When it comes to the Taliban, some politicians are delusional

The Barbarian said:

We meant well; Bush meant well. But it didn't matter. Getting out cut the damage.

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No it didn't. That's a nice fantasy though. Now we will have to bomb the Taliban again at some point in the near future. Now more American lives will likely be wasted because we didn't maintain a presence there.

I live in a heavily Afghan-populated area of my current city. You see in this neighborhood restaurants serving Afghan food, as well as grocery stores, tax preparation services, and all kinds of other things founded and patronized by the Afghan-American community. I worry a lot for my neighbors and their families. This may have happened half a world away, but no doubt it is felt here in their new homeland, too. I have a hard time imagining that the average Afghan actually wanted this, or at least not any more than the average American or other westerner wanted to be in Afghanistan in the first place. It's a very difficult situation for everyone, and Lord knows that the Afghan people deserve sustained peace so that they can build their country and its civic institutions up together. Lord have mercy. For whatever my prayers may do, I am praying for the Afghans now, and I hope I'm not the only one. On a personal level, while we obviously come from very different cultures, every single Afghan I've met has been very kind. I wish them all success.

As for the political machinations behind it all, and what it says about this party or that one, or what it's supposed to mean for non-Afghans like you and I, I don't think I can put it any better than folk singer Malang Kohestani puts it in this clip from the great 2006 documentary Kabul Transit (check it out if you are interested in Afghanistan; it's all this kind of everyday, slice-of-life footage, which is surely priceless), wherein he sings about his country and the place it occupies for Afghan and foreigner alike:


Again, Lord have mercy.

We meant well; Bush meant well. But it didn't matter. Getting out cut the damage.

No it didn't.

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Yes, it did. These guys originally had no problems with us. Indeed, the Taliban is what it is today, because President Reagan funneled them all kinds of aid to overthrow the Russians who occupied Afghanistan. The Taliban had concluded that "Al-Qaeda stole the revolution from us" because he fled there and so we went in to get him.

They have declared war on ISIS, which does target Americans. As far back as 2018:

An Afghan official says an Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) suicide bomber has killed 20 people in northern Afghanistan, including a Taliban commander. Abdul Qayuom Baqizoi, provincial chief police of northern Sar-i-Pul province, said the attack Tuesday took place as village elders met with Taliban officials in the area.
20 killed as ISIS bomber reportedly targets Taliban officials in Afghanistan

In northern Afghanistan, Taliban and the ISIS faction in the country have been waging bitter battles in recent days. As many as 100 insurgents from both the Taliban and ISIS have perished in recent battles, said Baqizoi.

Taliban ultimately won. You're imagining all sorts of things that reduce the issue to a simple black/white situation. Which it is not.

That's a nice fantasy though.

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See above. It's not as simple as your fantasy has it. The real concern for peace in the region is going to be Afghanistan's hostility to Shiite Iran, the leaders of which once described the Taliban as "deranged." Your fantasy might be comforting, but it's completely unrealistic.

renniks said:

Now we will have to bomb the Taliban again at some point in the near future.

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For what purpose? The lesson they took from our intervention, was "we messed up by being friendly with America's enemies."

As early as 2009:
And yet, Omar's Taliban, at least, may not want to repeat recent history, when his group's loyalty to al-Qaeda spoiled the Taliban's opportunity to defeat rival Afghan factions and rule the entire country.

"If you debrief senior Taliban guys, they'll tell you that al-Qaeda stole the victory, because they were going to win prior to the World Trade Center attacks," the U.S. military intelligence official said. "The more they connect themselves to al-Qaeda, the less the population's going to welcome them back."
Afghan Taliban surpasses weakened al-Qaida

Now more American lives will likely be wasted because we didn't maintain a presence there.

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We were wasting American lives because we occupied Afghanistan. This was one of the things Trump actually did right, when he negotiated a withdrawal agreement from the country.

renniks said:

Whoever was advising the figurehead in the White house should be fired. Or jailed.

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Actually, Trump did it on his own, against advice of his advisors. And for once, he was actually right. Trump was fired for other failures. But for this, he deserves credit, not jail time.

