Does anyone actually believe Jack Chick's theology?

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So prior to Acts 10, you agree that Jews needed to be water baptized, before the Holy Spirit could come into them, such as what happened in Acts 2?

No. I am saying the disciples yet again misunderstood Jesus. So the disciples water baptized as they always did a part of Jewish customs. But these Jewish customs were no longer binding under the New Covenant even though God allowed for them to take place. For water baptism in the old Jewish custom pointed to the greater reality (Which was Spirit baptism). I think the Lord allowed for Peter to misunderstand on this topic because it would have been hard for the many Jews at Pentecost to accept the Lord without their Jewish custom of water baptism. The Jews were still heavily steeped in their traditions and customs. But it did not mean those customs were still in effect. But God was still able to move His Spirit in their lives despite their imperfect understanding on the baptism issue (Just as God was able to move in our lives when we first accepted the Lord - despite our imperfect understanding on certain things in His Word).
 
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Guojing

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No. I am saying the disciples yet again misunderstood Jesus. So the disciples water baptized as they always did a part of Jewish customs. But these Jewish customs were no longer binding under the New Covenant even though God allowed for them to take place. For water baptism in the old Jewish custom pointed to the greater reality (Which was Spirit baptism). I think the Lord allowed for Peter to misunderstand on this topic because it would have been hard for the many Jews at Pentecost to accept the Lord without their Jewish custom of water baptism. The Jews were still heavily steeped in their traditions and customs. But it did not mean those customs were still in effect. But God was still able to move His Spirit in their lives despite their imperfect understanding on the baptism issue (Just as God was able to move in our lives when we first accepted the Lord - despite our imperfect understanding on certain things in His Word).

Jesus told them in Matthew 28:20, the final verse, to teach others "to obey everything I have commanded you", which includes obeying everything contained in the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 23:2-3)

So why do you think the 11 apostles have misunderstood what the resurrected Christ told them, after the cross?
 
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Jesus told them in Matthew 28:20, the final verse, to teach others "to obey everything I have commanded you", which includes obeying everything contained in the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 23:2-3)

Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).​

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).​

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
 
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So why do you think the 11 apostles have misunderstood what the resurrected Christ told them, after the cross?

Well, first, Judas was shortly replaced by Matthias (See: Acts of the Apostles 1:23-26) whereby he was numbered with the previous 11 (Making it 12 disciples again).

Second, I believe the 12 apostles misunderstood Jesus on CERTAIN things and not all things. I believe the apostles misunderstood Jesus in regards to the Old Law being fulfilled (with the commands in the New Testament superseding them), and the Jewish custom of water baptism no longer being in effect because they were not ready for that change on account of their being steeped deeply in the Old ways.

For Jesus said:
“No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new:
for he saith, The old is better.”
(Luke 5:39).
 
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Guojing

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Here are a list of verses showing us the Old Law is no more:

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).​

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).​

In conclusion:

You sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's kind of like a contract when you buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house. Meaning: This is why we seek to follow the New Covenant (New Testament) primarily even though there are certain laws that have carried over from the Old Covenant (Old Testament). We are clearly not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Since you quoted mostly from Paul's letters, you do agree that the idea that the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14) , was not something that the 12 were suppose to be preaching in early Acts?

I am aware that, sometime in the middle of Acts, Israel the nation fell, hence Paul was saved by the ascended Christ and was revealed the mystery, which showed, as you stated, that water baptism was no longer a requirement for salvation.

But that was not being taught by the resurrected Christ, immediately after the cross. As far as the 12 were aware of in early Acts, Christ told them to continue preaching the Law of Moses to Israel (Matthew 28:20)
 
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Root of Jesse

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Actually, only God knows. We can surmise, but cannot know her ultimate fate. According to Catholic theology she may very well be in Purgatory at the moment.
According to the Catholic Church, she is, definitively, in heaven, hence, the "Saint" at the front of her name. We believe that info has been revealed to the Church.
 
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bbbbbbb

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According to the Catholic Church, she is, definitively, in heaven, hence, the "Saint" at the front of her name. We believe that info has been revealed to the Church.

Of course you believe she is in heaven because your denominational authorities have made that assertion. At one point they were equally emphatic about numerous other saints being in heaven, such as St. Christopher whose benefactions spared untold numbers of Catholics from dangers in travels innumerable, but who, on close inspection proved never to have even existed. Was your denomination correct for many centuries in telling its members that these saints were real and answered the heartfelt prayers of their supplicants?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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His superabundant love and grace which He has for all creation, in whom He has chosen to partake as Redeemer and Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord; who by His life, death, and resurrection has accomplished salvation for us and the whole world, and at whose coming again shall bring to consummation all which was promised and purposed in the beginning: World without end. Amen.

The only one standing between you and your salvation is you. The door to the Father's House is wide open, as wide and as open as the arms that were spread out upon the cross. And Christ carries us through the open door, the Shepherd carrying broken lambs to the sheep-gate, the Samaritan carrying the wounded man to the inn. The only-begotten Son of the Father bringing wounded children Home.

-CryptoLutheran
The criteria for me is simple: When Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, He took upon Himself the guilt and punishment for my sin, and in return gave me His righteousness, so that at the Judgment, God will count my sin to Jesus and declare me acquitted.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The criteria for me is simple: When Jesus suffered and died on the Cross, He took upon Himself the guilt and punishment for my sin, and in return gave me His righteousness, so that at the Judgment, God will count my sin to Jesus and declare me acquitted.

