Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

A_Thinker · Aug 20, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
Where did Moses get the law from?

Exodus 20 King James Version

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(ten commandments)

ect.

Matthew 4 King James Version

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

God, of course ...

But you argue as if God never changes course.

If that is true, how do you explain this summary of Biblical events ...

* God creates the heavens and the earth ... and man to dwell therein.

* God brings the Flood to extinguish human life on earth, with the exception of Noah and his family.

* God raises up a nation from Jacob, establishes them in a land given to them, ... and establishes a covenant between then and Himself.

* God brings judgement upon this people ... for their unfaithfulness, ... all while promising restoration.

* Having demonstrated that relationship with mankind cannot be maintained through mankind's performance, ... God opts to establish a relationship with mankind based upon forgiveness.

Now ... note that I am not proposing that God changes course ... because His prior paths were found to be in error, ... but rather that His plans often take a particularly winding path.

As an example of this, ... note that His plan of salvation by Grace ... was established before He ever began the Creation ...

Original Happy Camper · Aug 20, 2021

A_Thinker said:
God brings the Flood to extinguish human life on earth, with the exception of Noah and his family.

No change of course by GOD

Noah preached the Gospel for 120 years no takers
Man-kinds thoughts were continually evil
Wages of sin is death no repentance judgement was executed

A_Thinker said:
Now ... note that I am not proposing that God changes course ... because His prior paths were found to be in error, ... but rather that His plans often take a particularly winding path.

No it is mans path that is not in harmony with GODS because he gave us the power of choice

miamited · Aug 20, 2021

Hi OHC,

Original Happy Camper said:
Noah preached the Gospel for 120 years no takers

I would argue that Noah preached the gospel. Noah did tell people about God, but Noah could not have preached the gospel, because the terms of the gospel hadn't even been started. There was no forgiveness of sin in Noah's day. That's why Jesus preached to those in the grave when he was in the grave. Jesus is the gospel. His life and death is the good news to us of God's offer for the forgiveness of our sin.

God bless,
Ted

Original Happy Camper · Aug 20, 2021

miamited said:
Hi OHC,

I would argue that Noah preached the gospel. Noah did tell people about God, but Noah could not have preached the gospel, because the terms of the gospel hadn't even been started. There was no forgiveness of sin in Noah's day. That's why Jesus preached to those in the grave when he was in the grave. Jesus is the gospel. His life and death is the good news to us of God's offer for the forgiveness of our sin.

God bless,
Ted

I disagree as the offering made by Able was a symbol of Christ, the sanctuary tells the story of redemption.

Our first family had to know of this as the offering was for the forgiveness of sin

miamited · Aug 20, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
I disagree as the offering made by Able was a symbol of Christ, the sanctuary tells the story of redemption.

Our first family had to know of this as the offering was for the forgiveness of sin

Hi OHC,

Yes, and all the offerings of rams, and bulls and calves and goats and sheep made in Israel for 1500 years were also symbols of the coming sacrifice of Christ,....but still, in reading the law that gave all of the commandments of animal sacrifice there is no mention in the blessings of keeping the law...eternal life. As we read through the Levitical law and we come to the pages where God explains to Israel what the consequences would be for keeping or not keeping the law, all of those blessings are merely for a good life lived upon the earth. Nothing about any promise to them after they have died. All the curses were regarding hardships during their lives upon the earth...nothing about eternal condemnation or separation from Him.

So, I'm in agreement that Noah likely preached to the people around him of the great God who he had actually spoken to and attempted to call them to know Him, but the gospel of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus?...no. As far as I am aware, the Scriptures only mention that Noah had preached righteousness. That is a preaching that man should live right, not that there is a salvation coming.

So, I would respectfully ask for Scripture reference regarding this preaching of Noah of the gospel.

God bless,
Ted

Clare73 · Aug 20, 2021

Soyeong said:
You misconstrue what is only against your interpretation of these verses as being against the NT. To use an analogy, if I were to say "sjowsfhiowe", then that would be meaningless gibberish unless there was also instructions that defines what that word means, whereupon I could use that word to communicate intelligibly with people who also understood what it means. In the same way, in order for "sin" to be a meaningful concept, then needs to be instructions that define what it is. However, people can sin by not acting in accordance with those instructions prior to when those instructions were given to them, in which case their sin is charged against them, which is what Romans 5:13 is speaking about.