I don't mind the withdraw, but the way it was executed was awful. My nephew was wounded there, and the expectations from Politian's compared to the reality on the ground showed a huge chasm. I'm sure I'm not the only one that had family there, and heard about the government's expectations and then people on ground knowing it was never going to happen.

They have a bigger force there now that has been there for a while, and if anyone would have listened to those on the ground about the withdraw? We might not be seeing what is happening there now. Sadly, this isn't the first time in our history.

At this point I doubt they will get out all the people that need to be removed for their own safety, and cooperation with the USA. Government NOT listening to those on the ground, and that includes the President's (all of them) are to blame for those deaths that will come due to their 'planned' withdraw.

anna ~ grace said:

With all due respect to him, I don’t think this is about contemporary politics. I don’t blame Biden for this. I blame Bush. He got us involved in Afghanistan and Iraq, and both wars have been catastrophic failures. This is sad, and horrible, and Trump seemed to think that both wars were terrible ideas, too, and wanted us out.

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True, but keep in mind that both Biden and Hillary Clinton voted for both wars.

The Barbarian said:

Ironically, one thing that Trump did right was to agree to leave Afghanistan. Not a good idea to shut the Afghan government out of the talks, but getting out is better than continuing to bleed American lives and resources as well as kill countless Afghans.

We were supposed to leave in May, but Biden delayed it to more effectively withdraw American forces. In the long run, it made no difference.

We meant well; Bush meant well. But it didn't matter. Getting out cut the damage.

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It was known that the President of Afghanistan was corrupt and why he was left out of
the talks.

As far as getting us into Afghanistan, Bush/Cheney did so in order to get us into Iraq.

I'm still skeptical about what actually went on behind the scenes on 9/11.

The "Dancing Israeli's," will always have me suspicious that the IDF knew and help
set up the attack.

renniks said:

No it didn't. That's a nice fantasy though. Now we will have to bomb the Taliban again at some point in the near future. Now more American lives will likely be wasted because we didn't maintain a presence there.

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Why would you expect Americans to lose their lives there when the Afghan soldiers dropped their weapons and ran. Heck, some even joined the Taliban as they arrived.

JimR-OCDS said:

It was known that the President of Afghanistan was corrupt and why he was left out of
the talks.

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Yes, although that wasn't the smartest thing to do. But even with a number of serious missteps, give Trump the credit for getting us out of that mess. Biden just did what he could to make it less horrible. And yes, he took an extra 2 1/2 months to do that. But look at what a mess it was, even with those additional preparations. What do you think would have happened if he had pulled out in May, as was the original plan?

Amid the widespread criticism that’s been thrown at the Biden administration over the collapse of Afghanistan following the withdrawal of American troops, Fox News anchor Chris Wallace kept it fair and balanced on Sunday morning when he confronted former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo over his own record of legitimizing and emboldening the Taliban.

With the Taliban essentially taking over the entire country in a matter of a few short weeks and the Afghan president fleeing the country after the group surrounded the capital of Kabul, Pompeo appeared on Fox News Sunday to blast President Joe Biden for supposedly folding to the Taliban.
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But the veteran Fox anchor wasn’t done pressing Pompeo on his own record with the Taliban, bringing up the fact that he was the first secretary of state to ever meet with the group and actually heaped praise on them at one point.

Airing a clip of Pompeo last year saying the Taliban would “work alongside us to destroy” Al Qaeda, Wallace pointedly asked the former secretary: “Do you regret giving the Taliban that legitimacy? Do you regret pressing the Afghan government to release 5,000 prisoners, which they did, some of whom are now back on the battlefield fighting with the Taliban?”

Pompeo, for his part, responded by saying “you make peace with your enemies” while also insisting that the Trump administration “never trusted the Taliban.”
Chris Wallace Confronts Pompeo: Do You Regret Giving Taliban ‘Legitimacy’?

It's sad that Pompeo can't honestly explain why he did what he did. But if he had been honest about those reasons, it would have invalidated his complaints that Biden did what Trump negotiated an agreement to do.

JimR-OCDS said:

As far as getting us into Afghanistan, Bush/Cheney did so in order to get us into Iraq.

