The Unexpected Rapture (Either Pre-Trib, or takes place in the 1st 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation)

Davy · Aug 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Are you implying all those who don’t hold to a post Trib Rapture want to murder Jesus?

If so, that’s pretty far out there in left field.

No, of course not.

I am implying how some folks would rather listen to those like the 'crept in unawares', i.e., the "synagogue of Satan", that wanted to murder Lord Jesus. Can you not see how those Jews influenced the people to agree with them?

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

Davy said:
No, of course not.

I am implying how some folks would rather listen to those like the 'crept in unawares', i.e., the "synagogue of Satan", that wanted to murder Lord Jesus. Can you not see how those Jews influenced the people to agree with them?

I have never found any logical explanation for Post Trib. How do you interpret Jesus saying He will come in a time we think not? How do you interpret God’s people not appointed unto wrath? How do you interpret those who say that the Lord delays His coming and they start to beat their fellow servants. I have seen the verbal abuse first hand by those who hold to Post Trib. Coincidence? Maybe. Also, the sixth seal is clearly marked by a blood moon, and dark skies and is tied to the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is described as a period of time and not as a specific literal 24 hour day.

Davy · Aug 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I have never found any logical explanation for Post Trib. How do you interpret Jesus saying He will come in a time we think not?

I have to disagree; I see the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture being exact and certain that His coming to gather His Church is like He said, After... the tribulation of those days. Many don't realize it, but those Scriptures are also what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

Not in every place did Jesus say none will know the day of His coming. The idea is that no man knows the 'day', nor the specific 'hour' of His coming. It doesn't mean we aren't to know the 'season':

Rev 3:2-4
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
KJV

Afterall, the "times and the seasons" is exactly what Apostle Paul was talking about in the 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter, right after he had spoken of our gathering to Christ in the previous Chapter. Paul even gave one of the 'signs' to be watching for in 1 Thess.5. Also, in Revelation 16:15 Jesus is warning His Church on earth still on the 6th Vial, that He comes "as a thief", and don't be deceived.

How do you interpret God’s people not appointed unto wrath?

I know you mean the "wrath" Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Did you bother to read the previous 8 verses there which gives the timing of that wrath? Paul pointing to a "sudden destruction" upon the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety". That sudden destruction is tied to the final event of this world called the "day of the Lord" (and I know some of your pre-trib cronnies lie about that "day of the Lord", and try to push it backwards to the time of the tribulation. No... that "day of the Lord" ends... the tribulation. And its events in 2 Peter 3:10 shows that also.)

So really, the pre-trib rapture doctrine cannot exist without denying Holy Writ and trying to modify Scripture with man's philosophy.

How do you interpret those who say that the Lord delays His coming and they start to beat their fellow servants. I have seen the verbal abuse first hand by those who hold to Post Trib. Coincidence? Maybe.

That's not what Lord Jesus was pointing to. He was pointing to those who do NOT... 'watch'. If you only believe on Jesus and do nothing else, what kind of life are you most likely to fall into? You won't be doing what He said when He comes, be giving them meat in due season. Do you know what that's a allegory to? It's about staying in Christ, waiting for His coming, and while waiting giving the 'meat' of His Word in due season, meaning according to the SIGNS He gave leading up to His return.

Those in Christ Jesus are supposed to 'know'... those SIGNS He gave His Church to be 'watching.' The servant who thinks He has delayed His coming will NOT... be watching those SIGNS! Instead those will be partying, having a good time, and not aware at all of the "times and the seasons", not watching.

So when someone like me asks one on the pre-trib rapture theory just what... it is we are to 'watch' per our Lord Jesus, they draw a big blank, and say what the pre-trib doctors program them to say, like "just be ready!" They do not know... those SIGNS Jesus gave for us to be watching. As a matter of fact, many of the pre-trib rapture doctors tell them they have no need... to watch, but just be ready to fly away!

Mark 13:35-37
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
KJV

Also, the sixth seal is clearly marked by a blood moon, and dark skies and is tied to the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is described as a period of time and not as a specific literal 24 hour day.

The pre-trib doctors 'try'... to change the meaning of that "day of the Lord", but it won't work. There's so much Old Testament and enough New Testament Scripture about to KNOW for sure... that that "day of the Lord" comes AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, meaning SUDDENLY.

So your "period of time", which you really are hinting at the last 3.5 years of this world (I know, I've hear pre-tribbers push that lie), is really a JOKE when Bible Scripture is actually heeded.

All the following Scriptures are about that "day of the Lord" event, the LAST event of this world that happens on the 'day' of Christ's return...

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV

1.Paul showed the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived happens on that 'day'.
2. Peter showed the time of God's consuming fire that burns mans works off this earth happens on that 'day'.
3. Lord Jesus showed that is when His return is, and He comes "as a thief", pointing to that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night"!

It's so easy to tell the pre-trib rapture doctors are not staying with God's Holy Writ. Well, Ezekiel 13 is God's Witness to what He is going to do to those.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

BABerean2 said:
There is no seven year tribulation period in the Bible. It is often created by adding together two of the references to the forty-two month period in the Book of Revelation and assuming the book is in chronological order, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant Context. The following reveals the truth.

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Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation??? (book not in chronological order)

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.

Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.

Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?

The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

Chapter 20?

Does He come with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1?

(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked?

Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels were previously bound in some manner.

Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.

The principle of "Recapitulation" means there are multiple visions of His return.

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Is the New Covenant found in Daniel chapter 9?

Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant. Or, is the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28? The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores. What was the earlier understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the 1599 Geneva Bible?

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Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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During recent years many New Covenant scholars have examined Daniel chapter 9 from a New Covenant perspective. Did Christ fulfill the summary found in Daniel 9:24? Is it about the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (These two verses are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

The death of the Messiah is found in Daniel 9:26, and there are only two possible singular antecedents for the word “he” in the next verse. Those antecedents are either Christ or Titus, who was the prince of the people that destroyed the temple during 70 AD.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Is the “he” in Daniel 9:27 the “Messiah”, or “the prince” of the people that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in verse 26? If we used “the people of the prince” it would not be a singular “he”.

