What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

eleos1954 · Aug 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I think you took a step in the wrong thread, friend. This thread is in no way related to the Sabbath.

You mentioned it .... you said ...

When I speak of how we must obey God's laws: I am referring primarily to how we must obey those commands in the New Testament, and not the Old Testament. Things like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, the Passover, etc. are ceremonial laws that are no longer binding upon the life of the believer today under the New Covenant. We should focus on obeying those commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

and this is not so ..... The 7th day Sabbath is the 4th commandment of the 10 ... it is not a ceremonial law.

eleos1954 · Aug 14, 2021

Albion said:
They were Hebrews! But after Jesus founded his church (as he said), that stopped.

If that is correct to say, it explains why ordinary Hebrew religious practices would have been maintained UNTIL Christ was ready for the establishment of his church and the promotion of it to the whole world. There was a progression that was not complete until certain developments in Christ's life had been accomplished.

Jesus is ... was .... and will forever be God ... and no ... He said He is Lord of the Sabbath. Where does Jesus say He got rid of the 7th day Sabbath?

Bible Highlighter · Aug 14, 2021

eleos1954 said:
You mentioned it .... you said ...

and this is not so ..... The 7th day Sabbath is the 4th commandment of the 10 ... it is not a ceremonial law.

This is in my signature of each of my posts, and it is not content I brought up within the discussion of this thread.

Albion · Aug 14, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Jesus is ... was .... and will forever be God ... and no ... He said He is Lord of the Sabbath. Where does Jesus say He got rid of the 7th day Sabbath?

Who here has said that Jesus got rid of the 7th day Sabbath???

fhansen · Aug 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
What are the motivations or reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?

I am always fascinated behind the motivations behind why people believe they do. I can understand why some people might hold to various beliefs that I think are unbiblical, but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled. Why do they do this? For there are believers who do not understand the Trinity and yet they accept it by faith it is true (even when they don’t understand it). I admire them for that. For me: I guess I was blessed by the Lord to be able to understand the Trinity right away.

Well, first of all the concept of three being the same but different -one simple and indivisible God in three persons- just doesn't resonate as reasonable or logical to the rational mind right off the bat. And Scripture can seem contradictory on the matter at times. On top of that the idea of a man being God is just plain counter-intuitive, even seemingly blasphemous. But for myself after a point I just couldn't separate or distinguish Jesus from God-so I go with the "formula" arrived at by the Chruch back in the day. Seems wise...somehow.

Andrewn · Aug 14, 2021

fhansen said:
Well, first of all the concept of three being the same but different -one simple and indivisible God in three persons- just doesn't resonate as reasonable or logical to the rational mind right off the bat. And Scripture can seem contradictory on the matter at times.

Because the concept doesn't resonate as reasonable or logical, each Christian has a different picture in their mind about what this may be like. Some people may be thinking of 3 Gods in heaven:

Other picture an egg:

Actually, it may be interesting to ask Christians how they picture the Holy Trinity.

Neogaia777 · Aug 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
Thanks.

However, we find nothing in the NT to indicate any kind of inequality among them. What we find is
the close connection in the NT between Father and Son, Father and Spirit, and Son and Spirit pointing to a co-equal relationship; i.e.,

a) "The Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit". . .the Lord (Jesus) who is the Spirit (Ro1:7, 1Co 1:3, 2Co 1:2; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2,; Php 1:2; 1Th 1:1, 3:11; 2Th 1:2, 8, 12, 2:16, 3:5; Ro 8:27; Gal 4:6; 2Co 3:16-18).
The Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead. The Lord (Jesus) works in men through the Spirit; i.e., the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings.

b) The Father who will send the Spirit (Jn 14:26), as it was the Father who sent the Son (Jn 5:23, 36).
The Father will send the Spirit "in my name," as Jesus' deputy, doing Jesus' will, acting as his representative and with his authority (Jn 14:26).
As Jesus came in his Father's name (Jn 5:43), acting as his Father's agent, speaking the Father's words (Jn 12:49-50, 14:24), doing the Father's works (Jn 4:34, 5:36, 10:25; 17:4) and bearing witness throughout to the One who sent him,
so would the Spirit come in Jesus' name, to act in the world as the agent and witness of Jesus (Jn 15:26).
It is the Son who will send the Spirit "from the Father" (Jn 15:26).
As the Father sent the Spirit into the world, so the Son will send the Spirit into the world (Jn 16:7).
So the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father.

