What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

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The Liturgist

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Exactly. Jesus said, 'that they may be one as we are one'. I don't know any Christian who argues that all Christians are a single being or that there is a single being that consists of all Christians. His prayer is that Christians would be one as He and the Father are one. I don't think Jesus thought that all Christians would morph into a single being. He's praying for unity. So, if He didn't intend for all Christians to be one single being then He's not saying that He and the Father are one single being, thus He's not saying there is a being called God that consist of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in his brilliant theological work The Orthodox Way conceptualizes the Trinity as an eternal union of pure, perfect, absolute love, and that we are called to make our churches, our family life, our friendships, and our relations with other people icons of this perfect love.

It's crystal clear, yet people simply ignore it in favor of some 5th century doctrine that 5th century church leaders told them they have to believe to be saved. They break down the comparison that Jesus made. They say Christians are one in unity, but God is one in number. That's not what Jesus said. He wanted both groups to be one in the same manner. I just don't see how people ignore this.

Wait a second - what fifth century doctrine are you talking about?

Christianity is a monotheistic religion and always has been; at no point did the bishops of the early church sit down and contrive the doctrine of monotheism or of the Trinity. In the Fourth Century, there was an ecumenical council in response to Arius, who was a presbyter in the church of Alexandria who caused a scandal by teaching that Jesus Christ was a creature, which was an unheard of doctrine, and the anathema against Arius was nearly unanimous (technically it was unanimous, but the 5 or so bishops who supported him left the council early, and Eusebius of Caesarea, who was an Arian sympathizer, voted for the anathema but later equivocated on it). Arius won powerful supporters, however, including Emperor Constantine’s heir Constantius, who initiated a persecution of Christians by Arians that lasted into the reign of Emperor Theodosius.
 
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Horation

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Look at the passage. It says first born of all creation. That means before creation.
I haven't read much of church fathers but Tertullian wrote there was a time God could not strictly be called Father for there was a time before he brought forth Christ
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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God is indeed unoriginate, and has indeed always existed as Father, Son and Holy Ghost, so your intuition is pointing you in the right direction.

In the Nicene Creed we confess that Jesus Christ was begotten of the Father before all ages, and this is what makes the Father the Father. The Spirit likewise proceeds eternally from the Father. This makes Him the unoriginate source of the Godhead. However, Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, is not a creature, the Holy Spirit is not a creature, and there was never a time when they did not exist. All three persons are co-eternal.

Indeed, since John 1 says that through Jesus Christ all things were made, and time is a thing, we assert that God did create time, which makes sense since we know the Universe to be spacetime, and God created the Universe ex nihlo, otherwise, there would be uncreated things in the Universe.
This is where I’m not in agreement with the creed. Source implies Someone priori . Begotten is also misused as if there was a time the Son was not. Eternal and Co- Equal eliminates any priori unless you want to talk about a difference in roles or functions that are relational and not one of nature. But we can agree to disagree .
 
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I haven't read much of church fathers but Tertullian wrote there was a time God could not strictly be called Father for there was a time before he brought forth Christ
That’s false . Eternal means without beginning and Co Equal does as well.
 
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The Liturgist

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The human person of the Son was begotten.

Firstborn = primary one (Psalms 89:27), because he created all creatures; had certain rights in relation to all creation--priority, preeminence and sovereignty (Colossians 1:16-18).

No, that’s not what the Creed / CF.com Statement of Faith says. It teaches us that the Son was begotten of the Father before all ages.

In fact, to outline the correct faith on the Holy Trinity with sources, I am going to just Copy and Paste the CF.Com Statement of Faith, because the owners of this forum were nice enough to use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed as the central portion of the Statement of Faith.

So here we go, this is the correct doctrine:


Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
  • Open Theism
  • Universalism
 
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The Liturgist

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This is where I’m not in agreement with the creed. Source implies Someone priori . Begotten is also misused as if there was a time the Son was not. Eternal and Co- Equal eliminates any priori unless you want to talk about a difference in roles or functions that are relational and not one of nature. But we can agree to disagree .

Well, in this case we can’t, because we are talking about the Creed used in the ChristianForums Statement of Faith. If you can reframe your objection so it refers only to my interpretation of the Creed, then we can debate the issue or agree to disagree. We can also debate or agree to disagree as much as anyone wants about the Athanasian and Apostles Creeds.
 
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Clare73

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No, that’s not what the Creed / CF.com Statement of Faith says. It teaches us that the Son was begotten of the Father before all ages.
Yes, the Son of God was.
But the incarnate Son of God was not.
I am talking the Incarnation, where to "beget" is to sire.
In fact, to outline the correct faith on the Holy Trinity with sources, I am going to just Copy and Paste the CF.Com Statement of Faith, because the owners of this forum were nice enough to use the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed as the central portion of the Statement of Faith.

So here we go, this is the correct doctrine:


Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
  • Open Theism
  • Universalism
 
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Butch5

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Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in his brilliant theological work The Orthodox Way conceptualizes the Trinity as an eternal union of pure, perfect, absolute love, and that we are called to make our churches, our family life, our friendships, and our relations with other people icons of this perfect love.



Wait a second - what fifth century doctrine are you talking about?

Christianity is a monotheistic religion and always has been; at no point did the bishops of the early church sit down and contrive the doctrine of monotheism or of the Trinity. In the Fourth Century, there was an ecumenical council in response to Arius, who was a presbyter in the church of Alexandria who caused a scandal by teaching that Jesus Christ was a creature, which was an unheard of doctrine, and the anathema against Arius was nearly unanimous (technically it was unanimous, but the 5 or so bishops who supported him left the council early, and Eusebius of Caesarea, who was an Arian sympathizer, voted for the anathema but later equivocated on it). Arius won powerful supporters, however, including Emperor Constantine’s heir Constantius, who initiated a persecution of Christians by Arians that lasted into the reign of Emperor Theodosius.