Does the author of the Book of Hebrews connect the New Covenant with the Messiah’s death found in Daniel 9:26, in the verse below?

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (NKJV)

Verse 26 also says the Messiah would be cut off “after” the 69 weeks. If I agree to paint your house “after” 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week, or after. Is there a “gap” of almost 2,000 years between the 69th week and the 70th week, or was it fulfilled during the first century when the Gospel was preached “first” to the Jews?

We know there is a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as the Apostle Paul said in the verse below.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Can we find a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken “first” to Daniel’s people during the first century? If we can, we have good evidence that the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled.

Did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel only to Israel in the passage below?

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Is the time period when the Gospel was preached “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews in the passage above, confirmed in the passage below?

Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

In the passage above Luke confirms the fact that the Gospel of Christ was preached throughout the land of Israel after the baptism which John preached. Here again, we have a text which reveals a time period when the Gospel was taken “first” to the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 1:16.

Bible scholars have looked at the number of Passover celebrations in the Gospels and have estimated Christ’s earthly ministry to have lasted about three and one half years. Was the Gospel taken “first” (Rom. 1:16) to the Jews for a period of about three and one half years during the period of time revealed in the Gospels?

In Galatians 1:14-18 Paul reveals he did not go up to see Peter until about 3 years after his conversion. During that time the Gospel continued to be taken almost exclusively to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson for confirmation of the above.

.

Christ is coming in the clouds to gather His Elect and the people of the world freak out in seeing Him. But nothing is said near the sixth seal or in the Olivet discourse of His coming down to the Earth on a white horse with his saints following. That’s Revelation 19. In the Olivet discourse: Jesus is gathering His elect by angels. In Revelation 19: The saints are are following Jesus and they are not being gathered by angels.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

Davy said:
I have to disagree; I see the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture being exact and certain that His coming to gather His Church is like He said, After... the tribulation of those days. Many don't realize it, but those Scriptures are also what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

Not in every place did Jesus say none will know the day of His coming. The idea is that no man knows the 'day', nor the specific 'hour' of His coming. It doesn't mean we aren't to know the 'season':

Rev 3:2-4
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
KJV

Afterall, the "times and the seasons" is exactly what Apostle Paul was talking about in the 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter, right after he had spoken of our gathering to Christ in the previous Chapter. Paul even gave one of the 'signs' to be watching for in 1 Thess.5. Also, in Revelation 16:15 Jesus is warning His Church on earth still on the 6th Vial, that He comes "as a thief", and don't be deceived.

I know you mean the "wrath" Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Did you bother to read the previous 8 verses there which gives the timing of that wrath? Paul pointing to a "sudden destruction" upon the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety". That sudden destruction is tied to the final event of this world called the "day of the Lord" (and I know some of your pre-trib cronnies lie about that "day of the Lord", and try to push it backwards to the time of the tribulation. No... that "day of the Lord" ends... the tribulation. And its events in 2 Peter 3:10 shows that also.)

So really, the pre-trib rapture doctrine cannot exist without denying Holy Writ and trying to modify Scripture with man's philosophy.

That's not what Lord Jesus was pointing to. He was pointing to those who do NOT... 'watch'. If you only believe on Jesus and do nothing else, what kind of life are you most likely to fall into? You won't be doing what He said when He comes, be giving them meat in due season. Do you know what that's a allegory to? It's about staying in Christ, waiting for His coming, and while waiting giving the 'meat' of His Word in due season, meaning according to the SIGNS He gave leading up to His return.

Those in Christ Jesus are supposed to 'know'... those SIGNS He gave His Church to be 'watching.' The servant who thinks He has delayed His coming will NOT... be watching those SIGNS! Instead those will be partying, having a good time, and not aware at all of the "times and the seasons", not watching.

So when someone like me asks one on the pre-trib rapture theory just what... it is we are to 'watch' per our Lord Jesus, they draw a big blank, and say what the pre-trib doctors program them to say, like "just be ready!" They do not know... those SIGNS Jesus gave for us to be watching. As a matter of fact, many of the pre-trib rapture doctors tell them they have no need... to watch, but just be ready to fly away!

Mark 13:35-37
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
KJV

The pre-trib doctors 'try'... to change the meaning of that "day of the Lord", but it won't work. There's so much Old Testament and enough New Testament Scripture about to KNOW for sure... that that "day of the Lord" comes AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, meaning SUDDENLY.

So your "period of time", which you really are hinting at the last 3.5 years of this world (I know, I've hear pre-tribbers push that lie), is really a JOKE when Bible Scripture is actually heeded.

All the following Scriptures are about that "day of the Lord" event, the LAST event of this world that happens on the 'day' of Christ's return...

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV

1.Paul showed the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived happens on that 'day'.
2. Peter showed the time of God's consuming fire that burns mans works off this earth happens on that 'day'.
3. Lord Jesus showed that is when His return is, and He comes "as a thief", pointing to that "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night"!

It's so easy to tell the pre-trib rapture doctors are not staying with God's Holy Writ. Well, Ezekiel 13 is God's Witness to what He is going to do to those.

Jesus says: “But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;” (Matthew 24:48).

Jesus says that, “My Lord delayeth his coming.” That is what it says. Yes, we do have to be ready, too. Jesus says that at another point (Matthew 24:44). We have to watch (Matthew 24:42), and be ready (Matthew 24:44). But it also says DELAYETH, too (Matthew 24:48). But there is no code word in the Bible for the phrase: “My Lord DELAYETH His coming” = “to be ready.” Jesus says that at another point and it does not mean DELAYETH his coming. That would be changing what the Word plainly says.

Also, you need to give me an End Times pictorial timeline or a written chronology that aligns with your belief. My idea of events of how the End Times happen is not like yours. So I have no frame of reference to how to address your post because it is not like the one I know.