c) The Son is subject to the Father (for the Son is sent by the Father in the Father's name--Jn 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is subject to the Father (for the Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name--Jn 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as the Father (for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father--Jn 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

Likewise, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together as the triune name (singular) of God (Mt 28:19).
a) Paul uses all three interchangeably in 1Co 12:4-6,
b) they are linked in prayer for divine blessing in 2Co 13:14,
c) they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.

So Jesus shows three distinct and separate persons in revealing the mystery of the Trinity--the heart of the Christian faith in God.
That mystery is three separate and distinct Persons, and one God--the Son doing the will of the Father, and the Spirit doing the will of the Father and the Son.

The NT throughout presents the Son and Holy Spirit as divine agents, co-equal with the Father, but distinct, separate and personal (possessing personhood). Nowhere does the NT give us to understand that they are not divine, or are of an inferior nature to the Father. They are always presented as equals--in their nature, in their origin, in their work, in their power, in worship of them.
Always in the NT they are viewed as divine agents, possessing deity within themselves.

And while the NT shows three divine agents, it also shows only one God (Mk 12:29; 1Tim 2:5).
That is the gospel Jesus spells out to Nicodemus (Jn 3:1-21); viz., the combined action of the Triune God.

John 10:29, and John 14:28, the Father God is "greater than I am", and is "greater than all", including God the Spirit (who is God in the OT, and the Holy Spirit, and then, after the NT, and the Spirit of Christ, etc) for those two might have always been co-equal...

I am going away to where my Father always was and is, but I will not leave you as orphans, nor without any power, because now you can have God the Spirit helping you by living inside of you now, and that, until I return to where I did go/went to prepare places for you, for when I come back to get you at my second coming, etc...

Until then, you now have God the Spirit/Holy Spirit/God in the OT/Spirit of Christ, that was in me, Christ, and is now with you and in you now, the same as He was with me...

It's "plenty" to deal with anything in and/or of, and/or belonging to this world until I shall return...

God Bless!

fhansen · Aug 14, 2021

Andrewn said:
Because the concept doesn't resonate as reasonable or logical, each Christian has a different picture in their mind about what this may be like. Some people may be thinking of 3 Gods in heaven:

Other picture an egg:

Actually, it may be interesting to ask Christians how they picture the Holy Trinity.

This is the one I'm familiar with:

Bible Highlighter · Aug 14, 2021

fhansen said:
Well, first of all the concept of three being the same but different -one simple and indivisible God in three persons- just doesn't resonate as reasonable or logical to the rational mind right off the bat. And Scripture can seem contradictory on the matter at times. On top of that the idea of a man being God is just plain counter-intuitive, even seemingly blasphemous. But for myself after a point I just couldn't separate or distinguish Jesus from God-so I go with the "formula" arrived at by the Chruch back in the day. Seems wise...somehow.

I had no problems with understanding the Trinity and the more I studied it, the more it made more sense. The only issue I had was in understanding how Jesus had power as God and yet He grew in wisdom as a child. But I was able to resolve this with Scripture by intensive prayer and lots of intense research involving Scripture.

fhansen · Aug 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I had no problems with understanding the Trinity and the more I studied it, the more it made more sense. The only issue I had was in understanding how Jesus had power as God and yet He grew in wisdom as a child. But I was able to resolve this with Scripture by intensive prayer and lots of intense research involving Scripture.

Could you expound a bit on your understanding?

Soyeong · Aug 14, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
What are the motivations or reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?

Clearly, it must have been due to a bad analogy.

com7fy8 · Aug 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled.

And sandman said:
One point the Unitarians make, which has been proven true is …You cannot learn the trinity from the Bible... it must be taught to you.

