worth it?


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Halbhh

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Other: we had an plausible original goal of arresting or capturing some responsible for 9/11. And, also we did some things that were beneficial, supporting schools, and a lot of girls and boys got some education, for instance. That's not a bad thing, and was worth it in and of itself.

We did stay too long, but it's understandable in one way: as a nation (decision by committee), we had the group think idea that somehow we could create democracy that would endure against the religious warlike group that had fought to take over since long before we arrived (and which was supported in some ways it seems indirectly by Pakistan). Maybe that would be possible in 50 years, hard to say. It was best to leave I think but obviously not planned all that well in that there wasn't enough ability to change course at the end when it became clear that the Taliban would rapidly advance. It would have been good to surge in 10,000 or more troops into Kabul a week earlier, and make evacuations a lot easier, make the Taliban wait outside the city or such.
 
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cradleGO

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It cost trillions, was paid for on credit rather than with taxes and soldiers died only to see a chaotic withdrawal and the restoration of Taliban rule. So was it worth the cost in blood and treasure?

It wasn't "trillions", although I heard 2 trillion, but most commonly, 1 trillion. No modern war has been on a taxed basis. The closest to that is World War 2 - not very close. As to seeing soldiers' die but having bad results ultimately, the model is the British soldiery since forever. The US is a volunteer force. The US has wide-ranging interests, some of which won't turn out well. But forces will be deployed and engage with the enemy nonetheless. It would have been very unlikely for any party but the Taliban to prevail. The Pashtuns are the majority. As to territory, Kandahar in the south would have fallen early, and did. Pashtun central.

As to "worth it", the US had to be there until Osama bib-Laden was killed or captured. So, that is ten years - May 2011. The rest was a waste, although as some of the comments here state, the changes made due to the US "rule" may already have influenced the Taliban going forward, but will make their rule more difficult in any case if their approach remains 7th century desert Arabian. Cannot get the genie back into the bottle, so to speak. As to benefits, the US can now fight at altitude, and knows its limits against an insurgency of a clever foe in scruffy terrain. Plus it has field tested a great deal of equipment over the years.


Some observations to stimulate discussion:

1) Throughout the time the coalition was there opium production was promoted by the Taliban feeding Western markets. There is a chance now the Taliban may now end this drug supply.

No chance that the Taliban scraps the opium trade. It will be disguised. They need the money.

2) The death rate during the occupation .... No comment.

3) Afghanistan is now Sunni again and a natural ally of Pakistan with repercussions for the balance of power in the Indian subcontinent.

The country was always Sunni. I doubt Pakistan is any role model to the Taliban, nor will India be harmed by a Taliban Afganistan.

4) As with Vietnam it has again been demonstrated .... No Comment.

5) The willingness to die for a cause is more evident for those who subscribe to Islam than secularised liberal democrats. Is the credibility of the West undermined by its secularism and its commitment to immoral causes like LGBTQ? Does the West have the tools to deal with Islam e.g. compared to Russia or China?

The US didn't lose because the Taliban were willing to die. The Taliban were willing to wait out the US, and to the extent that failed, were willing to harass the US and the "government" forces so induce the US to leave. Now, Islam loves to kill, and the mythology of it says that warriors are especially rewarded, so given a cause (a necessary component) an Islamic force will be a determined foe - until it isn't, such as Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Both Russia and China are more brutal in an occupation role, but as the exit of the USSR from Afghanistan shows ("Charlie Wilson's War" film), faced with a financed effort, Russia gave up. China would last longer but unless the stakes are too high (Tibet), it too would exit.


6) Corruption undermines governance in this country and the Coalition failed to control it and indeed encouraged it. Why was the Occupation so blind to the corruption it actively encouraged?

To control corruption, the Coalition - the US - would be fighting on two fronts. After Osama was killed, that is when the US should have shut it down. Corruption in an environment of corruption is nearly an impossible to meaningfully stifle. There are plenty pf tax chats in the US, so it cannot be eliminated.

7) At the moment it looks like the primary objective of eliminating Afghanistan as a safe haven for terrorists was achieved as the Taliban do not want any foreign fighters on their soil.

We'll see soon enough. They need money and ISIS and others can pay, so ? They will be very foolish to do so - ISIS launches something from the country - as Biden will hammer them. Whatever you think of Biden, he has a mean streak.

I do not now if I did the quoting correctly. We'll see.
 