BABerean2 · Aug 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Christ is coming in the clouds to gather His Elect and the people of the world freak out in seeing Him. But nothing is said near the sixth seal or in the Olivet discourse of His coming down to the Earth on a white horse with his saints following. That’s Revelation 19. In the Olivet discourse: Jesus is gathering His elect by angels. In Revelation 19: The saints are are following Jesus and they are not being gathered by angels.

No horse is mentioned in the vision below.

How powerful is the most powerful earthquake in history that moves all the islands and destroys the mountains?

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

.

Davy · Aug 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus says: “But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;” (Matthew 24:48).

Jesus says that, “My Lord delayeth his coming.” That is what it says. Yes, we do have to be ready, too. Jesus says that at another point (Matthew 24:44). We have to watch (Matthew 24:42), and be ready (Matthew 24:44). But it also says DELAYETH, too (Matthew 24:48). But there is no code word in the Bible for the phrase: “My Lord DELAYETH His coming” = “to be ready.” Jesus says that at another point and it does not mean DELAYETH his coming. That would be changing what the Word plainly says.

Well, you can default to that 'be ready' programmed doctrine of the pre-trib rapture school, but that's not how to 'watch' per our Lord Jesus' command.

The idea that Christ used about the 'delay' idea is manufactured in the minds of the slothful who are not watching and not working per His command. Lord Jesus is not delaying anything! His coming is set for a certain specific time that NO MAN can change (yeah, I've heard that ignorant idea too, that if the Church will do certain things, it will speed up Christ's return. Baloney; that's just more evidence of the crept in unawares hiding in Christ's Church).

Also, you need to give me an End Times pictorial timeline or a written chronology that aligns with your belief. My idea of events of how the End Times happen is not like yours. So I have no frame of reference to how to address your post because it is not like the one I know.

Are you serious? After all those Scriptures I showed you in my last post, you can't read?

I'll not draw you a map. You have God's Holy Writ in your possession, listen to HIM, and not those pre-trib rapture doctors who mislead you, as I SHOWED.

Davy · Aug 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Christ is coming in the clouds to gather His Elect and the people of the world freak out in seeing Him. But nothing is said near the sixth seal or in the Olivet discourse of His coming down to the Earth on a white horse with his saints following. That’s Revelation 19. In the Olivet discourse: Jesus is gathering His elect by angels. In Revelation 19: The saints are are following Jesus and they are not being gathered by angels.

Many descriptions in different Scriptures about that same event. What your doing is false deduction.

Example: If I went to a county fair and said, "I see nothing but red cars today".

Could I properly deduce that 'only'... red cars exist?

No, of course not.

Likewise, just because you don't see the 'same' wording in one Scripture, does not mean it's about a totally separate event. Just like the phrase "day of the Lord" is in several Scriptures, both OT and NT, and they describe various events to happen on that day. But they all are still about that "day of the Lord."

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

Davy said:
Many descriptions in different Scriptures about that same event. What your doing is false deduction.

Example: If I went to a county fair and said, "I see nothing but red cars today".

Could I properly deduce that 'only'... red cars exist?

No, of course not.

Likewise, just because you don't see the 'same' wording in one Scripture, does not mean it's about a totally separate event. Just like the phrase "day of the Lord" is in several Scriptures, both OT and NT, and they describe various events to happen on that day. But they all are still about that "day of the Lord."

It just seems odd that on the same day He would be coming in the clouds to gather His elect by angels and then go back up and then come back down on a white horse to have his saints follow Him down on the same day. Why do the saints even need to even go up if that is the case? Why not just change them to fight while they are on the ground? Plus, the timing of the Post Trib Rapture is all wrong from my understanding of the placement of the Middle of Daniel's 70th Week followed by the sixth seal. The Middle of Daniel's 70th week has lots more time and stuff to happen within it. The days that shall be shortened are not the whole latter half of the Tribulation but it is the period of time of when the Antichrist kills lots of people with the breaking of the 4th seal when he enforces the mark.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

BABerean2 said:
No horse is mentioned in the vision below.

How powerful is the most powerful earthquake in history that moves all the islands and destroys the mountains?

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

.

Revelation 16:5 is Jesus 2nd Coming at the six bowl (vial) judgment (Which is captured in more detail in Revelation 19:11-21).
Revelation 16:16 is a battle here upon this Earth involving Christ and the nations of this world. Christ will of course win!
Revelation 16:17-18 is a fulfillment or completion of all the stones of the Jewish temple being thrown down as mentioned in the Olivet discourse.
Revelation 16:20 is the beginning of the bringing in of the end of this world before it is purified by fire (as mentioned by Peter - 2 Peter 3:10).

setst777 · Aug 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Revelation 16:5 is Jesus 2nd Coming at the six bowl (vial) judgment (Which is captured in more detail in Revelation 19:11-21).
Revelation 16:16 is a battle here upon this Earth involving Christ and the nations of this world. Christ will of course win!
Revelation 16:17-18 is a fulfillment or completion of all the stones of the Jewish temple being thrown down as mentioned in the Olivet discourse.
Revelation 16:20 is the beginning of the bringing in of the end of this world before it is purified by fire (as mentioned by Peter - 2 Peter 3:10).

Greetings Bible Highlighter,

I agree that God did not appoint the true Christians to suffer His wrath, but they will be saved out of it (rapture - Matthew 24:29-34). This rapture occurs just before Lord Jesus pours out His wrath, punishing all those nations who come against Israel during that time (Zechariah, Chapters 12, 13, 14).

Notice in "Matthew 24:29-34" that the rapture occurs after the sun is turned black and the stars fall from the sky, etc. That is the period of time the rapture occurs.

So this rapture can only occur just before God's wrath is poured out upon the nations who come against Israel, but after the Tribulation of those days, and all the time leading up to that point (Matthew 24:1-28).

