Good deeds vs Sinning

Root of Jesse said:

I see it differently. I see every morning when I wake up as an opportunity to do better, to be a better version of myself. But I also know I make mistakes, many are inadvertent, yet they are still mistakes, no? Our human nature is sinful, so nobody merits heaven. We also know that nothing impure can enter heaven. So we rely on God to purify us. Also, if we are truly sorry, we have nothing to worry about, especially if God sees our heart. But, if a child bats a ball through your window, is it enough to say you forgive him? Don't you still have to fix the window? And probably the parent will make the child work to pay for it. Even a repentant prisoner in jail can say 'sorry' but still has to do the time...

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I don't think anything you have said is contradicing what I said.

Sure we want to become better people. I think with God it's more about two choices, either we obey or we don't. It's not that much about becoming "better persons" even that is a good thing.

renniks said:

Philippians 3:9 ESV /
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

It appears to me that our righteousness comes from having faith, not from being sinless.

And what do you think of this verse:


Romans 4:5 ESV /
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

And this one:

Genesis 15:6 ESV /
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

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Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Paul was not referring to how we need to be faithful and obey the commands of Jesus after we are saved by God's grace. Much of Paul's writings were fighting against the denial of being initially saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. So these verses that you are referring to here are in reference to being saved initially by God's grace and how that is the basis or foundation of our salvation. That does not mean it is in conflict with the second aspect of salvation (Which is entering into the Sanctification Process). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). However, some people wrongfully think grace is a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

renniks said:

Philippians 3:9 ESV /
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

It appears to me that our righteousness comes from having faith, not from being sinless.

And what do you think of this verse:


Romans 4:5 ESV /
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

And this one:

Genesis 15:6 ESV /
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

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Christians need to focus on and teach the following two aspects of salvation.

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

renniks said:

Philippians 3:9 ESV /
And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

It appears to me that our righteousness comes from having faith, not from being sinless.

And what do you think of this verse:


Romans 4:5 ESV /
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

And this one:

Genesis 15:6 ESV /
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

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But we can counter that with 1 John 3:7 that says:

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1 John 3:7).

So is this a contradiction in the Bible? No. For in the verses you quoted: Paul is referring to Works ALONE Salvationism without God's grace and Paul is trying to get folks to focus on being initially saved by God's grace and or to make His grace the foundation of their faith (i.e. the first aspect of salvation). Paul is not referring to the second aspect of salvation (Sanctification) in these verses that follows after we are saved by God's grace.

Paul does refer to Sanctification in regards to salvation clearly in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, but most Christians nowadays simply want to justify a sin and still be saved type belief. So while we are saved by the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we also need to answer the call of the gospel. This call of the gospel is.... God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Paul says vain deceivers can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work (Titus 1:16). Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Most today do not fear God. Most today do not believe Philippians 2:12 that says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

renniks said:

Here's the problem: I've never met a sinless human. I've met some very godly humans, but none were sinless. And I sure am not the exception.

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Is that how Noah built his faith? By looking at the wicked men around him? Was that his standard? To walk by sight and not by faith? Only 8 people made it on the ark. Granted, I think more people will be saved than that when Christ returns, but I believe most will be justifying sin with the thinking they are saved. We see it all around us. So you fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). Fight against sin with everything you got with God's help and with His Word. Don't say to yourself that you must sin again. Read 2 Corinthians 7:1 several times a day and BELIEVE it.

Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM whoever does iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

This means a person can be in the Kingdom now but later cast out of His kingdom at the judgment on account of their justifying sin.

renniks said:

I see verses telling us who we are now. Very encouraging... but notice that we do need that encouragement. Why? Because we forget, we stumble, we fall.
Why do we need to be told to:
"walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

Because we are capable as believers of failing to walk by the Spirit.

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Believers are not going to go from zero to hero overnight. However, after a believer is saved by His grace, Sanctification will lead a believer to in time overcome grievous sin and the dark things of this world like it's sinful movies, music, books, games, ideologies, etc.

renniks said:

I know salvation is a gift. I also know that like everybody else I stumble in many ways.

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Salvation being a gift is referring to Initial Salvation by being saved by God's grace and it is not referring to the second aspect of salvation (Sanctification).

As for your quote of James 3:2. Well, this is a quote from the corrupted Modern Translations.

The trusted King James Bible says: “For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

There is a difference between offending and stumbling. I see James as referring to offending because that is the context of what he is talking about, and it is an action that is line with how God desires us to live holy after we are saved by His grace.

renniks said:

How many sins does one need to commit before he loses his salvation?

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Well, it only takes one grievous sin to abide in spiritual death unless we confess and forsake that sin.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

renniks said:

Did David lose his salvation?
Or only the joy of his salvation?