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mindlight

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mindlight

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It depends

The U.S. government gave the top five defense contractors $156.4 billion in contracts for fiscal year 2020.
51 lawmakers owned up to $5.8 million worth of defense contractor stocks as of last year.
Members of the military-industrial complex certainly profited from the war in Afghanistan.

The money was not wasted it was recycled being the view expressed. But since the war was paid for on credit the effect is that a bunch of rich contractors benefit while the bulk of Americans must now pay the interest on the extra debt. So the war contributed to social inequality and social injustice inside the USA.
 
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mindlight

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I do agree the logistics of the withdrawal was horrible. However I and no one else should not fool themselves, the take over of Afghanistan by the Taliban was inevitable.

Many of those original Taliban that hosted Al Quaeda are now dead. But the movement itself is still there.
 
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RDKirk

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Wow, interesting. Could you source that?


I
n recent months, the Afghan military was unable to provide vital supplies such as food and ammunition to outposts scattered around the country.
How the Afghan Army Collapsed Under the Taliban’s Pressure | Council on Foreign Relations (cfr.org)


First, there was widespread corruption in Afghanistan’s defence and interior ministries where funds, ammunition and food deliveries were stolen before reaching the soldiers on the ground. The ammunition and other equipment were sold on the black market, eventually ending up in the Taliban’s hands.

Furthermore, some commanders embezzled money by submitting fund requests for the salaries of “ghost soldiers” – i.e. soldiers who had not actually signed up for the military. As this was happening, ANDSF personnel were kept unpaid and retained on duty without permission to leave and see their families for months.

Why did the Afghan army disintegrate so quickly? | Taliban | Al Jazeera

Some generals pocketed pay meant for soldiers. Others were supposed to buy the best rice for their troops. Instead they bought the cheapest and lowest quality possible and pocketed the difference. Still others sold government-issued firewood meant to keep the troops warm.
U.S. Military Training Of Afghan Army Wasn't Enough To Stop The Taliban : NPR

Rank-and-file Afghan soldiers and police officers were apparently well aware of this corruption, both in the government and within the ANDSF, and it did not do wonders for morale. When the U.S. began to pull out and the Taliban began to advance — reportedly offering amnesty and even cash for poorly fed security forces, some of whom hadn’t been paid in months, to lay down their arms and go home — it’s not surprising what happened next.
Why Afghanistan’s Security Forces Suddenly Collapsed (nymag.com)
 
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mindlight

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They probably won't. But they will make sure it isn't consumed in Afghanistan.

Many Afghan refugees are addicted and now returning. The estimates I have heard make it about 2.5 million people or 10% of the population as addicts. This is a significant domestic issue for the Taliban.

Afghanistan has always been 90% Sunni. That hasn't changed. The Taliban are Pakistani, and since the Pakistanis have never been seriously anti-Taliban, it won't make that much difference.

In terms of control, it was not a Sunni instinct that governed the place with the USA in charge, The USA is more friendly with India than Pakistan and especially under Trump. But now the rulers are brothers in the faith with the Pakistanis.

They weren't going anywhere. I think Nazis could have defeated them, but the US isn't Nazi. The Russians aren't even Nazis.

The Nazis would have probably ended up murdering half the population to obtain control. But of course, the Nazis were allied to Muslims as they both hated Jews.

Doesn't make any difference whether you're talking about Republicans or Democrats, America does not subscribe to Islamic doctrine. As far as tools to deal with Islam, both Russia and China are having their own difficulties...and far worse difficulties within their borders than the US. "Infidel" is "infidel."

For all the bad press that China gets it seems that they have dealt with the Uighur problem with their concentration camps, murders, and by bringing Chinese workers into the region from elsewhere. There is no armed rebellion to speak of. Also, the Russians with the brutality they showed in Chechnya seemed to have Muslims under control. They get terrorist attacks, the last was in 2017, but it is not an armed insurrection.

Corruption--to the extent that it becomes dangerous to the functioning of the country--is a matter of individuals having some sense of civic duty. It's still a mystery how that is instilled into a population that doesn't have it.

Afghanistan needs to become a Christian nation. The Taliban by modeling the true face of Islam may already be changing hearts and minds towards Jesus. As for Iran, I pray for the growth of the underground church. We have already seen many Afghans in exile here in Europe come to Jesus so why not those still back home. It will need to be a church that is not afraid to die and therefore far less flabby and comfortable than the Western churches. Maybe the Americans leaving means that this homegrown set of believers can now be unleashed. Many of these will be martyred.

At this point, the US has the technological capability to deal with such matters that didn't exist twenty years ago.

