What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

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com7fy8

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the Pharisees were torqued enough at him for claiming to be the Son of God..
Satan is the one really with the problem . . . about Jesus being God's own Son and therefore Jesus is on the throne, instead of Satan.

So, his evil spirit was involved with the Pharisees so hating Jesus.

Another item > 1 John 4:15 does say,

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

The Holy Spirit here says if we confess that Jesus is
"the Son of God", then God abides in us.

The Holy Spirit does not directly say God abides in us if we confess that "Jesus is God". But, also, the Holy Spirit does not directly say God abides in us if we confess that Jesus is not God.

How I personally get this is that, when the New Testament is talking about "God", it can mean God our Heavenly Father. And when God's word is talking about Jesus, we have things like simply "Jesus" and "the Son of God" and "the image of God".

"God" in the Bible Greek can be said as "o theos", meaning the One over all > it is not capitalized in the Greek, by the way, though it talks even about our Heavenly Father. And though I understand Jesus and our Father are equal in quality of spirit and character of love, our Father is over Jesus, thus called "o theos", because of highest ruling position . . . not because of better character and essence.

But there are humans who are very into position over another meaning inequality. So, if our Father rules over and through His Son Jesus, ones might take this to mean They are not equal. And behind it all can be Satan who is jealous of Jesus having any kind of standing, at all, in Heaven. So, Satan with people will have ones trying to make Jesus less than He is, in any way that Satan can try.
 
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Clare73

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John 10:29, and John 14:28, the Father God is "greater than I am", and is "greater than all", including God the Spirit (who is God in the OT, and the Holy Spirit, and then, after the NT, and the Spirit of Christ, etc) for those two might have always been co-equal...
The Son is subject to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is subject to both the Father and the Son.
But that does not affect their equality in the NT.
They are always presented as equals--in their nature, in their origin, in their work, in their power, in worship of them.
I am going away to where my Father always was and is, but I will not leave you as orphans, nor without any power, because now you can have God the Spirit helping you by living inside of you now, and that, until I return to where I did go/went to prepare places for you, for when I come back to get you at my second coming, etc...

Until then, you now have God the Spirit/Holy Spirit/God in the OT/Spirit of Christ, that was in me, Christ, and is now with you and in you now, the same as He was with me...

It's "plenty" to deal with anything in and/or of, and/or belonging to this world until I shall return...

God Bless!
 
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sandman

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So, his evil spirit was involved with the Pharisees so hating Jesus.

Evil spirit is putting it mildly …those cats (Pharisees) in John 8 had accepted Satan as their father, they were seed of the devil. They opposed Jesus at every turn and eventually ended up responsible for His death….which was a big mistake…
Ignorant of the mystery, which God had kept hidden ….and the riches of the glory of the mystery …..Christ in us…..
If we (and I include myself) would really believe what we have in us…we could walk undaunted in this world as Christ did…. proclaiming the Truth and walking with the power of God in our lives.

1 Cor 2
2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
 
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Andrewn

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But that does not affect their equality in the NT.
They are always presented as equals--in their nature, in their origin, in their work, in their power, in worship of them.
If this is the case, there would have never been Arianism. Where do you see this equality clearly stated?
 
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Satan is the one really with the problem . . . about Jesus being God's own Son and therefore Jesus is on the throne, instead of Satan.

So, his evil spirit was involved with the Pharisees so hating Jesus.

Another item > 1 John 4:15 does say,

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

The Holy Spirit here says if we confess that Jesus is
"the Son of God", then God abides in us.

The Holy Spirit does not directly say God abides in us if we confess that "Jesus is God". But, also, the Holy Spirit does not directly say God abides in us if we confess that Jesus is not God.

How I personally get this is that, when the New Testament is talking about "God", it can mean God our Heavenly Father. And when God's word is talking about Jesus, we have things like simply "Jesus" and "the Son of God" and "the image of God".