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Based on the whole counsel of God's Word, he lost his salvation. Otherwise why did he need to seek forgiveness with God over his sins? Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

renniks said:

Then no one gets to heaven.

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Not all sins are the same. In Matthew 5:22 we learn that Jesus teaches us about sins that do not lead to death and a sin that does lead to death.


The words in blue above are “sins not unto death” because they are the kind of sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, but the words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it involves punishment in the afterlife in fiery hell.

renniks said:

This presents a real life problem. Technically, you would be " unsaved" every time you sin, until you confess. That's at odds with nothing being able to separate us from the love of God.
Also I believe Christ is our priest, not any man.

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God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45). God so loved the world according to John 3:16, but does that mean everyone is saved? Also, which believer is God referring to in that His love cannot separate us? Is the disobedient servant or the faithful one?

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So are you saying that you are forgiven of sins even without confessing your sins? If so, that would be speaking against 1 John 1:9. So we have look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just those verses we prefer to see from our own slanted point of view.

renniks said:

Ok perhaps I misunderstood. The common protestant view would be that we are saved from all sin past, present and future upon initial salvation.
So confession our sins is to keep us in right relationship with God but we are already forgiven.

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Which is false because how can you be forgiven by confessing sin according to 1 John 1:9 if your future sin is forgiven you?

renniks said:

Then we are all doomed because we sin all the time.

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Jesus said to two people to “sin no more” (John 5:14) (John 8:11) (Note: I say this in context of overcoming grievous sin for this section of the forums because sinless perfection is not allowed to be promoted here).

You said:

Jesus drew the line at the mind. Do you really believe you can remember and confess every sin, every time you have an imperfect thought?

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I am sure you can pray to the Lord for sins that you may not have been aware of that you feel may be standing between you and God. So if you did have a bad day, you confess it to the Lord and you fight the good fight of faith in putting away those grievous sins that you know the Bible condemns with hellfire and or condemnation of one's soul. Why? Well, why take the chance in being wrong by justifying sin? That's what I don't get about the majority of those in Christianity today who justify sin. They are only willing to go so far with God. They want his grace, but they don't want to obey Him. But Titus 2:11-12 says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. But somehow you don't believe that?

You said:

How often do we even have perfect thoughts for one hour?

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Really? Are you being serious? Have you ever just read the Bible for a few hours?

You said:

Unless you are saying we are somehow saved and unsaved at the same time, I can not make sense of what you said.
What if you can't make it to the priest and you die? What if you forget a sin or just don't realize it is one?
To hell you go.
That's not salvation at all.

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Believers have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and walk by faith and not by sight. Right now many believers walk by sight (their life experiences) and not by faith in God's Word the Bible.

zoidar said:

I don't think we move in and out of salvation anyhow. If I'm saved every other week, lost the other, how can I know Jesus comes back when I'm in the "saved state"? Maybe you meant something else?

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Then there is no need for confession. For confessing our sins according to 1 John 1:9 means that we are forgiven of our sins by confessing them. So are we saved if we don't confess of our sins? If so, how does 1 John 1:9 work? Can a person not be forgiven of sin and still be saved? Generally the Bible ties forgiveness of sin in with salvation.

renniks said:

Oh I believe I owe God. But I can never repay what I owe so my only option is to ask for mercy.

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But think about it like this. If a man cheats on his wife (i.e. being unfaithful to her) and he just merely says he is sorry to her, does that really work in the long term if the man has no intention of ever stopping in his adultery? Sooner or later, the sin of adultery of this man will destroy their relationship. It's the same with God. If a person just pays empty lip service to God that he is sorry and has no real intention of ever stopping his sin.... Well.... I got news for you. That person is not really sorry. That would be like a serial killer who says he is sorry to the person he has tied up that he is about to kill. Is the serial killer really sorry? No, of course not. Only our actions along with being broken with a godly sorrow can reverse the course of the sinful destructive path we are on. But many delude themselves into thinking that they are saved no matter what they do (Which would be a violation of Jude 1:4 and many other verses).

renniks said:

Sure but does that cancel out my every wrong thought? Do you claim a perfect thought life? I don't believe even the most holy person doesn't have moments of pride, etc every hour.

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Confessing sin equates with being forgiven of that sin (See: 1 John 1:9). Those sins are forever forgiven if they are confessed with a godly sorrow and we intend to forsake and put away those sins for good (See also 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:1, and Proverbs 28:13).

1 John 1:9 also helps a believer to be cleansed of all unrighteousness, too. That's what it says. Meaning, confessing sin is one of the ways to overcome grievous sin. Please read the verse several times a day and BELIEVE it. Don't speak against 1 John 1:9 in what it says. Just believe it in what it plainly says.

renniks said:

If it isn't how can a person have any assuranceof salvation?

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1 John 2:3 is your assurance card for salvation. But most today do not like 1 John 2:3 and so they throw that verse out.