Was Afghanistan worth it?

Was Afghanistan worth it?


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mindlight

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It cost trillions, was paid for on credit rather than with taxes and soldiers died only to see a chaotic withdrawal and the restoration of Taliban rule. So was it worth the cost in blood and treasure?

Some observations to stimulate discussion:

1) Throughout the time the coalition was there opium production was promoted by the Taliban feeding Western markets. There is a chance now the Taliban may now end this drug supply.

2) The death rate during the occupation may have been lower than in normal times in Afghanistan as they tend to kill each other anyway. Reductions in infant mortality and improvements in health care should also be a part of that count. The population size almost doubled during the occupation.

3) Afghanistan is now Sunni again and a natural ally of Pakistan with repercussions for the balance of power in the Indian subcontinent.

4) As with Vietnam it has again been demonstrated that a determined people can overthrow a technically superior opponent by sheer willpower.

5) The willingness to die for a cause is more evident for those who subscribe to Islam than secularised liberal democrats. Is the credibility of the West undermined by its secularism and its commitment to immoral causes like LGBTQ? Does the West have the tools to deal with Islam e.g. compared to Russia or China?

6) Corruption undermines governance in this country and the Coalition failed to control it and indeed encouraged it. Why was the Occupation so blind to the corruption it actively encouraged?

7) At the moment it looks like the primary objective of eliminating Afghanistan as a safe haven for terrorists was achieved as the Taliban do not want any foreign fighters on their soil.
 
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6) Corruption undermines governance in this country and the Coalition failed to control it and indeed encouraged it. Why was the Occupation so blind to the corruption it actively encouraged?

Nobody here in America has to go all the way to Afghanistan to see what corruption looks like. I'm certain your local State capital or precious Washington, D.C. will satisfy your curiosity. This country is looking more like a Latin American country every day. A two tiered justice system. One for the wealthy and a different one for those without connection or means. No Rule of Law!
 
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Nithavela

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1) Throughout the time the coalition was there opium production was promoted by the Taliban feeding Western markets. There is a chance now the Taliban may now end this drug supply.

You don't think the taliban will need money? Of course they'll continue opium production, they'll just have to deal with less opposition. They'll just forbid the consumption in their own country (don't get high from your own supply)

2) The death rate during the occupation may have been lower than in normal times in Afghanistan as they tend to kill each other anyway. Reductions in infant mortality and improvements in health care should also be a part of that count. The population size almost doubled during the occupation.
Not only did the population size double, but 60 % of afghanistan people are under 24, and thus only remember a post-taliban life. It will be hard for the Taliban to continue surpressing that memory. The mere fact that there were demonstrations against taliban rule, which remind me personally of belarus and hong kong, are proof enough of that. It will only be a matter of time before those people put away the flags and grab the guns, and then it's civil war again.

3) Afghanistan is now Sunni again and a natural ally of Pakistan with repercussions for the balance of power in the Indian subcontinent.
The Taliban have very little interest in India, and Afghanistan has very little power to project in that direction.

4) As with Vietnam it has again been demonstrated that a determined people can overthrow a technically superior opponent by sheer willpower.
As if that was in any question.

5) The willingness to die for a cause is more evident for those who subscribe to Islam than secularised liberal democrats. Is the credibility of the West undermined by its secularism and its commitment to immoral causes like LGBTQ? Does the West have the tools to deal with Islam e.g. compared to Russia or China?
Personally I think that not willing to die for an abstract cause is a good thing.

6) Corruption undermines governance in this country and the Coalition failed to control it and indeed encouraged it. Why was the Occupation so blind to the corruption it actively encouraged?
There was never any more than a token effort to nation build in Afghanistan.

7) At the moment it looks like the primary objective of eliminating Afghanistan as a safe haven for terrorists was achieved as the Taliban do not want any foreign fighters on their soil.
We'll see how that changes.
 
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mindlight

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Nobody here in America has to go all the way to Afghanistan to see what corruption looks like. I'm certain your local State capital or precious Washington, D.C. will satisfy your curiosity. This country is looking more like a Latin American country every day. A two tiered justice system. One for the wealthy and a different one for those without connection or means. No Rule of Law!