"God" in the Bible Greek can be said as "o theos", meaning the One over all > it is not capitalized in the Greek, by the way, though it talks even about our Heavenly Father. And though I understand Jesus and our Father are equal in quality of spirit and character of love, our Father is over Jesus, thus called "o theos", because of highest ruling position . . . not because of better character and essence.

But there are humans who are very into position over another meaning inequality. So, if our Father rules over and through His Son Jesus, ones might take this to mean They are not equal. And behind it all can be Satan who is jealous of Jesus having any kind of standing, at all, in Heaven. So, Satan with people will have ones trying to make Jesus less than He is, in any way that Satan can try.

Jesus is eternal and uncreated. He came into the flesh. For the Word who was God (John 1:1) was made flesh (John 1:14). Many believe Jesus was a created dem-god in the Incarnation. But this is a denial of Jesus (the Eternal Logos) coming into the flesh.

1 John 4:3 says:
“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

Jesus said, “if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24).

The word “he” is not in the Greek. So Jesus is saying, that if we do not believe He is the “I AM,” we will die in our sins. For in the following scene in Scripture: We learn that when Jesus declared Himself to be the Great “I AM” in Exodus chapter 3, the Jews went ape crazy and wanted to stone him over it.

“Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” (John 8:57-59).
 
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sandman

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Not directly, but the Pharisees knew he was claiming to be God, John 10:32.
Jesus also used God's name - "I AM" as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Exodus 3:14, John 6:35, John 8:58, John 10:11, John 11:25.
Jesus did not rebuke Thomas who declared Jesus to be God, John 20:28.



They did, pretty much.
When Jesus cast out demons, the Pharisees said he was doing it by the power of the devil, Mark 3:22, they said that only God could forgive sins, Mark 2:7, they tried to stone him for blasphemy and eventually had him crucified for that reason.



Paul knew that Jesus was, and is, God. When he saw the bright light on the road to Damascus he said "who are you Lord?" and had the answer, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."
He wrote;
"who being in very nature God", Philippians 2:5.
"He is the image of the invisible God ... for by him, all things were created", Colossians 1:16.



I think it would.
They didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah, never mind as God. I don't know what they believed about the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't sound like they would have accepted that he, and Jesus, were both divine, both one with God, yet there was only one God.

I am not here to slam the trinity, duo theistic, or monotheistic belief of God. I study the Word for accuracy and there are many verses used on both sides, but overwhelmingly on the triune side that don’t hold water. Our goal (well, mine) is to protect the integrity of the Word. To seek the truth …then believe….and it doesn’t matter if it’s this, or any other subject.

My attempt is not to attack other believers, I don’t like doing that any more than I like being attacked…I don’t want to make it personal ….I want it to be about the Truth so that our stand (whatever it might be) is on solid ground.

John 10:30

It is one in purpose (hen ἕν neuter), not one in person, which would be masculine (heis).

Consider 1 Cor 3:

3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Same word, same gender ….But no one reading this would think that Paul and Apollos were the same person.

__________________________________________________________________
The “I AM” is used frequently as you have done….But for this to be valid it needs to have a solid foundation.

The foundation for this is found in Exodus 3:14. The term I AM does not mean I AM in Hebrew. The phrase actually means To be or To Become ….so God is saying I will be, what I will be. The I AM in Exodus is a mistranslation of the Hebrew text. While the Greek phrase in John does mean I AM …the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means to become.

There is much more to this I’m not going into….or the other scriptures you give reference to. I understand where you are coming from. But from a simple point of view…. ….Jesus calls or is referred to… as the son of God more than 50 times …never once does he say he is God.

Yes….Thomas in John 20:28 called Jesus God…. which is a descriptive title that was used and could apply to a range of authority including the Roman governor Acts 12:22 and the devil 2 Cor 4:4.

But what I what to know is ………...How would somebody who has a Bible, but does not have access to any reference books, internet, or outside teachings ….how would they conclude who/what Jesus is?