The Tribulation is not the wrath of God; rather, the wrath of God comes against the anti-Christ who caused the Tribulation.

See: Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14, and Isaiah 13, which are OT Scriptures showing the context of this wrath of God, which also Lord Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:29-34 (but not Matthew 24:1-28, which refers to the times leading up to and including the Tribulation), and was prefigured in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the slaughter of many Jews. These are all short and exciting chapters, and only takes a less than 10 minutes to read through these.

God surely did not appoint true Christians to suffer His wrath.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (WEB)
8 For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out, so that we need not to say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead: Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Revelation 6:15-17 (WEB)
15 The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains. 16 They told the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 11:18 (WEB)
18 The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged, and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints, and those who fear your name, to the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation chapters 16, 17 and 18 details the wrath of God judgments after the rapture of true Christians (Matthew 24:29-34).

That wrath is for the unbelievers and unfaithful Christians (See the Parables of unfaithful Christians in Matthew 25) and Jews who will be caught unawares of the wrath of God because they did not believe, and so were not looking for the signs of His coming.

The faithful Christians are aware of the signs of the times and are prepared to meet their Lord, having endured to the end (Hebrews 6:11-12; Revelation 14:12-13).

These faithful Christians are raptured out of the earth before the wrath of God (Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 6:12-17), but the Jews, including the God-fearing Jews remain on the earth during God's wrath, and 1/3 of the Jews will be saved through the Tribulation and the wrath of God (Zechariah 13:8-9) and their faith will be refined - God will save Israel during that time from all the nations that come against her, and will pour out His wrath upon those nations (Zechariah 12, 13, 14 and Revelation 16:16; Revelation 19:11-21).

Also there will be survivors from all the nations after God's wrath is poured out (Zechariah 14:16-19) during the Millennial reign of Christ on earth (in which glorified Christians will reign with Christ over the nations - Revelation 20:6) and, at this time, God fulfills all His many promises to the nation Israel (Zechariah 14).

After the thousand year reign of Christ, Satan will be released one last time to deceive the nations into coming against Israel and Lord Jesus one last time before the eternal state, but they will be destroyed by God (Revelation 20:7-10).

After that comes the judgment of the living and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15)

After that, the new heavens and new earth are created, and the New Jerusalem (the Bride of Christ in the City which Lord Jesus prepared for them) steps down out of heaven to be on earth, and so God will dwell with His people forever (Revelation 21:3-7).

Revelation 21:1-4 (WEB)
21 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”

Blessings

BABerean2 · Aug 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Revelation 16:5 is Jesus 2nd Coming at the six bowl (vial) judgment (Which is captured in more detail in Revelation 19:11-21).
Revelation 16:16 is a battle here upon this Earth involving Christ and the nations of this world. Christ will of course win!
Revelation 16:17-18 is a fulfillment or completion of all the stones of the Jewish temple being thrown down as mentioned in the Olivet discourse.
Revelation 16:20 is the beginning of the bringing in of the end of this world before it is purified by fire (as mentioned by Peter - 2 Peter 3:10).

You just proved the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and that a horse is not found in that vision of the Second Coming.

.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 16, 2021

setst777 said:
Greetings Bible Highlighter,

I agree that God did not appoint the true Christians to suffer His wrath, but they will be saved out of it (rapture - Matthew 24:29-34). This rapture occurs just before Lord Jesus pours out His wrath, punishing all those nations who come against Israel during that time (Zechariah, Chapters 12, 13, 14).

Notice in "Matthew 24:29-34" that the rapture occurs after the sun is turned black and the stars fall from the sky, etc. That is the period of time the rapture occurs.

So this rapture can only occur just before God's wrath is poured out upon the nations who come against Israel, but after the Tribulation of those days, and all the time leading up to that point (Matthew 24:1-28).

The Tribulation is not the wrath of God; rather, the wrath of God comes against the anti-Christ who caused the Tribulation.

See: Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14, and Isaiah 13, which are OT Scriptures showing the context of this wrath of God, which also Lord Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:29-34 (but not Matthew 24:1-28, which refers to the times leading up to and including the Tribulation), and was prefigured in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the slaughter of many Jews. These are all short and exciting chapters, and only takes a less than 10 minutes to read through these.

God surely did not appoint true Christians to suffer His wrath.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (WEB)
8 For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out, so that we need not to say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead: Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Revelation 6:15-17 (WEB)
15 The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains. 16 They told the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 11:18 (WEB)
18 The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged, and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints, and those who fear your name, to the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation chapters 16, 17 and 18 details the wrath of God judgments after the rapture of true Christians (Matthew 24:29-34).

That wrath is for the unbelievers and unfaithful Christians (See the Parables of unfaithful Christians in Matthew 25) and Jews who will be caught unawares of the wrath of God because they did not believe, and so were not looking for the signs of His coming.

The faithful Christians are aware of the signs of the times and are prepared to meet their Lord, having endured to the end (Hebrews 6:11-12; Revelation 14:12-13).

These faithful Christians are raptured out of the earth before the wrath of God (Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 6:12-17), but the Jews, including the God-fearing Jews remain on the earth during God's wrath, and 1/3 of the Jews will be saved through the Tribulation and the wrath of God (Zechariah 13:8-9) and their faith will be refined - God will save Israel during that time from all the nations that come against her, and will pour out His wrath upon those nations (Zechariah 12, 13, 14 and Revelation 16:16; Revelation 19:11-21).

Also there will be survivors from all the nations after God's wrath is poured out (Zechariah 14:16-19) during the Millennial reign of Christ on earth (in which glorified Christians will reign with Christ over the nations - Revelation 20:6) and, at this time, God fulfills all His many promises to the nation Israel (Zechariah 14).

After the thousand year reign of Christ, Satan will be released one last time to deceive the nations into coming against Israel and Lord Jesus one last time before the eternal state, but they will be destroyed by God (Revelation 20:7-10).