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I remember that. I think it was Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld who justified it by saying that all the good bombing targets were in Iraq.

JimR-OCDS said:

Why would you expect Americans to lose their lives there when the Afghan soldiers dropped their weapons and ran. Heck, some even joined the Taliban as they arrived.

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I haven't read anything about them joining the Taliban, but I wouldn't doubt they would be forced too.

I was reading that the soldiers didn't have faith in Kubul would back them during the fight, and the Taliban told them either give up or we will kill you and your family. That's pretty big incentives to lay down your arms. I wouldn't doubt the Taliban will kill them anyway.

Sounds like the Soldiers were dependent on the USA backing, and once removed? It fell.

The Barbarian said:

For what purpose?

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Because" if you give a mouse a cookie he's going to want a glass of milk to go along with it."

They are going to stir up trouble as terrorists always do and we will have to take them on again.

renniks said:

Because" if you give a mouse a cookie he's going to want a glass of milk to go along with it."

They are going to stir up trouble as terrorists always do and we will have to take them on again.

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Can I say I hope your wrong, but I see it happening like that too. I'll just leave it at I hope your wrong.

The Barbarian said:

I remember that. I think it was Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld who justified it by saying that all the good bombing targets were in Iraq.

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Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and one other, were members of the Carlisle Group.
They trashed Bush 41 for not going into Iraq to take down Saddam. When Clinton
became president, they wrote a letter calling for him to invade Iraq and take down
Saddam.

Jump forward to Bush/Cheney. Cheney was on Meet the Press when Tim Russert was still alive, three weeks before 9/11. On the program, Russert asked Cheney about that letter and then asked if he thought the American people would behind an invasion of Iraq. Cheney answered, "it would take a Pearl Harbor type event for the American people to support invading Iraq. Three weeks later, 9/11 happens.

Now I'm generally not into conspiracies, and I may have some details off, however, when I read about the "Dancing Israeli's," who were Mossad Agents from Israel who had set up cameras on the top of a white fan across from the East River and started
to video the two WTC Towers, hours before the first plane hit, and when it did, they started cheering, clapping their hands and jumping up and down on the roof of the van. Then the second plane hit and again, cheers and celebration. A woman who lived there saw the entire thing outside of a window to her house. She then called the police and they intercepted the van as it was heading to the airport. The cop said they were Israeli agents. However, the Feds got involved and that was the last anyone heard about it and supposedly they left the US and were flown back to Israel.

Of course the next step was for the US to invade Afghanistan to get Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, which didn't happen as they were already in Pakistan. Next was the invasion of Iraq, for the lie that he had WMDs.

Yeah, I'm skeptical about the entire event on 9/11 and how much Cheney and the Israeli's knew about it.

This is why it was a bad idea for Trump to negotiate with the Taliban, while excluding the Afghan government...

Since the beginning of 2020, militants of the radical Taliban movement have secretly negotiated with Afghan security forces for their surrender or desertion for a fee, Report informs referring to The Washington Post.

The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were, in fact, offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a US official.

Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers.

“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan special forces officer said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the US commitment to a complete withdrawal as an “assurance” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on the condition of anonymity because he, like others in this report, was not authorized to disclose information to the press.
WP: Taliban made secret deals with Afghan military to surrender weapons

Now we know why the government collapsed so fast. They realized Trump was tossing them under the bus, so they cut their own deals with the Taliban. He botched that, but his decision to withdraw U.S. forces from Afghanistan was still a good one.

But this is why we see Afghans hanging onto departing U.S. airplanes, and why we see helicopters departing from the roof of the U.S. embassy in Kabul.

The Barbarian said:

This is why it was a bad idea for Trump to negotiate with the Taliban, while excluding the Afghan government...

Since the beginning of 2020, militants of the radical Taliban movement have secretly negotiated with Afghan security forces for their surrender or desertion for a fee, Report informs referring to The Washington Post.

The deals, initially offered early last year, were often described by Afghan officials as cease-fires, but Taliban leaders were, in fact, offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons, according to an Afghan officer and a US official.