Would they conclude He is the Son of God? or God? And would they conclude any semblance of a trinity.
 
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Jay Sea

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"No on can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." John 6:65
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:37
"No one can see the kingdom of God until he is born again." John 3:3
"Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." John 3:18
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

The above are doctrine.
Doctrine is truth.
We must worship God in truth.
Love rejoices in the truth. (1 Corinthians 3:16)
The Father enables everyone to come to him either through trust in Yeshua or by some other means that they become to trust in G-d directly and then trust Yeshua. One worships G-d by living as he wills. One does not need doctrines which are statements after the fact. It is g-d's love that brings people to him. Not statements of doctrine.
In Love
Jay Sea
 
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BABerean2

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What are the motivations or reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?

I am always fascinated behind the motivations behind why people believe they do. I can understand why some people might hold to various beliefs that I think are unbiblical, but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled. Why do they do this? For there are believers who do not understand the Trinity and yet they accept it by faith it is true (even when they don’t understand it). I admire them for that. For me: I guess I was blessed by the Lord to be able to understand the Trinity right away.

One of the biggest problems is the failure to understand the master teacher promised to all New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34. It is also the failure to understand that the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


The promise is further explain below by Christ.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

and also in the scripture below...


Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


The process of receiving the Spirit is found below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


The fulfillment is also found below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


The scripture above reveals that every New Covenant believer has a relationship with the Son, and the Father, through the Holy Spirit sent at conversion. He is the master teacher.

.
 
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It is also the failure to understand that the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water.

The meaning of the English word “baptize” (and it’s related words) in the New Testament is defined by the context. Sometimes the word “baptize” is used in reference to water baptism (Like 1 Corinthians 1:17), and other times it is in reference to being baptized into the Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 19:5). At another time, the word “baptize” is in reference to being immersed into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by giving them the teachings of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:19). So it depends on the context.

I go more into depth on this in this thread here:

What is the “one baptism” mentioned in Ephesians 4:5? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

You said:
One of the biggest problems is the failure to understand the master teacher promised to all New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Actually, Jeremiah 31:34 takes place in the New Covenant in the future Millennium, and not today.

I highlighted the words in red what has not happened yet. For the saying that says: “for they shall all know me” is not true today. The verse says: We are to no more teach every man his neighbor saying, “Know the Lord” because to tell others about Christ (in telling them to know the Lord) is irrelevant in the Millennium. For everyone will know the Lord in 1,000 year reign of Christ. Right now, many do not know the Lord Jesus. So you cannot apply Jeremiah 31:34 as being applicable today. Sabbath day keeping Christians have a hard time accepting the truth of this verse in what it says. They also think this verse applies today because they are influenced by their promotion of the Sabbath day command.

The promise is further explain below by Christ.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

and also in the scripture below...

John 14:26 is not related to Jeremiah 31:34. For Jeremiah 31:34 clearly happens in the future after Christ’s return.

You said:
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


The process of receiving the Spirit is found below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


The fulfillment is also found below.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


The scripture above reveals that every New Covenant believer has a relationship with the Son, and the Father, through the Holy Spirit sent at conversion. He is the master teacher.

.

This really does not answer the question of a person’s wrong motivation in rejecting the Trinity. Are you implying by these words that a person can reject the Trinity and be saved? I sure hope not. For that would be false worship. Granted, I believe a person can abide with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit without knowing about them all when they first accept Jesus as their Savior, but if they later turn out to reject the Trinity (once that truth is revealed to them by God’s Word), they are in essence rejecting God as revealed in Scripture. So then can a person continue to abide in God if they later reject Him? I don’t believe so.
 
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BABerean2

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Actually, Jeremiah 31:34 takes place in the New Covenant in the future Millennium, and not today.