I am British(11) - German(12). Both my countries have far lower levels of corruption than the USA (26) and Afghanistan (73). Your major rivals are more corrupt: Russia(55), China(56)

Global Corruption Index | Global Corruption & ESG Indexes

I agree that you have a lot of lawyers that just seem to work to support rich people over poor people and that the US system needs an overhaul. Maybe this was part of the problem, Americans do not have a proper model domestically to combat corruption internationally.
 
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Nithavela

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I am British(11) - German(12). Both my countries have far lower levels of corruption than the USA (26) and Afghanistan (73). Your major rivals are more corrupt: Russia(55), China(56)

Global Corruption Index | Global Corruption & ESG Indexes

I agree that you have a lot of lawyers that just seem to work to support rich people over poor people and that the US system needs an overhaul. Maybe this was part of the problem, Americans do not have a proper model domestically to combat corruption internationally.
I don't think Germany has low corruption. It's just built into the political system as lobbying and "donations".
 
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mindlight

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You don't think the taliban will need money? Of course they'll continue opium production, they'll just have to deal with less opposition. They'll just forbid the consumption in their own country (don't get high from your own supply)

Ironically a great many Afghan refugees have become addicted to heroin that came from Afghanistan. Many of these are now in Afghanistan. So maybe 2-2,5 million drug addicts in the country. That costs medical resources and is a moral problem for an Islamist regime. So it is not just about making money off the dirty habits of Western unbelievers. Also, Afghanistan does not have much farming land and it has a growing population. It needs to use that land for food, not drugs. I wonder what effect this will now have on the 'smack track' through Turkey and the northern route through Russia. Economically it is a lot of money and so they need a working economy to shift away from being a drug mafia state to a true Caliphate.

Not only did the population size double, but 60 % of afghanistan people are under 24, and thus only remember a post-taliban life. It will be hard for the Taliban to continue surpressing that memory. The mere fact that there were demonstrations against taliban rule, which remind me personally of belarus and hong kong, are proof enough of that. It will only be a matter of time before those people put away the flags and grab the guns, and then it's civil war again.

I hope that Afghans have had enough of fighting but like you I somehow doubt that. It is their history and blood feuds and revenge is part of the culture. The Taliban are more terrifying to the locals than the Coalition was to them, I wonder if that will change some bad habits. After all the Taliban now have all that American military equipment with which to beat up their domestic enemies. Neither Belarus or Hong Kong have armed rebellions and the protests there are different.

The Taliban have very little interest in India, and Afghanistan has very little power to project in that direction.

It eliminates uncertainty for Pakistan. Historically India has played Afghanistan against them but now they have a neutral or even an ally there. This might have implications for domestic terrorism and release more troops for India-focused operations.

Personally I think that not willing to die for an abstract cause is a good thing.

But it makes you less scary. It is the crazy man who would really go there that wins the fight.

There was never any more than a token effort to nation build in Afghanistan.

The only successful examples of the transformation of previously Islamic countries have involved the use of force. There was not the will to make this happen here and I worry that only an imperial country like the old European empires, Russia or China could actually accomplish this in practice.


We'll see how that changes.
Yes indeed watch this space.
 
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mindlight

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I don't think Germany has low corruption. It's just built into the political system as lobbying and "donations".

Definitions are really important. Like covid vaccinations for instance. If you understood the system, had friends in the right places and played the loopholes you got vaccinated before people who simply waited their turn. If you are a big car company then the government will give you tax breaks that the Mittelstand do not get and turn a blind eye to environmental concerns with your exhaust. But overall I think there is less corruption here than the USA.
 
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I don't think Germany has low corruption. It's just built into the political system as lobbying and "donations".

Here in America Congress people have the ability for insider trading on the stock market as a benefit to belonging to congress in addition to what your politicians involve themselves with. One was even married to a brother before divorcing him and marrying her Campaign organizer - after she paid him vast sums from her campaign fund. Another had a Chinese spy working as her driver for 20 years! Another had an affair with a foreign spy while he played the roll of IT specialist for her.
 
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Nithavela

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Here in America Congress people have the ability for insider trading on the stock market as a benefit to belonging to congress in addition to what your politicians involve themselves with. One was even married to a brother before divorcing him and marrying her Campaign organizer - after she paid him vast sums from her campaign fund. Another had a Chinese spy working as her driver for 20 years! Another had an affair with a foreign spy while he played the roll of IT specialist for her.
Just proves that having a high place on the "low corruption" chart doesn't mean you have low corruption. Just that you have a bit less than other countries.
 