After that comes the judgment of the living and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15)

After that, the new heavens and new earth are created, and the New Jerusalem (the Bride of Christ in the City which Lord Jesus prepared for them) steps down out of heaven to be on earth, and so God will dwell with His people forever (Revelation 21:3-7).

Revelation 21:1-4 (WEB)
21 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”

Blessings

We are not far off in our Eschatology, brother. I believe there are two “Taking Up” events for the saints.

For your info., I believe there is….

#1. An Unexpected Rapture or Translation of the Saints (This Rapture takes place either Prior to Daniel’s 70th Week or it takes place in the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week, i.e. in the first 3 and a half years) (Note: This event is unique because it is a changing of the saint’s bodies to be like that of angels whereby they will rise up to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the air in the clouds). This event is described to us in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. In the Rapture, we are told that we will be raised a spiritual body (similar to like that of angels). So we can possibly rise on our own without any aid by angels gathering us (which appears to not be the case in the second “taking up” event).

#2. A Secondary taking up event that is not a Rapture but it is a gathering of the remaining Elect (or saints) by angels (This happens in the Middle of Daniel’s 70 Week). This event is alluded to in the Olivet discourse (like Matthew 24, etc.). Jesus will be seen coming prior to the taking of His remaining Elect by angels, but Jesus will not return just yet to the Earth (like with the 2nd Coming mentioned in Revelation 19).

#3. A Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Whereby Jesus will return with His saints following Him down from Heaven). Jesus will be returning to the Earth to destroy the nations of this world (Whereby He will eventually set up a new kingdom) (Revelation 19). The Second Coming of Christ starts at the latter half of the 6th bowl judgment towards the End of the Tribulation. I do not believe there will be any call or taking up event by God at this point. So I believe Post Tribulationism is false.

Why do I believe in two taking up events for the saints?

In the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins we get a call to Marriage (Which is a parallel of the Rapture) (See the beginning of Matthew 25). In the parable it talks about how the faithful wise virgins are in let in through a door for the Marriage. Then in Luke 12:36, we learn about how AFTER the wedding more servants are called to enter through the door.

“And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 16, 2021

setst777 said:
Greetings Bible Highlighter,

I agree that God did not appoint the true Christians to suffer His wrath, but they will be saved out of it (rapture - Matthew 24:29-34). This rapture occurs just before Lord Jesus pours out His wrath, punishing all those nations who come against Israel during that time (Zechariah, Chapters 12, 13, 14).

Notice in "Matthew 24:29-34" that the rapture occurs after the sun is turned black and the stars fall from the sky, etc. That is the period of time the rapture occurs.

So this rapture can only occur just before God's wrath is poured out upon the nations who come against Israel, but after the Tribulation of those days, and all the time leading up to that point (Matthew 24:1-28).

The Tribulation is not the wrath of God; rather, the wrath of God comes against the anti-Christ who caused the Tribulation.

See: Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14, and Isaiah 13, which are OT Scriptures showing the context of this wrath of God, which also Lord Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:29-34 (but not Matthew 24:1-28, which refers to the times leading up to and including the Tribulation), and was prefigured in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the slaughter of many Jews. These are all short and exciting chapters, and only takes a less than 10 minutes to read through these.

God surely did not appoint true Christians to suffer His wrath.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (WEB)
8 For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out, so that we need not to say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead: Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Revelation 6:15-17 (WEB)
15 The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains. 16 They told the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 11:18 (WEB)
18 The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged, and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints, and those who fear your name, to the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation chapters 16, 17 and 18 details the wrath of God judgments after the rapture of true Christians (Matthew 24:29-34).

That wrath is for the unbelievers and unfaithful Christians (See the Parables of unfaithful Christians in Matthew 25) and Jews who will be caught unawares of the wrath of God because they did not believe, and so were not looking for the signs of His coming.

The faithful Christians are aware of the signs of the times and are prepared to meet their Lord, having endured to the end (Hebrews 6:11-12; Revelation 14:12-13).

These faithful Christians are raptured out of the earth before the wrath of God (Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 6:12-17), but the Jews, including the God-fearing Jews remain on the earth during God's wrath, and 1/3 of the Jews will be saved through the Tribulation and the wrath of God (Zechariah 13:8-9) and their faith will be refined - God will save Israel during that time from all the nations that come against her, and will pour out His wrath upon those nations (Zechariah 12, 13, 14 and Revelation 16:16; Revelation 19:11-21).

Also there will be survivors from all the nations after God's wrath is poured out (Zechariah 14:16-19) during the Millennial reign of Christ on earth (in which glorified Christians will reign with Christ over the nations - Revelation 20:6) and, at this time, God fulfills all His many promises to the nation Israel (Zechariah 14).

After the thousand year reign of Christ, Satan will be released one last time to deceive the nations into coming against Israel and Lord Jesus one last time before the eternal state, but they will be destroyed by God (Revelation 20:7-10).

After that comes the judgment of the living and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15)

After that, the new heavens and new earth are created, and the New Jerusalem (the Bride of Christ in the City which Lord Jesus prepared for them) steps down out of heaven to be on earth, and so God will dwell with His people forever (Revelation 21:3-7).

Revelation 21:1-4 (WEB)
21 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”

Blessings

Why is there is a "Pre-Trib Rapture,"and a "Mid-Trib Gathering?"

Imminency Verses Defends A Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" (Titus 2:13).

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 25:13).

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." (Luke 12:40).

The Pre-Trib Rapture is new mystery revealed by Paul:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," (1 Corinthians 15:51).

Jesus says we can watch & pray so we can escape all these things (tribulation things) that He just mentioned beforehand in Luke 21:

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36).

What things shall we escape if we watch and pray?

War:

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"
(Luke 21:10).

Compare that with:

Revelation 6:4 that says,

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."

Earthquakes:

"And great earthquakes..."
(Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:

Revelation 6:12 that says,

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"

Revelation 8:5 says,
"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

Famines:

"...and famines..." (Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:

Revelation 6:5-6 that says,

“And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.”