You are ignoring the word "now" in the passage below, where the author of the Book of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 word-for-word. The OT text is in uppercase letters in the NKJV.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

-------------------------------------------------

(Search on the term "New Covenant" in the NKJV)


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (Written to the church at Corinth.)

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


.
 
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Andrewn

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The “I AM” is used frequently as you have done….But for this to be valid it needs to have a solid foundation.

The foundation for this is found in Exodus 3:14. The term I AM does not mean I AM in Hebrew. The phrase actually means To be or To Become ….so God is saying I will be, what I will be. The I AM in Exodus is a mistranslation of the Hebrew text. While the Greek phrase in John does mean I AM …the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means to become.
While the translations you give for "Yahweh" are possible and promoted by modern Jews, "I am" is the better accepted translation that Jesus used and his hearers found to be blasphemous. Please study the following 3 incidents in your Bible:

"In John, the substance of the charge against Jesus is clear in all three occasions when "the Jews", not the Sanhedrin, decided, or actually tried, to kill Him during his ministry. Of these three occasions, only in the third is that charge given a name, which is precisely blasphemy:

1. This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (Jn 5:18)

2. Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (Jn 8:58-59)

3. (Jesus said) "I and the Father are one." The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." (Jn 10:30-33)"

Why was Jesus condemned for blasphemy by the Jews?

There is a lot of evidence that Christ is indeed Yahweh. This evidence is abundantly described in books and sermons by Richard B. Hays, New Testament scholar and George Washington Ivey Professor Emeritus of New Testament Duke Divinity School in Durham, North Carolina.

The issue is so obvious that it resulted in aberrant theology like that of Oneness Pentecostals. Even Mormons accept that Jesus is Yahweh, but they err in saying that God the Father is not Yahweh, thus separating them.

Of the Christians sects, only JW's and Unitarians do not accept this.
 
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You are ignoring the word "now" in the passage below, where the author of the Book of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 word-for-word. The OT text is in uppercase letters in the NKJV.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

-------------------------------------------------

(Search on the term "New Covenant" in the NKJV)


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (Written to the church at Corinth.)

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


.

*Sigh*. I am not denying we are under the New Covenant now. That happened at Christ’s death. However, the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:34 is a continuation of the New Covenant we are in. It will be during the time of the future Millennium because of the reasons that I mentioned before that you are ignoring. Anyways, this is not really the topic of discussion of this thread. The discussion of the OP is what are people’s reasons for rejecting the Trinity.
 
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While the translations you give for "Yahweh" are possible and promoted by modern Jews, "I am" is the better accepted translation that Jesus used and his hearers found to be blasphemous. Please study the following 3 incidents in your Bible:

"In John, the substance of the charge against Jesus is clear in all three occasions when "the Jews", not the Sanhedrin, decided, or actually tried, to kill Him during his ministry. Of these three occasions, only in the third is that charge given a name, which is precisely blasphemy:

1. This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (Jn 5:18)

2. Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (Jn 8:58-59)

3. (Jesus said) "I and the Father are one." The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?" The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." (Jn 10:30-33)"

Why was Jesus condemned for blasphemy by the Jews?

There is a lot of evidence that Christ is indeed Yahweh. This evidence is abundantly described in books and sermons by Richard B. Hays, New Testament scholar and George Washington Ivey Professor Emeritus of New Testament Duke Divinity School in Durham, North Carolina.

The issue is so obvious that it resulted in aberrant theology like that of Oneness Pentecostals. Even Mormons accept that Jesus is Yahweh, but they err in saying that God the Father is not Yahweh, thus separating them.

Of the Christians sects, only JW's and Unitarians do not accept this.