We had cruise missiles 20 years ago. But drone strikes and surveillance is better now and bases do not have to be in the country for that. The US can kill specific people with impunity as always. The impacts on hearts and minds inside the country should be considered more carefully though as the Taliban will use such strikes to unite the country against a common enemy.
 
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mindlight

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Al Jazeera said troops were retained without pay. Other sources said commanders were skimming off money from the wages paid.

So maybe some troops got their wages, others had their wage packets skimmed by corrupt generals and others were retained without pay.

What strikes me about this situation and the dissonance between Biden's impressions of the capability of the Afghans and the reality on the ground is another intelligence failure. Indeed it is the same intelligence failure that led to 911 in the first place. Not a failure of the actual intelligence on the ground but rather how it is filtered through command and control to the highest leaders. Americans cannot help themselves and have a tendency to only pass up good news. The initial report is passed like Chinese whispers up the chain becoming more and more positive as it goes until it is the opposite of the original report:

Afghan soldiers are not being paid and morale is low BECOMES The army is facing its challenges, BECOMES There are challenges but we are coping BECOMES We are coping
BECOMES Everything is fine.
 
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RDKirk

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Afghanistan needs to become a Christian nation. The Taliban by modeling the true face of Islam may already be changing hearts and minds towards Jesus. As for Iran, I pray for the growth of the underground church. We have already seen many Afghans in exile here in Europe come to Jesus so why not those still back home. It will need to be a church that is not afraid to die and therefore far less flabby and comfortable than the Western churches. Maybe the Americans leaving means that this homegrown set of believers can now be unleashed. Many of these will be martyred.

I had a zoom meeting with some US missionaries last night who had just gotten out of Afghanistan only days ago, along with a number of native Afghan Christians. They didn't have very hopeful news at this point.
 
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John Mullally

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The money was not wasted it was recycled being the view expressed. But since the war was paid for on credit the effect is that a bunch of rich contractors benefit while the bulk of Americans must now pay the interest on the extra debt. So the war contributed to social inequality and social injustice inside the USA.
You have a habit of lecturing Americans
 
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mindlight

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You have a habit of lecturing Americans. Watch your tone. Do you need to reminded of German history? Would you prefer to speak Russian?

Seems you need a lecture mate. I am British and became German only recently also. So go wave that pointy finger and false assumptions about my history somewhere else. Both Britain and Germany were with America in Afghanistan and so have a seat at the table on this. I am married to an American and have an American grandfather and last time I looked this was a place where free and honest opinions could be expressed. Stolen election claims and anti-vax movements make a lot of Americans a joke internationally. These things need to be said because these things are lies and many of the people on this Christian forum claim to be brothers in the Lord. You rebuke a brother when he sins.

You edited your reply after this response:

and now on social injustice - a lot could be said on that - check your own history. Germany continues to renege on its NATO obligations.

Germany has a very good balance between a strong capitalist globally competitive economy and social concern. It is ideally placed to look at America and suggest major improvements relating to social justice and other things because it is quite simply doing better on most things:

1) HEALTH: - We have comprehensive health care that actually works and produces higher health outcomes for the whole population (Life expectancy in Germany is 2-3 years higher and healthy life the same). Our system costs about half the American one that only really works for rich people. Education is better for the mass of people here also.

2) SAFETY AND SECURITY: You are 5 times more likely to be raped or murdered in the USA

3) CARE FOR THE POOR: We have a comprehensive system yours is patchy.

4) WEALTH INEQUALITY: Both countries have big inequality of actual wealth but I believe it is easier and more dignified to be poor in this country.

5) Germany has lower debt, a budget surplus (till the Pandemic), and a trade surplus, unlike the USA.

That said, being a major economic power Germany should be paying for its own defense and meeting the 2% target as the UK and USA do. Germans themselves often use their history as an excuse not to pay more for the military. They worry that other European countries would be uncomfortable with a strong German military. But personally, I do not care about that and think that Germany should be paying more while remaining in NATO. Both the CDU and FDP here in Germany agree with this position. The real reason Germans do not want to spend more is that they want to spend the money on other things and do not feel threatened by anyone at the moment. Personally, I think too many Germans take American support for granted. That is wrong we should be paying our way here.
 
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mindlight

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I had a zoom meeting with some US missionaries last night who had just gotten out of Afghanistan only days ago, along with a number of native Afghan Christians. They didn't have very hopeful news at this point.

That is painful to hear but seems more realistic than the claims on that youtube video.