God's People are not Appointed Unto Wrath:
(This means that faithful believers will not go through God's Wrath;
So both Pre-Trib believers and Mid-Trib believers will be protected from God's Wrath that is to come upon this world).

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

The Wrath begins with the beginning of the 1st Trumpet Judgment and ends in Revelation 15:1. Note: Ezekiel 13:11-13 alludes to God's wrath being tied with hailstones (Which is what we see as the start of God's wrath in the 70th week of Daniel). The day of God's wrath is a synonym for the Day of the Lord, which according to Joel 2:31, begins after the 6th seal. The unbelieving Gentiles crying that "the day of His wrath has come" (in Revelation 6) are referring to a future imminent event (i.e. the 1st trumpet judgment).

For the Elect's Sake The Great Tribulation Days Will Be Shortened:
(This fits the Mid Tribulation Saint being gathered up by angels before God pours out his wrath upon the world; For the Antichrist’s tribulation upon the world in killing people on a massive scale will be shortened and interrupted by God’s Wrath):

21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:21-22).

In the Midpoint of the Tribulation (Luke 21:20-27), believers are told to look up, for their redemption draws near: (This fits the Mid Tribulation Saint being gathered by angels before God pour out his wrath upon the world):

"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." (Luke 21:28).

One is taken, and other left is mentioned as happening within the Middle of the Tribulation (Luke 17:31-33 cf. Matthew 24:15-18):

34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Luke 17:34-36).

There are Two Calls:

The Pre-Trib Rapture Call:
(The Call to Marriage):

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10).

The Mid-Trib Gathering Call:
(The Call To Invite More After the Wedding Ceremony (or Legal Joining) Takes Place):

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).

Important Note:

In Revelation 19, the body of believers are already called as Christ's bride or wife. The wedding ceremony of the legal joining between the bride and Christ is over. But Revelation 19 says the wedding is come. However, this is the wedding feast after the joining of the wedding ceremony is over. The wedding supper has now come to the world with a metaphorical wedding supper representing a real literal battle upon the Earth (i.e. Christ's 2nd Coming).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 16, 2021

BABerean2 said:
You just proved the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and that a horse is not found in that vision of the Second Coming.

.

Not a new thing for me. Yes, I am aware that Revelation is not always literally chronological in all of it’s verses. But that does not mean that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not chronological. That would be faulty reasoning if you were to suggest otherwise.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 16, 2021

setst777 said:
Greetings Bible Highlighter,

I agree that God did not appoint the true Christians to suffer His wrath, but they will be saved out of it (rapture - Matthew 24:29-34). This rapture occurs just before Lord Jesus pours out His wrath, punishing all those nations who come against Israel during that time (Zechariah, Chapters 12, 13, 14).

Notice in "Matthew 24:29-34" that the rapture occurs after the sun is turned black and the stars fall from the sky, etc. That is the period of time the rapture occurs.

So this rapture can only occur just before God's wrath is poured out upon the nations who come against Israel, but after the Tribulation of those days, and all the time leading up to that point (Matthew 24:1-28).

The Tribulation is not the wrath of God; rather, the wrath of God comes against the anti-Christ who caused the Tribulation.

See: Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14, and Isaiah 13, which are OT Scriptures showing the context of this wrath of God, which also Lord Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:29-34 (but not Matthew 24:1-28, which refers to the times leading up to and including the Tribulation), and was prefigured in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the slaughter of many Jews. These are all short and exciting chapters, and only takes a less than 10 minutes to read through these.

God surely did not appoint true Christians to suffer His wrath.

Ephesians 5:6 (WEB)
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (WEB)
8 For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out, so that we need not to say anything. 9 For they themselves report concerning us what kind of a reception we had from you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead: Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Revelation 6:15-17 (WEB)
15 The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains. 16 They told the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 11:18 (WEB)
18 The nations were angry, and your wrath came, as did the time for the dead to be judged, and to give your bondservants the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints, and those who fear your name, to the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation chapters 16, 17 and 18 details the wrath of God judgments after the rapture of true Christians (Matthew 24:29-34).

That wrath is for the unbelievers and unfaithful Christians (See the Parables of unfaithful Christians in Matthew 25) and Jews who will be caught unawares of the wrath of God because they did not believe, and so were not looking for the signs of His coming.

The faithful Christians are aware of the signs of the times and are prepared to meet their Lord, having endured to the end (Hebrews 6:11-12; Revelation 14:12-13).

These faithful Christians are raptured out of the earth before the wrath of God (Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 6:12-17), but the Jews, including the God-fearing Jews remain on the earth during God's wrath, and 1/3 of the Jews will be saved through the Tribulation and the wrath of God (Zechariah 13:8-9) and their faith will be refined - God will save Israel during that time from all the nations that come against her, and will pour out His wrath upon those nations (Zechariah 12, 13, 14 and Revelation 16:16; Revelation 19:11-21).

Also there will be survivors from all the nations after God's wrath is poured out (Zechariah 14:16-19) during the Millennial reign of Christ on earth (in which glorified Christians will reign with Christ over the nations - Revelation 20:6) and, at this time, God fulfills all His many promises to the nation Israel (Zechariah 14).

After the thousand year reign of Christ, Satan will be released one last time to deceive the nations into coming against Israel and Lord Jesus one last time before the eternal state, but they will be destroyed by God (Revelation 20:7-10).

After that comes the judgment of the living and the dead (Revelation 20:11-15)

After that, the new heavens and new earth are created, and the New Jerusalem (the Bride of Christ in the City which Lord Jesus prepared for them) steps down out of heaven to be on earth, and so God will dwell with His people forever (Revelation 21:3-7).

Revelation 21:1-4 (WEB)
21 I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”

Blessings

If you are interested, you can check out my extensive End Times Chronology here:

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

Davy · Aug 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
It just seems odd that on the same day He would be coming in the clouds to gather His elect by angels and then go back up and then come back down on a white horse to have his saints follow Him down on the same day.