For example, in Romans 7:7-8, Paul said that he would not have known what sin without God's law, so someone who coveted while having no knowledge of God's law would be committing sin, but it would not be counted against them. Sin reigning from the time Adam is speak about other forms of sin that came into the world because of Adam's sin, not about people living sinlessly while still being held guilty because of Adam's sin.

Romans 7:7-8 has nothing to do with Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18.
You are missing the main point, which is reckoning/accounting/imputing to, between the time of Adam and Moses (Romans 5:18).

The fact that there was sin from Adam to Moses demonstrates that there was a law to sin against,

And you contradict Paul in that statement.

and there are many examples of this in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, which implies that Cain knew what sin is and must have been giving instructions in that regard. Likewise, in Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard Gods voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin against God to commit adultery.

There was no curse of death (Galatians 3:10) based on the Mosaic Law before the Mosaic law.
There can be no sin against the Mosaic law and its curse of death before that law is given,
and yet the curse of death reigned, not based on the Mosaic Law.
So what violation of law caused the death of all men?
The curse of death was based on Adam's disobedience to the law, "Thou shalt not eat of it,"
and its curse of death (Genesis 2:17).

In order for sin to be in the world before the law was given, then needs to be an action that people were doing that is sin

That's your rule, not Paul's.

and then the adding to law because of transgressions to give knowledge that it was sin (Galatians 3:19, Romans 3:20).

And that would be your rationale. . .in disagreeement with Paul regarding what that sin was
(Romans 5:18).

Clare73 · Aug 20, 2021

miamited said:
Hi OHC,
No, that's definitely one my sins that I will have to trust Jesus' blood for. Although, I'm retired now and I have quite a few Sabbath qualifying days throughout most weeks. As Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. God's Sabbath was a day of rest that we not get our sights confused on working for money over honoring Him. The Sabbath was made for man's benefit. A day of rest for the body and soul.

God bless,
Ted

Which is fulfilled in Christ, where we now rest in God's own (Hebrews 3:11, 18, 4:3, 5) full-time (Hebrews 4:3) Sabbath rest from the work to save ourselves and in Christ's finished work which saved us.

Horation · Aug 20, 2021

Guojing said:
So why do you believe we cannot choose to sin after the 2nd coming of Christ?

We sin in our flesh. Flesh and blood will not enter heaven 1 corinthians15.50

Horation · Aug 20, 2021

Guojing said:
My actual question, if you have been following is, "what does the Law written in our hearts really means (Hebrews 8:10)?"

What does it mean to you? If you believe the Law is written in all our hearts now, how come we can still choose to sin now, but in heaven, we cannot?

Think of the person you .love the most in this world. We can say the law of love is in your heart concerning the person. So in your heart you do not want to offend them. But though you want to show nothing but love to them, in your humanity you do not always follow what is in your heart do you. You may have been given a hard time by your boss at work one day. You come home and snap at your spouse , say something unkind to them. How will you then feel? You have gone against how you in your heart want to act. You will be struck with remorse and a conscience and you will.have no rest andno peace till you tell the person you are sorry for how you acted, they forgive you because they also love you, thenyou get your peace back. Isn't that the same as our relationship ship with God?

A_Thinker · Aug 20, 2021

A_Thinker said:
God brings the Flood to extinguish human life on earth, with the exception of Noah and his family.

Original Happy Camper said:
No change of course by GOD

So God populates the earth ... only to depopulate the earth generations later.

That's not a course change ?

Original Happy Camper said:
No it is mans path that is not in harmony with GODS because he gave us the power of choice.

Yes ... God has been pursuing us ...

Original Happy Camper · Aug 20, 2021

miamited said:
Hi OHC,

Yes, and all the offerings of rams, and bulls and calves and goats and sheep made in Israel for 1500 years were also symbols of the coming sacrifice of Christ,....but still, in reading the law that gave all of the commandments of animal sacrifice there is no mention in the blessings of keeping the law...eternal life. As we read through the Levitical law and we come to the pages where God explains to Israel what the consequences would be for keeping or not keeping the law, all of those blessings are merely for a good life lived upon the earth. Nothing about any promise to them after they have died. All the curses were regarding hardships during their lives upon the earth...nothing about eternal condemnation or separation from Him.