But however bleak the situation it is never a reason to despair. May God bless the church in Afghanistan through this terrible time.
 
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mindlight

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There is a difference between a defense focused military and the U.S. playing international policeman trying to impose its way of life on different cultures that don't want it. I believe U.S. foreign policy is amiss because we do too much of the latter. It really hasn't worked out well for us.

Biden said 'America is Back' and then he made this unilateral decision to withdraw from Afghanistan without consulting his allies. America gets great benefits from its membership of NATO, bases, extra troops and resources, intelligence, etc that all contribute to the defense of America and American interests. That security is threatened by 'America First' unilateralism as was exhibited in the way Biden did this and with what Trump modeled the last 4 years also. If this is how you treat your friends then why should we fight for you - was what the Afghan soldiers said, maybe some NATO soldiers understand what they meant.
 
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cradleGO

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Biden said 'America is Back' and then he made this unilateral decision to withdraw from Afghanistan without consulting his allies. America gets great benefits from its membership of NATO, bases, extra troops and resources, intelligence, etc that all contribute to the defense of America and American interests. That security is threatened by 'America First' unilateralism as was exhibited in the way Biden did this and with what Trump modeled the last 4 years also. If this is how you treat your friends then why should we fight for you - was what the Afghan soldiers said, maybe some NATO soldiers understand what they meant.
Trump made the decision to leave. The date was set as May 1, 2021. Biden didn't do anything that the Alliance/NATO didn't know about.
As to NATO, having the alliance is very important because of Putin and European thugs in general. As to benefits, the main one might be intelligence, but more is probably going east than coming west.
 
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mindlight

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Trump made the decision to leave. The date was set as May 1, 2021. Biden didn't do anything that the Alliance/NATO didn't know about.
As to NATO, having the alliance is very important because of Putin and European thugs in general. As to benefits, the main one might be intelligence, but more is probably going east than coming west.

The decision to withdraw was done with a consultation. Sorry, that was wrong. But the abrupt character of the execution plan was done without consultation and caused chaos. The Germans for example, in part, wanted to stay there because it was a way to manage the deportation of illegal immigrants from Afghanistan and to try and ensure that people did not want to migrate in the first place. Now those options are gone and we can all expect a wave of emigrants escaping the Taliban. The way this done echoes the whole America First idiocy of Trump that undermined American security relationships around the world.

More than 400 British troops died in Afghanistan! We provide an aircraft carrier battle group and bases all around the world including Diego Garcia and the listening station in Cyprus. This is not just intelligence sharing.

Joe Biden promised allies 'America is back.' Chaotic Afghanistan withdrawal is making them fear it's still 'America First.' - CNNPolitics
 
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mikeforjesus

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I believe it was the right decision to go as America needed to defend itself from extreme attacks to go only after the criminals purposely but I believe no one should ever go to be a soldier unless they are Christian and believe they are following the bible but they needed to withdraw now as taliban closed country and claim that they will rule it well
 
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May defeat be a new beginning in which a future without Islamists can be imagined

talibanpic.png
 
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cradleGO

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The decision to withdraw was done with a consultation. Sorry, that was wrong. But the abrupt character of the execution plan was done without consultation and caused chaos. The Germans for example, in part, wanted to stay there because it was a way to manage the deportation of illegal immigrants from Afghanistan and to try and ensure that people did not want to migrate in the first place. Now those options are gone and we can all expect a wave of emigrants escaping the Taliban. The way this done echoes the whole America First idiocy of Trump that undermined American security relationships around the world.

More than 400 British troops died in Afghanistan! We provide an aircraft carrier battle group and bases all around the world including Diego Garcia and the listening station in Cyprus. This is not just intelligence sharing.

Joe Biden promised allies 'America is back.' Chaotic Afghanistan withdrawal is making them fear it's still 'America First.' - CNNPolitics
If the Germans and British were caught flat-footed - as to the abruptness of the Taliban takeover - then that is on them. They have their own sources of intelligence. Sounds like it was common to be surprised that the government forces would quit so quickly. Therefore, sounds like there isn't an "America First" element in this.
As to the presumed reason that Germany is involved, that is ridiculous. The migrants will be an issue as long as anyone can leave Afghanistan or any Islamic country. Having a few hundred German troops or NGOs in country wouldn't make any difference.
 
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Say it aint so

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Thank you sir, ma'am. Routing out corruption in a country where it's not only the norm, but everyone has to take on the "look out for themselves" corruption be damned. It's kind of hard to run the military let lone a country that way.
 
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