It is not written anywhere that when Lord Jesus comes to gather His Church, that He goes back up into Heaven. Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 are clear that His feet touches down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, bringing all His saints with Him.

It's the men doctrines you're listening to that say Jesus comes to take His Church to Heaven, and then returns later, creating a non-existant 3rd coming by doing that.

Why do the saints even need to even go up if that is the case? Why not just change them to fight while they are on the ground?

What Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the "last trump" change at the "twinkling of an eye" goes with the event of Christ's coming to gather His Church. What most have a hard time understanding is that on that day of Christ's coming, it will end this present time of man in a flesh body. That "day of the Lord", which both Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night", will burn man's works off the surface of this earth, literally. And everyone alive will be changed suddenly. That is how even the unsaved on earth will see Christ at His coming and fear (Matthew 24:30).

We all will be 'changed' to a spirit body on that day, including the wicked. This is what it means in 1 Thessalonians 4 about being "caught up" by Jesus on that day for those of His still alive on earth. Those of us still here will be 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' and caught up to Him and the asleep saints He brings with Him from Heaven. Jerusalem here on earth is where He is returning to, and that is where He is bringing His Church once He gathers them. The heavenly dimension is actually coming here, on earth, on that day. That is how even the wicked on the 6th Seal will see both The Father and His Son on His throne, and fear that day of His wrath.

Plus, the timing of the Post Trib Rapture is all wrong from my understanding of the placement of the Middle of Daniel's 70th Week followed by the sixth seal.

If you keep to the written Word of God, The Bible, it reveals a post-trib coming of Christ to gather His Church, bringing them together as He descends to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And God's Word also shows with that event, it is the 'final' day of this present world. So whatever you think the Book of Daniel is saying, it does not agree that the 70th "one week" goes past the 'day' of Christ's coming. And actually, the latter part of the 6th Seal shows the day of Christ's coming. All 3 sets, the Seals, the Trumpets, and the Vials, are all summaries of the 7 main SIGNS of the end of 'this' world, which Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

The Middle of Daniel's 70th week has lots more time and stuff to happen within it. The days that shall be shortened are not the whole latter half of the Tribulation but it is the period of time of when the Antichrist kills lots of people with the breaking of the 4th seal when he enforces the mark.

Revelation actually shows the beast king, i.e., the pseudo-Christ, showing up on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial.

The 'latter' half of Daniel's final "one week" (7 years) is when the "great tribulation" is. It begins when the dragon and his angels are cast out of heaven down to this earth. That also is when God's two witnesses will prophesy against him, for 1260 days, the latter half of Daniel's "one week".

So that stuff about the middle of the week is simply doctrines of men, and not staying with the actual written Word of God.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 16, 2021

Davy said:
It is not written anywhere that when Lord Jesus comes to gather His Church, that He goes back up into Heaven. Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 are clear that His feet touches down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, bringing all His saints with Him.

It's the men doctrines you're listening to that say Jesus comes to take His Church to Heaven, and then returns later, creating a non-existant 3rd coming by doing that.

What Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the "last trump" change at the "twinkling of an eye" goes with the event of Christ's coming to gather His Church. What most have a hard time understanding is that on that day of Christ's coming, it will end this present time of man in a flesh body. That "day of the Lord", which both Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night", will burn man's works off the surface of this earth, literally. And everyone alive will be changed suddenly. That is how even the unsaved on earth will see Christ at His coming and fear (Matthew 24:30).

We all will be 'changed' to a spirit body on that day, including the wicked. This is what it means in 1 Thessalonians 4 about being "caught up" by Jesus on that day for those of His still alive on earth. Those of us still here will be 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' and caught up to Him and the asleep saints He brings with Him from Heaven. Jerusalem here on earth is where He is returning to, and that is where He is bringing His Church once He gathers them. The heavenly dimension is actually coming here, on earth, on that day. That is how even the wicked on the 6th Seal will see both The Father and His Son on His throne, and fear that day of His wrath.

If you keep to the written Word of God, The Bible, it reveals a post-trib coming of Christ to gather His Church, bringing them together as He descends to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And God's Word also shows with that event, it is the 'final' day of this present world. So whatever you think the Book of Daniel is saying, it does not agree that the 70th "one week" goes past the 'day' of Christ's coming. And actually, the latter part of the 6th Seal shows the day of Christ's coming. All 3 sets, the Seals, the Trumpets, and the Vials, are all summaries of the 7 main SIGNS of the end of 'this' world, which Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

Revelation actually shows the beast king, i.e., the pseudo-Christ, showing up on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial.

The 'latter' half of Daniel's final "one week" (7 years) is when the "great tribulation" is. It begins when the dragon and his angels are cast out of heaven down to this earth. That also is when God's two witnesses will prophesy against him, for 1260 days, the latter half of Daniel's "one week".

So that stuff about the middle of the week is simply doctrines of men, and not staying with the actual written Word of God.

There are many problems with Post Trib Rapture Viewpoint.

Here are just a few.

#1. God’s people are not appointed unto Wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
#2. The days of the tribulation (i.e. the Antichrist’s killing of many) will be shortened or interrupted by God’s Wrath (Otherwise no flesh would be saved if this was not the case) (Matthew 24:22).
#3. The truth of our Lord’s words on the servant who says that their Lord delays His coming whereby He beats His fellow servants (of which I have seen on verbal level) is nullified (Matthew 24:48-49).
#4. Son of man comes in an hour you think not - Luke 12:40.
#5. Pray so as to escape all these things (Luke 21:36). What things?

War:

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"
(Luke 21:10).

Compare that with:
Revelation 6:4 that says,

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."

Earthquakes:

"And great earthquakes..."
(Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:
Revelation 6:12 that says,

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"

Revelation 8:5 says,
"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

Famines:

"...and famines..." (Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:
Revelation 6:5-6 that says,

“And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.”