Over the next year and a half, the meetings advanced to the district level and then rapidly on to provincial capitals, culminating in a breathtaking series of negotiated surrenders by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police, special operations troops and other soldiers.

“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan special forces officer said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the US commitment to a complete withdrawal as an “assurance” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on the condition of anonymity because he, like others in this report, was not authorized to disclose information to the press.
WP: Taliban made secret deals with Afghan military to surrender weapons

Now we know why the government collapsed so fast. They realized Trump was tossing them under the bus, so they cut their own deals with the Taliban. He botched that, but his decision to withdraw U.S. forces from Afghanistan was still a good one.

But this is why we see Afghans hanging onto departing U.S. airplanes, and why we see helicopters departing from the roof of the U.S. embassy in Kabul.

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From what I remember, Trump's goal was to just pull the troops out and to negotiate with the Taliban, that they would not attack US forces as they were leaving.

He could've cared less what happened after we left. In fact I believe if Trump were
still president, he wouldn't be helping translators and other Afghani civilians who helped the US forces, to get out. He would've left them as fodder.

JimR-OCDS said:

From what I remember, Trump's goal was to just pull the troops out and to negotiate with the Taliban, that they would not attack US forces as they were leaving.

He could've cared less what happened after we left. In fact I believe if Trump were
still president, he wouldn't be helping translators and other Afghani civilians who helped the US forces, to get out. He would've left them as fodder.

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Maybe so. He betrayed our Kurdish allies in Iraq to their enemies. Loyalty for him is strictly one-way. It's just that this revelation explains why things collapsed so quickly.

The Barbarian said:

Maybe so. He betrayed our Kurdish allies in Iraq to their enemies. Loyalty for him is strictly one-way. It's just that this revelation explains why things collapsed so quickly.

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Not really. There were two groups of Kurdish Fighters. One group the Turkish government hated, the other was the group in Iraq who were fighting against ISIS and had gone into parts of Syria. The Kurds along the Turkish border have been fighting with the Turks for decades.

The group fighting with the Turks, Trump removed our troops from them as they were
going to be in harms way when Turkish air strikes would be made there. The Turkish president warned Trump that they would do a strike against these Kurds whether Americans were imbedded with them or not. Remember, Turkey is a member of NATO, which every American should be appalled over.

What American parents would've wanted to see their son or daughter killed by Turks in
order to defend the Kurds there ?

What it all boils down to is, our government had no clue about the ethnic and religious groups who have been fighting with each other for centuries. The British learned the hard way before they got the heck out of there.

Maybe so. He betrayed our Kurdish allies in Iraq to their enemies. Loyalty for him is strictly one-way. It's just that this revelation explains why things collapsed so quickly.

JimR-OCDS said:

Not really. There were two groups of Kurdish Fighters. One group the Turkish government hated, the other was the group in Iraq who were fighting against ISIS and had gone into parts of Syria. The Kurds along the Turkish border have been fighting with the Turks for decades.

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No, that's not the case.

As expected, President Trump’s decision to pull U.S. troops away from the Syria-Turkey border, effectively endorsing a Turkish assault on the U.S.-allied Kurds occupying northern Syria, has been a disaster. Trump made the call last Sunday after a phone call with Turkish President Recep Erdoğan, and without consulting the Pentagon or Congress. Less than a week later, Trump ordered the removal all U.S. troops from the region, further endangering the Kurdish people, strengthening ISIS, and ceding influence to some of America’s chief adversaries. In return, the U.S. has, to date, received nothing.
...
As is the case with many of Trump’s largely inexplicable world-changing decisions, pulling U.S. troops out of northern Syria was good news for Putin. Russia has long supported Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, who is opposed by the Kurds, in the Syrian Civil War. Now that the Kurds have been abandoned by the U.S., however, they’ve been forced to strike a military alliance with Russia and Assad in order to fend off the Turkish. This gives Russia even more influence in the region.
Here's What Has Happened in Syria in the Week Since Trump Abandoned the Kurds

I had a brief discussion with a chap in the church carpark one day. I think he was a Vietnam Vet.

He remarked about Afghanistan "it's a civil war. You can't win".