Without quibbling on Atonement details, do you believe that Jesus did this for you, but not others?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Without quibbling on Atonement details, do you believe that Jesus did this for you, but not others?

-CryptoLutheran
I'm not the only sinner whom Jesus came to save. He came to save all those whom God foreknew who were going to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm not the only sinner whom Jesus came to save. He came to save all those whom God foreknew who were going to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ.

I don't believe God plays such games. Christ came to save the world. Period. Full stop.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Since you quoted mostly from Paul's letters, you do agree that the idea that the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14) , was not something that the 12 were suppose to be preaching in early Acts?

I am aware that, sometime in the middle of Acts, Israel the nation fell, hence Paul was saved by the ascended Christ and was revealed the mystery, which showed, as you stated, that water baptism was no longer a requirement for salvation.

But that was not being taught by the resurrected Christ, immediately after the cross. As far as the 12 were aware of in early Acts, Christ told them to continue preaching the Law of Moses to Israel (Matthew 28:20)

The New Covenant officially began with Christ’s death.

“Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:9).

“Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.” (Luke 22:20).

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;” (Matthew 27:51).

“For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:17).

When the New Covenant began, the new respective laws of the New Covenant then were established. The Old passed away giving way to the New way. So the Law of Moses (the 613) was no longer a binding contract when Jesus died upon the cross.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You clearly sound like a Universalist here. Are you?

If by universalist you mean do I believe everyone will be saved in the end. No, I'm not a universalist.

If by universalist you mean do I believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone, and that it is God's will that all be saved. Then yes.

Universalism requires a dogmatic position on something fundamentally unknowable; and renders the very serious warnings of Scripture rather moot. That we can collude with our own destruction is very much a serious warning in Scripture; and the sobering truth is there are likely very many who may do that very thing.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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The New Covenant officially began with Christ’s death.
.

Do you know when the Old covenant officially began for Israel in the OT?

It did not begin when Moses receive the 10 commandments from God, it began after the entire nation of Israel declared they will obey the Old Covenant, at Exodus 24:1-8.

When did the nation of Israel declared to God, thru Christ, that they will obey the New Covenant?
 
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Do you know when the Old covenant officially began for Israel in the OT?

It did not begin when Moses receive the 10 commandments from God, it began after the entire nation of Israel declared they will obey the Old Covenant, at Exodus 24:8.

When did the nation of Israel declared to God, thru Christ, that they will obey the New Covenant?

While there were different sub covenants in the Old Testament, there are primarily two major covenants in the Bible. There is the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant. This is why our Bibles are divided with an Old Testament and New Testament (even though the stories for each respective covenants does not begin exactly at the beginning of the narrative). Hebrews 10:9 says that God has taken away the first so that He might establish the second. This is speaking of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. God took away the first Old Covenant so that He might establish the second New Covenant.
 
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bbbbbbb

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If by universalist you mean do I believe everyone will be saved in the end. No, I'm not a universalist.

If by universalist you mean do I believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone, and that it is God's will that all be saved. Then yes.

Universalism requires a dogmatic position on something fundamentally unknowable; and renders the very serious warnings of Scripture rather moot. That we can collude with our own destruction is very much a serious warning in Scripture; and the sobering truth is there are likely very many who may do that very thing.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for clarifying your position.
 
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bbbbbbb

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While there were different sub covenants in the Old Testament, there are primarily two major covenants in the Bible. There is the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant. This is why our Bibles are divided with an Old Testament and New Testament (even though the stories for each respective covenants does not begin exactly at the beginning of the narrative). Hebrews 10:9 says that God has taken away the first so that He might establish the second. This is speaking of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. God took away the first Old Covenant so that He might establish the second New Covenant.

To elaborate further. The first covenant was conditional upon Israel accepting it along with its stipulations (commandments) and their willingness to keep those stipulations.

The second covenant is also conditional. It was conditional upon Jesus Christ accepting it along with its stipulations (His expiatory death on the cross) and His willingness to keep that stipulation. Thus, those who enter into that covenant (believers in Jesus Christ) are not bound by the stipulations (commandments) of either covenant.
 
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While there were different sub covenants in the Old Testament, there are primarily two major covenants in the Bible. There is the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant. This is why our Bibles are divided with an Old Testament and New Testament (even though the stories for each respective covenants does not begin exactly at the beginning of the narrative). Hebrews 10:9 says that God has taken away the first so that He might establish the second. This is speaking of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. God took away the first Old Covenant so that He might establish the second New Covenant.

As Hebrews 8:8 stated clearly, the New Covenant will be made (future tense) with the nation of Israel.

When did the nation of Israel declared to God, thru Christ, that they will obey the New Covenant?

That is my question to you.
 
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Guojing

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To elaborate further. The first covenant was conditional upon Israel accepting it along with its stipulations (commandments) and their willingness to keep those stipulations.

The second covenant is also conditional. It was conditional upon Jesus Christ accepting it along with its stipulations (His expiatory death on the cross) and His willingness to keep that stipulation. Thus, those who enter into that covenant (believers in Jesus Christ) are not bound by the stipulations (commandments) of either covenant.

So are you saying, in another way, that all of us who believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4, have also joined the House of Israel and Judah in Hebrews 8:8?

That is why all of us are also under that New Covenant stated in that verse?
 
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