BABerean2 · Aug 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Not a new thing for me. Yes, I am aware that Revelation is not always literally chronological in all of it’s verses. But that does not mean that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not chronological. That would be faulty reasoning if you were to suggest otherwise.

The seals were opened by Christ during the first century, and then John was told to "Come and see."
John then wrote what he saw in the Book of Revelation.
That does not mean all of those events have now occurred.

.

Davy · Aug 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
There are many problems with Post Trib Rapture Viewpoint.

Here are just a few.

#1. God’s people are not appointed unto Wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

No problems at all with the post-trib view, for that is what is actually written, AS I have already proven in earlier posts.

Your #1 is false, simply because the "wrath" Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 is TIMED with the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived there, which happens on the "day of the Lord" he also showed there. That means... are your ready?... it means... THAT "wrath"... is about GOD's Wrath upon the Wicked on the 'last' day of this world! So of course, God's wrath is NOT appointed to those of us in Christ Jesus! Your Pre-trib teachers are either deceived about which "wrath" Paul was pointing to, or they purposefully are out to deceive the gullible who won't do their own Bible study.

#2. The days of the tribulation (i.e. the Antichrist’s killing of many) will be shortened or interrupted by God’s Wrath (Otherwise no flesh would be saved if this was not the case) (Matthew 24:22).

Like I said, the Pre-trib doctors have deceived you about what "wrath" Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. Because you quickly 'jump' to that, without grasping the previous 8 verses in that Chapter, means you heed men, and not God's Word.

Jesus said He shortened the tribulation for the sake of His elect. He never said there His coming would be in the middle of that "great tribulation". He specifically said... His coming is AFTER... the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). So already you are spreading falsehoods against His Holy Writ.

#3. The truth of our Lord’s words on the servant who says that their Lord delays His coming whereby He beats His fellow servants (of which I have seen on verbal level) is nullified (Matthew 24:48-49).

That's what those on a pre-trib rapture theory will be found guilty of when Jesus does return at the end of the tribulation, and finds they have not been watching the SIGNS He gave His Church about the end of this world. The pre-trib doctors are preparing their congregations to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ who comes first in place of... Jesus Christ Who comes later. That's why Jesus answered His disciples of where the first ones taken are taken to, and it's to wheresoever the fowls are gathered to feast on dead carcasses (end of Luke 17 and Matthew 24:28).

#4. Son of man comes in an hour you think not - Luke 12:40.

No man knows the year, the month, the day, nor the hour of Christ's return. But those in Christ are... to know the 'season' of events leading up to His coming that He gave, as I have already pointed to in a previous post.

#5. Pray so as to escape all these things (Luke 21:36). What things?

Not physical escape, but the 'hour of temptation'. Only Christ's elect who listen to Him in His Word will spiritually... escape the coming "great tribulation". And this escape means NOT BEING TEMPTED TO BOW IN FALSE WORSHIP TO THE COMING FALSE MESSIAH. That's... what the hour of temptation is about, and that is what we are to pray to escape.

And furthermore, how can the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 gathering of the saints by Christ even happen AFTER that tribulation like He said if the escape is meant to be a physical escape during the tribulation? You don't realize it, but the pre-trib rapture doctors have gone directly opposite of Christ's Own Words there with their physical escapist theories.

War:

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"
(Luke 21:10).

Compare that with:
Revelation 6:4 that says,

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."

Obviously, you are not aware that the time of "great tribulation" is for the very end. The Seals of Rev.6 are the same SIGNs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. The time great tribulation starts is with Matthew 24:15 when the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel is setup in Jerusalem. That's to involve the placing of the image of the beast idol in Jerusalem for all the world to bow in false worship to (Revelation 13:11 forward). That... is what kicks off the "great tribulation", because Christ's elect are not going to bow to it nor that pseudo-Christ, and will be persecuted for it, even turned in by deceived loved ones who will bow.

So in Matthew 24:6, Lord Jesus said that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, THEN THE END IS NOT YET. That means the END will be a time when ALL wars have stopped. Thus the 2nd Seal is NOT great tribulation time, not yet.

Earthquakes:

"And great earthquakes..."
(Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:
Revelation 6:12 that says,

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"

Revelation 8:5 says,
"And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

I see you've been reading the standard Pre-trib Rapture school propaganda from books written by Hal Lindsey and LaHaye. Those are built on sensationalism to serve man's false pre-trib rapture theory, not God's Word.

Many simply skip over the next verse after Revelation 6:12 which links with that particular earthquake...

Rev 6:13
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

That's a heavy metaphor Christ gave to His elect which keep His Word. No wonder those who make up their own doctrines can't understand it. Just who as a star of heaven FELL to earth originally?

Luke 10:18
18 And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."
KJV

What event in Revelation does that link to? It links to Revelation 12:7-9 for the end. That is about the casting out of Heaven of Satan and his angels to this earthly dimension where we live, for the end, and in person. The world is going to see him as he is, a beautiful cherub with the image of man, for God said He made him the full pattern (Ezekiel 28). Even his fateful destruction God showed will be a fire burning him up upon the earth in the sight of men (Ezekiel 28:18).

So what the first part... of that 6th Seal shows, is the time of the "great tribulation" starting with Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly down to this earth, like untimely figs, which is about the literal winter fig that grows in the winter, but falls off early in the spring. Lord Jesus' symbolic time of coming is at the end of summer, the time of the good fig.

But you won't understand that, because you can't even keep to what Lord Jesus said in His written Word, as I have already shown. Thus the real 'earthquake', and not a fake one the false one is going to create, the real one only happens on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns on the 7th Trumpet, and last part of the 6th Seal.

Famines:

"...and famines..." (Luke 21:11).

Compare that with:
Revelation 6:5-6 that says,

“And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.”

We've been in that Seal for a long time now. Haven't you seen how many in Africa have starved to death, especially those in Somalia?

The Unexpected Rapture (Either Pre-Trib, or takes place in the 1st 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation)

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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