Modalists like the Oneness Pentecostals believe God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son, etc.; They don’t actually believe the distinct person of the Son actually exists. This kind of thinking is non-sense of course because the conversations between God the Father and the Son would be just play acting and not real. Also, they have to ignore that the Spirit can be blasphemed (i.e. by one speaking bad words against the Spirit) whereby they will never be forgiven, and yet this is not the case if the Son was blasphemed. So Modalists just make up their own version of God that is not in the Bible. I believe they do this for the same reason the Israelites made a golden calf (despite their experiencing God by the parting of the Red Sea, seeing the pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night leading them). They did not want to be patient in waiting upon the Lord any longer and so they created their own god(s) to get what they wanted.
 
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Neogaia777

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Both the Son and the Spirit were to "become" like the Father, which is what they always were always before Creation or before the fall of man, and is also what/where we all were before Creation and before the fall of man, so we all are destined to be and/or become in or by the very, very end...

But Two of them already have or did already I believe, the Son and the Spirit already, after the Son, etc, the rest are to follow in time...

Or at least the ones who were destined/predestined to be or become, etc...

As we all were in the beginning with God, so we all will be again, at the very end, etc...

Two have already done it first already though...

They knew this, which is why the "I AM" is "what I will (will) (to) be, or what I am to (cause to be) (to) become...

But They are the cause of all of the rest of causing to be and/or become later on, etc...

First cause, etc...

What they lost, what they forsook, full omniscience from the very beginning of all, to the very very ending of all, they now have back now, etc...

Now it's just merely waiting on a sequence of events for Them, etc, and for others to join and/or be like Them in time, etc...

The Spirit is here, has always been here, and the Son went away to where the Father is, and we are all now just waiting on Him/Them (Father and the Son) to return right now, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Both the Son and the Spirit were to "become" like the Father, which is what they always were always before Creation or before the fall of man, and is also what/where we all were before Creation and before the fall of man, so we all are destined to be and/or become in or by the very, very end...

But Two of them already have or did already I believe, the Son and the Spirit already, after the Son, etc, the rest are to follow in time...

Or at least the ones who were destined/predestined to be or become, etc...

As we all were in the beginning with God, so we all will be again, at the very end, etc...

Two have already done it first already though...

They knew this, which is why the "I AM" is "what I will (will) (to) be, or what I am to (cause to be) (to) become...

But They are the cause of all of the rest of causing to be and/or become later on, etc...

First cause, etc...

What they lost, what they forsook, full omniscience from the very beginning of all, to the very very ending of all, they now have back now, etc...

Now it's just merely waiting on a sequence of events for Them, etc, and for others to join and/or be like Them in time, etc...

The Spirit is here, has always been here, and the Son went away to where the Father is, and we are all now just waiting on Him/Them (Father and the Son) to return right now, etc...

God Bless!
The Spirit caused Jesus to be and/or become, and Jesus caused the Spirit to become, and now They are now/will be/already have, in time, will cause/already caused, the rest of us to be and/or become...

In time, etc...

God Bless!
 
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BABerean2

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*Sigh*. I am not denying we are under the New Covenant now. That happened at Christ’s death. However, the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:34 is a continuation of the New Covenant we are in. It will be during the time of the future Millennium because of the reasons that I mentioned before that you are ignoring. Anyways, this is not really the topic of discussion of this thread. The discussion of the OP is what are people’s reasons for rejecting the Trinity.

When is the Millennium?

Millennium Questions: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on the earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming?


Does an angel with a key open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why does the angel unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?

Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?

Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?

If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation chapter 11, where is the beast now?



Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (See the bodily resurrection of the two witnesses in Rev. chapter 11.)

Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?

John 5:24 (Spiritual)

John 5:27-30 The bodily resurrection and judgment of “all” the dead.


Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.


Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46 ?


What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?

Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?


Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15?


Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?


Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. How would mortals survive this fire?

Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?


Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?


What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:1-16?


Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?


What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief, in 2 Peter 3:1-13?


Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?



,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.





.------------------------------------------



Rev_9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(Based on
Revelation 1:20 the word "star" is used as a symbol of angels in the Revelation.)

Above we have a reference to an angel with the key to the bottomless pit, just like that in Revelation 20.