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FenderTL5

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So was it worth the cost in blood and treasure?
It depends

The U.S. government gave the top five defense contractors $156.4 billion in contracts for fiscal year 2020.
51 lawmakers owned up to $5.8 million worth of defense contractor stocks as of last year.
Members of the military-industrial complex certainly profited from the war in Afghanistan.
 
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seeking.IAM

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There is a difference between a defense focused military and the U.S. playing international policeman trying to impose its way of life on different cultures that don't want it. I believe U.S. foreign policy is amiss because we do too much of the latter. It really hasn't worked out well for us.
 
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mindlight

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I liked this youtube on God working in Afghanistan.


I watched all of that.

THINGS I LIKED
  1. Robby Dawkins courage in sharing faith in Afghanistan
  2. The vision of Jesus standing over the country and claiming it for his own. It is His because the whole earth is his by rights so why not also so-called Satanic strongholds like Afghanistan!
  3. The idea that the Taliban may prove the greatest "evangelists" for Jesus that Afghanistan has ever known because so hated, oppressive and so devoutly Muslim. The same thing is going on in Iran.
  4. Some of his local insights and reports - like no women were allowed to the airport, Biden stopped paying the army in January, the Taliban won by offering them wages, that Christians are being martyred by Taliban, testimony to the fearlessness of the believers there, stories of healings and miracles
  5. Obama gave money to the Taliban (I did not know that)
NOT SURE ABOUT
Trump will have a second term!

FALSE
The election was stolen (That was a lie)

VARIOUS THINGS HE FAILED TO MENTION
  1. The Taliban get most of their money selling drugs, not from Democrat presidents
  2. Trump did nothing about the endemic corruption in the Afghan system. In fact, he fed it by his payment system.
 
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Say it aint so

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I watched all of that.

THINGS I LIKED
  1. Robby Dawkins courage in sharing faith in Afghanistan
  2. The vision of Jesus standing over the country and claiming it for his own. It is His because the whole earth is his by rights so why so-called Satanic strongholds like Afghanistan!
  3. The idea that the Taliban may prove the greatest "evangelists" for Jesus that Afghanistan has ever known because so hated, oppressive and so devoutly Muslim. The same thing is going on in Iran.
  4. Some of his local insights and reports - like no women were allowed to the airport, Biden stopped paying the army in January, the Taliban won by offering them wages, that Christians are being martyred by Taliban, testimony to the fearlessness of the believers there, stories of healings and miracles
  5. Obama gave money to the Taliban (I did not know that)
NOT SURE ABOUT
Trump will have a second term!

FALSE
The election was stolen (That was a lie)

VARIOUS THINGS HE FAILED TO MENTION
  1. The Taliban get most of their money selling drugs, not from Democrat presidents
  2. Trump did nothing about the endemic corruption in the Afghan system. In fact, he fed it by his payment system.
5. Obama gave money to the Taliban (I did not know that)

That's because it's false.
Maybe he's thinking of Bush because he paid the Taliban to slow the drug trade in Afghanistan.

Faith is a powerful thing. One can do good things with it, but it can also make one in some respects a bit delusional. This guy apparently has crossed that bridge.
 
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Lifelong_sinner

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No, it wasnt worth it. I suspect there are far more sinister reasons for going there other than to get bin laden. I also suspect there is a reason biden pulled us out so quickly and its not to our benefit. But at least this is better than sending out hurtful tweets i suppose.
 
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John Mullally

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I watched all of that.

THINGS I LIKED
  1. Robby Dawkins courage in sharing faith in Afghanistan
  2. The vision of Jesus standing over the country and claiming it for his own. It is His because the whole earth is his by rights so why so-called Satanic strongholds like Afghanistan!
  3. The idea that the Taliban may prove the greatest "evangelists" for Jesus that Afghanistan has ever known because so hated, oppressive and so devoutly Muslim. The same thing is going on in Iran.
  4. Some of his local insights and reports - like no women were allowed to the airport, Biden stopped paying the army in January, the Taliban won by offering them wages, that Christians are being martyred by Taliban, testimony to the fearlessness of the believers there, stories of healings and miracles
  5. Obama gave money to the Taliban (I did not know that)
NOT SURE ABOUT
Trump will have a second term!