So . . .

. . . we have people who claim the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity, while others claim it does not teach the Trinity.

In any case, the word "Trinity" is not in any Bible translation that I am aware of. Plus, when people use quotes of Jesus to say He says He is God . . . I find they interpret what He says to mean this. He does not say, "I am God the Son," for example, but interpretation has produced this. And Peter did not say, "You are God", but "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," in Matthew 16:16 and in John 6:69.

But yes Jesus says, "before Abraham was, I AM," in John 8:58. Note, that in the Greek interlinear, which I have, the "I AM" in Greek words is not capitalized. And Jesus does not obviously simply say, "I am God," anywhere.

But I trust we have plenty of scripture which shows He is God as God's Son; and for me it is simple > Jesus is God . . . divine . . . like how a child of a human is human just as much as the child's parents are human.

So, why does Jesus not make a more obvious point of saying, "I am God" in various messages and situations, then?

My opinion is Jesus knew how humans have been misrepresenting God . . . how God is, especially. So, Jesus was not interested in them giving Him just a label of "God", and then continue to represent Him so horribly. So, His objective is not merely to get some correct label, but for us to discover how God really is.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

fhansen said:
Could you expound a bit on your understanding?

Well, I struggled with trying to reconcile Jesus being God (knowing all things), and yet growing in wisdom (knowledge) as a child. The following below is what I have discovered as a resolution to this supposed contradiction.

Jesus Omniscience was Suppressed:

I believe Jesus only suppressed His divine attribute of "having all knowledge" or His "Omniscience" (Which took place sometime before the world came into being). This is what I believe the "glory" that Jesus spoke of that He wished to share in again with the Father before the world existed in John 17:5. For Habakkuk 2:14 says, "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Also see 2 Corinthians 4:6. For as Adam was limited in knowledge before the Fall, Christ being the last Adam (or like type figure) had to be similar to Adam so as to be our substitute.

Anyways, while I believe Jesus did works by the Father and the Holy Spirit, I also believe....

Jesus had power as God
(during His Earthly ministry):

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).

So while Jesus grew in wisdom as a child (with His Omniscience suppressed), our Lord surely had divine power as God as a part of His natural being during His earthly ministry (clearly demonstrating that He was fully and completely God).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

com7fy8 said:
So . . . . . . we have people who claim the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity, while others claim it does not teach the Trinity.

And the Israelites who seen the miracles of God like the parting of the Red Sea, etc. went to worshiping a false calf idol because they got impatient on waiting upon the true God. This is why I believe people reject the Trinity today. They are not getting what they want from the true God, so they seek out another god to their liking so as to fit their desires.

In any case, the word "Trinity" is not in any Bible translation that I am aware of.

In the King James Bible: The word “Godhead” is used instead so as to refer to the Trinity.
It is mentioned three times in the KJB.

You said:
Plus, when people use quotes of Jesus to say He says He is God . . . I find they interpret what He says to mean this. He does not say, "I am God the Son," for example, but interpretation has produced this. And Peter did not say, "You are God", but "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," in Matthew 16:16 and in John 6:69.

But yes Jesus says, "before Abraham was, I AM," in John 8:58. Note, that in the Greek interlinear, which I have, the "I AM" in Greek words is not capitalized. And Jesus does not obviously simply say, "I am God," anywhere.

But I trust we have plenty of scripture which shows He is God as God's Son; and for me it is simple > Jesus is God . . . divine . . . like how a child of a human is human just as much as the child's parents are human.

So, why does Jesus not make a more obvious point of saying, "I am God" in various messages and situations, then?

Actually, John 1:1 says that the Word WAS God, and the Word was WITH God.
The apostle John wrote this verse.
And Jesus said, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So John was testifying on behalf of the witness of Christ.
But why didn’t Jesus declare He was God openly?

Because of things like this happening:

“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,” (John 10:31-39).

And because of this:

“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” (Philippians 2:7-8).

Strong in Him · Aug 15, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
John 10:29, and John 14:28, the Father God is "greater than I am", and is "greater than all", including God the Spirit (who is God in the OT, and the Holy Spirit, and then, after the NT, and the Spirit of Christ, etc) for those two might have always been co-equal...