Hi Liturgist,

The fifth century doctrine I was talking about is the Athanasian Creed. That's where we see this one in three idea.

I give stock to the early writers. However, as we get further from the time of the apostles I put less stock in what Christians said. Once the persecution of the church stopped, the church began a downward slide. I don't put a lot of stock into church councils as the victors write the history. When I look at the earliest writers and those later on I often see changes. I look at what people say and compare that to the Scriptures. Take the Athanasian Creed for example. I look at it and it is vastly different from what I see in Scripture. It's even markedly different than the Nicene Creed. Since it runs counter to the Scriptures I have to reject it. One can go through that creed and point out numerous logical contradictions and contradictions with the Scriptures. It doesn't matter to me who wrote it. If it doesn't align with Scripture I'm tossing it aside.
 
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Butch5

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I haven't read much of church fathers but Tertullian wrote there was a time God could not strictly be called Father for there was a time before he brought forth Christ

Yes, he did. Who would be called Father if they had no child? It's like I said in the other post. It's right there in the Scriptures for everyone to see if they'd stop trying to impose preconceived ideas onto the text. Paul said that Jesus is the first born of creation. The Nicene Creed says that He was begotten before all worlds or ages. That obviously isn't referring to the incarnation. Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came out of God. It's all right in the Scriptures.
 
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Clare73

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It doesn't matter what you say firstborn means,
what matters is what Paul said it means.
And that is what Paul said it means.

The firstborn over all creation = primary one (Psalms 89:27); with certain rights in relation to all creation--priority, preeminence and sovereignty (Colossians 1:16-18--Paul speaking).

First born of the new creation, first to rise with a resurrection body, "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 15:20, Paul speaking).
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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The only reason the creeds existed was due to heresies that crept into the Church. It’s clear from Scripture alone that the Father, the Son snd the Holy Spirit are called God and that God is multi personal. Jesus elaborated on this in John 14-17 snd Matthew 28:18-20.
 
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And that is what Paul said it means.

The firstborn over all creation = primary one (Psalms 89:27); with certain rights in relation to all creation--priority, preeminence and sovereignty (Colossians 1:16-18--Paul speaking).

First born of the new creation, first to rise with a resurrection body, "firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 15:20, Paul speaking).

That's not what it says. The firstborn "of" creation. It doesn't matter what your commentary says.
 
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Horation

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Yes, he did. Who would be called Father if they had no child? It's like I said in the other post. It's right there in the Scriptures for everyone to see if they'd stop trying to impose preconceived ideas onto the text. Paul said that Jesus is the first born of creation. The Nicene Creed says that He was begotten before all worlds or ages. That obviously isn't referring to the incarnation. Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came out of God. It's all right in the Scriptures.
Imagine someone who has spent years, If not decades studying theology. They have read the bible greatly. They have read many books of scholars and theologians. They may have sought out the Greek and aramatic texts of scripture, and much Consulted concordances such as strongs. After all of this, they believe they have much know,edge and are satisfied with the work involved to give them such enlightenment. I'm afraid it won't matter what Scripture you place before such People, it must be ignored or explained away by any means. Anything else would be unthinkable.
If its any consolation, for what my view is worth, you are led of the Holy Spirit into truth. God bless
 
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Clare73

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That's not what it says. The firstborn "of" creation. It doesn't matter what your commentary says.
No commentary. . .NIV translation.

Vv. 16-18 make it pretty clear what v. 15 means by "of"--priority, preeminence and sovereignty, which is a good description of "over."

Try context every now and then, it's fun!
 
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Horation

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Yes, he did. Who would be called Father if they had no child? It's like I said in the other post. It's right there in the Scriptures for everyone to see if they'd stop trying to impose preconceived ideas onto the text. Paul said that Jesus is the first born of creation. The Nicene Creed says that He was begotten before all worlds or ages. That obviously isn't referring to the incarnation. Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came out of God. It's all right in the Scriptures.
And remember, some in these types of discussions' will say it is not enough to believe Jesus is the Son of God to attain to heaven, you must give him the title the one true God. Which in reality is stating you will be condemned if you stand on the plain words of Christ whe he walked this earth
The Holy Spirit could ,lead no one to think such, but the academic mind could
 
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Imagine someone who has spent years, If not decades studying theology. They have read the bible greatly. They have read many books of scholars and theologians. They may have sought out the Greek and aramatic texts of scripture, and much Consulted concordances such as strongs. After all of this, they believe they have much know,edge and are satisfied with the work involved to give them such enlightenment. I'm afraid it won't matter what Scripture you place before such People, it must be ignored or explained away by any means. Anything else would be unthinkable.
If its any consolation, for what my view is worth, you are led of the Holy Spirit into truth. God bless

Thanks! Yeah, I've often seen that. When someone spends thousands on a Biblical degree how likely are they to consider anything else? It sure wouldn't be very comforting knowing one spent thousands of dollars being wrongly taught what the Bible is all about. To your point, when the church comes together on a doctrine and anathematizes any opposition to it there's not much hope for correcting it if it's wrong. Anyone who challenges it will be castigated and deemed a heretic. When you look at this doctrine that it's history. Try to get on a translation board if you don't believe the doctrine. It's not likely to happen. So, whatever understanding of the doctrine there is gets baked into the translations.
 
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