Rev_9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(The bottomless pit is opened in the verse above.)



Rev_9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

(Apollyon means "destroyer")
Above we have angels who are already in the bottomless pit.
Who is the head angel of the bottomless pit?


A summary of
Revelation 9 reveals an angel with a key to the bottomless pit, and he opens the bottomless pit. Why did the angel have to use the key to open the bottomless pit, unless it had been locked previously?

Is Satan the king of the wicked angels?

.................................................



Rev_11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(Here the beast comes up out of the pit to make war with the witnesses, who based on Revelation 11:4, and Revelation 1:20, and Romans 11, are a symbol of the Church.)


Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(Here we have the beast ascending out of the pit again, just like in Revelation 11. Once again, this proves the book is not in chronological order.)

Are humans found in the bottomless pit?

.
 
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When is the Millennium?

Millennium Questions: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on the earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming?


Does an angel with a key open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why does the angel unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?

Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?

Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?

If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation chapter 11, where is the beast now?



Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (See the bodily resurrection of the two witnesses in Rev. chapter 11.)

Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?

John 5:24 (Spiritual)

John 5:27-30 The bodily resurrection and judgment of “all” the dead.


Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.


Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46 ?


What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?

Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?


Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15?


Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?


Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. How would mortals survive this fire?

Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?


Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?


What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:1-16?


Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?


What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief, in 2 Peter 3:1-13?


Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?



,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.





.------------------------------------------



Rev_9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
(Based on
Revelation 1:20 the word "star" is used as a symbol of angels in the Revelation.)

Above we have a reference to an angel with the key to the bottomless pit, just like that in Revelation 20.


Rev_9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
(The bottomless pit is opened in the verse above.)



Rev_9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

(Apollyon means "destroyer")
Above we have angels who are already in the bottomless pit.
Who is the head angel of the bottomless pit?


A summary of
Revelation 9 reveals an angel with a key to the bottomless pit, and he opens the bottomless pit. Why did the angel have to use the key to open the bottomless pit, unless it had been locked previously?

Is Satan the king of the wicked angels?

.................................................



Rev_11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(Here the beast comes up out of the pit to make war with the witnesses, who based on Revelation 11:4, and Revelation 1:20, and Romans 11, are a symbol of the Church.)


Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(Here we have the beast ascending out of the pit again, just like in Revelation 11. Once again, this proves the book is not in chronological order.)

Are humans found in the bottomless pit?

.

This is not even remotely related to the topic of this thread.
Please stop spamming my thread with your continual non-stop focus on the End Times. The Bible is more than just about the End Times. The Bible is about Jesus, and in living for Him.
 
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BABerean2

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This is not even remotely related to the topic of this thread.
Please stop spamming my thread with your continual non-stop focus on the End Times.

You brought up the topic of the Millennium, instead of me.

And the Millennium is not just about the End Times.


Destroying Premillennialism in less than ten minutes:

.
 
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You brought up the topic of the Millennium, instead of me.

.

Are you unaware that Jeremiah 31:34 is interpreted differently than the way you interpret it? Did you not know that other Christians interpret that this is referring to the Millennium? If so, then your quote of Jeremiah 31:34 was intended to start an End Times discussion. But this thread is not even remotely related to discussing the End Times and you are posting large book length size posts in wanting to talk about that in this thread (When that is not the topic of this thread).

Anyways, you did not once address the topic of this thread. What are the motivations of a person rejecting the Trinity? Talking about something else is not really in line with the OP.
 
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BABerean2

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Are you unaware that Jeremiah 31:34 is interpreted differently than the way you interpret it?


Based on the verse below, the Messiah's death cannot be separated from the New Covenant fulfilled by His Blood.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


I am very aware that many modern Christians do not know the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant fulfilled by Christ's blood at Calvary.

Therefore, it is no wonder they do not understand the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of a New Covenant believer.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'


New Covenant: Bob George


.
 
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