So, I'm in agreement that Noah likely preached to the people around him of the great God who he had actually spoken to and attempted to call them to know Him, but the gospel of salvation through the shed blood of Jesus?...no. As far as I am aware, the Scriptures only mention that Noah had preached righteousness. That is a preaching that man should live right, not that there is a salvation coming.

So, I would respectfully ask for Scripture reference regarding this preaching of Noah of the gospel.

God bless,
Ted

He preached righteousness as you stated

Therefore, salvation for those living before Christ must also have been by grace. In fact, grace existed even in the time of Noah, who "found grace in the eyes of the LORD” (Genesis 6:8).

The Bible teaches salvation through Christ from the time of the Fall to the time of the Second Coming of Christ. The blood of the lamb—the first sacrificial animal—saved Adam and Eve. When sin stripped the holy pair of their robes of righteousness and left them naked, God Himself covered their nakedness with animal skins (Genesis 3), symbolizing the righteousness that is available to all through Christ.

Grace in the Old Testament | Sacrificial Lamb

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

miamited · Aug 20, 2021

Hi OHC,

Original Happy Camper said:
Therefore, salvation for those living before Christ must also have been by grace.

Yes, God's salvation has always been by grace. That's why I keep repeating that there wasn't any salvation before Jesus paid the price for it. The Old Covenant law merely promised a good life on earth for those who were faithful to it. Jesus then went and preached to those in the grave while he was in the grave. That also explains why many old Jewish prophets and faithful were seen up walking around after his resurrection. Noah may also have been one of those walking about on that day. God was showing us all that it was this singular event of Jesus death, burial and resurrection which now made it possible for men to find their way back to God and His promise of eternal life.

The Scriptures tell us that Jesus led the saints in his train. He did that after he paid the price for God's salvation. In fact, the Scriptures are quite clear in a number of places that by observance of the law shall no man be saved. How could there then have been salvation when Moses gave the law unto Israel? If there were, then the law would have saved some people and the Scriptures would be a lie.

God bless,
Ted

Original Happy Camper · Aug 20, 2021

miamited said:
If there were, then the law would have saved some people and the Scriptures would be a lie.

Which law are you talking about?

Guojing · Aug 20, 2021

Horation said:
We sin in our flesh. Flesh and blood will not enter heaven 1 corinthians15.50

So we cannot sin in heaven, you do agree with that?

Guojing · Aug 20, 2021

A_Thinker said:
We are still growing in Love ...

1 John 3:1a See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!

So if you believe we are still growing now, why would you conclude that the Law is already written in our hearts?

A_Thinker · Aug 21, 2021

Guojing said:
So if you believe we are still growing now, why would you conclude that the Law is already written in our hearts?

As a growing christian, I believe that I would say that the Law of God "is being written" upon my heart. God has written, is writing, and will write upon my heart ... His law of Love.

A_Thinker · Aug 21, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
Which law are you talking about?

The law of Moses ... cannot save. At its best, it can only point to Christ ...

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Guojing · Aug 21, 2021

A_Thinker said:
As a growing christian, I believe that I would say that the Law of God "is being written" upon my heart. God has written, is writing, and will write upon my heart ... His law of Love.

Since you have the view that the New Covenant has not begun yet, I understand why you would have this belief, which is consistent.

A_Thinker · Aug 21, 2021

Guojing said:
Since you have the view that the New Covenant has not begun yet, I understand why you would have this belief, which is consistent.

You misunderstand me ... the New Covenant has begun, ... but has yet to reach its fulfillment ...

Guojing · Aug 21, 2021

miamited said:
Hi OHC,

I would argue that Noah preached the gospel. Noah did tell people about God, but Noah could not have preached the gospel, because the terms of the gospel hadn't even been started. There was no forgiveness of sin in Noah's day. That's why Jesus preached to those in the grave when he was in the grave. Jesus is the gospel. His life and death is the good news to us of God's offer for the forgiveness of our sin.

God bless,
Ted

Gospel means "good news". If Noah did preach good news, it was that the flood is coming, but they will be saved if they helped to build the ark so that they can get in.

Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

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