FALSE
The election was stolen (That was a lie)

VARIOUS THINGS HE FAILED TO MENTION
  1. The Taliban get most of their money selling drugs, not from Democrat presidents
  2. Trump did nothing about the endemic corruption in the Afghan system. In fact, he fed it by his payment system.
I would add the obvious to this video - which is the importance of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in aiding in these conversions.
 
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mindlight

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5. Obama gave money to the Taliban (I did not know that)

That's because it's false.
Maybe he's thinking of Bush because he paid the Taliban to slow the drug trade in Afghanistan.

Faith is a powerful thing. One can do good things with it, but it can also make one in some respects a bit delusional. This guy apparently has crossed that bridge.

The claim that the election was stolen was also a lie. Another false claim in this video was that Biden was no longer paying the military and this was the cause of the defeat. This article from August 10th indicates a continued commitment to wages was ongoing...

The U.S. will continue to provide “close air support,” keep Afghanistan’s Air Force flying, pay Afghan military salaries and resupply Afghan forces with food and equipment, Biden said. Then he leaned forward and said in a stage-whisper: “But they’ve got to want to fight. They outnumber the Taliban.”

Frustration Builds Between Biden White House and Afghan Leaders over Taliban's Swift Advance
 
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RDKirk

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The claim that the election was stolen was also a lie. Another false claim in this video was that Biden was no longer paying the military and this was the cause of the defeat. This article from August 10th indicates a continued commitment to wages was ongoing...

The U.S. will continue to provide “close air support,” keep Afghanistan’s Air Force flying, pay Afghan military salaries and resupply Afghan forces with food and equipment, Biden said. Then he leaned forward and said in a stage-whisper: “But they’ve got to want to fight. They outnumber the Taliban.”

Frustration Builds Between Biden White House and Afghan Leaders over Taliban's Swift Advance

Evidence indicates the military salaries and supplies were not getting down to the soldiers in the field, and hadn't been for years.
 
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RDKirk

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1) Throughout the time the coalition was there opium production was promoted by the Taliban feeding Western markets. There is a chance now the Taliban may now end this drug supply.

They probably won't. But they will make sure it isn't consumed in Afghanistan.

3) Afghanistan is now Sunni again and a natural ally of Pakistan with repercussions for the balance of power in the Indian subcontinent.

Afghanistan has always been 90% Sunni. That hasn't changed. The Taliban are Pakistani, and since the Pakistanis have never been seriously anti-Taliban, it won't make that much difference.

4) As with Vietnam it has again been demonstrated that a determined people can overthrow a technically superior opponent by sheer willpower.

They weren't going anywhere. I think Nazis could have defeated them, but the US isn't Nazi. The Russians aren't even Nazis.

5) The willingness to die for a cause is more evident for those who subscribe to Islam than secularised liberal democrats. Is the credibility of the West undermined by its secularism and its commitment to immoral causes like LGBTQ? Does the West have the tools to deal with Islam e.g. compared to Russia or China?

Doesn't make any difference whether you're talking about Republicans or Democrats, America does not subscribe to Islamic doctrine. As far as tools to deal with Islam, both Russia and China are having their own difficulties...and far worse difficulties within their borders than the US. "Infidel" is "infidel."

6) Corruption undermines governance in this country and the Coalition failed to control it and indeed encouraged it. Why was the Occupation so blind to the corruption it actively encouraged?

Corruption--to the extent that it becomes dangerous to the functioning of the country--is a matter of individuals having some sense of civic duty. It's still a mystery how that is instilled into a population that doesn't have it.

7) At the moment it looks like the primary objective of eliminating Afghanistan as a safe haven for terrorists was achieved as the Taliban do not want any foreign fighters on their soil.

At this point, the US has the technological capability to deal with such matters that didn't exist twenty years ago.
 
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Say it aint so

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The claim that the election was stolen was also a lie. Another false claim in this video was that Biden was no longer paying the military and this was the cause of the defeat. This article from August 10th indicates a continued commitment to wages was ongoing...

The U.S. will continue to provide “close air support,” keep Afghanistan’s Air Force flying, pay Afghan military salaries and resupply Afghan forces with food and equipment, Biden said. Then he leaned forward and said in a stage-whisper: “But they’ve got to want to fight. They outnumber the Taliban.”

Frustration Builds Between Biden White House and Afghan Leaders over Taliban's Swift Advance
I do agree the logistics of the withdrawal was horrible. However I and no one else should not fool themselves, the take over of Afghanistan by the Taliban was inevitable.
 
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