Jesus was 100% human while he was on earth; as such, he submitted to his Father.
He came as a human and identified with humans. Had he walked around saying "I am God" I doubt anyone would have believed in him, may have wanted to lock him up and he would not have been able to fulfil his ministry. Jews believed that looking upon God meant death; how could they have accepted Jesus' self claims to divinity?

Of course, he was 100% divine too, but that's the mystery; how he was able to be both.

sandman · Aug 15, 2021

com7fy8 said:
So . . . . . . we have people who claim the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity, while others claim it does not teach the Trinity.

In any case, the word "Trinity" is not in any Bible translation that I am aware of. Plus, when people use quotes of Jesus to say He says He is God . . . I find they interpret what He says to mean this. He does not say, "I am God the Son," for example, but interpretation has produced this. And Peter did not say, "You are God", but "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," in Matthew 16:16 and in John 6:69.

But yes Jesus says, "before Abraham was, I AM," in John 8:58. Note, that in the Greek interlinear, which I have, the "I AM" in Greek words is not capitalized. And Jesus does not obviously simply say, "I am God," anywhere.

But I trust we have plenty of scripture which shows He is God as God's Son; and for me it is simple > Jesus is God . . . divine . . . like how a child of a human is human just as much as the child's parents are human.

So, why does Jesus not make a more obvious point of saying, "I am God" in various messages and situations, then?

My opinion is Jesus knew how humans have been misrepresenting God . . . how God is, especially. So, Jesus was not interested in them giving Him just a label of "God", and then continue to represent Him so horribly. So, His objective is not merely to get some correct label, but for us to discover how God really is.

Well put…..

Just a question for thought: We know that Jesus did not claim to be God ….Heck …the Pharisees were torqued enough at him for claiming to be the Son of God.. If He had said He was God …the Pharisees and everyone else would have dismissed him immediately………But…..

Why not declare it when giving revelation to Paul ….possibly in one of the doctrinal epistles ..Rom or Eph ….it would have been 30 years after the ascension and could have been slipped in almost anywhere …like Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Or since the trinity is referenced as a mystery …”that we can’t understand or totally grasp”…it could have been revealed…. just as the mystery (divine secret) of the one body was revealed. It certainly wouldn’t have been any tougher for the Jews to accept than putting the Gentiles (who were dogs) on the same level as Gods chosen.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

sandman said:
Well put…..

Just a question for thought: We know that Jesus did not claim to be God ….Heck …the Pharisees were torqued enough at him for claiming to be the Son of God.. If He had said He was God …the Pharisees and everyone else would have dismissed him immediately………But…..

Why not declare it when giving revelation to Paul ….possibly in one of the doctrinal epistles ..Rom or Eph ….it would have been 30 years after the ascension and could have been slipped in almost anywhere …like Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father who is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Or since the trinity is referenced as a mystery …”that we can’t understand or totally grasp”…it could have been revealed…. just as the mystery (divine secret) of the one body was revealed. It certainly wouldn’t have been any tougher for the Jews to accept than putting the Gentiles (who were dogs) on the same level as Gods chosen.

Actually, the Jews thought a couple of times that Jesus was claiming to be God.

Here is one example:

“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,” (John 10:31-39).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 15, 2021

Soyeong said:
Clearly, it must have been due to a bad analogy.

A true truth seeking Christian is going to look to God’s Word for the truth on this to determine how God really is. Truth is ultimately determined by God’s Word and not in analogies. So if somebody rejects the truth of the Trinity in God’s Word based on a wrong analogy alone, they are placing their faith in the wrong thing. I believe people reject the Trinity because of the same reason the Israelites had made a golden calf (despite their seeing the great miracles of GOD like the parting of the Red Sea, etc.). The Israelites at that time simply no longer wanted to wait upon the One true God, but they wanted to serve their own gods or God to get what they wanted.

There are many ways people can reject God. Others can reject God by not believing His Words in obeying Him and by their justifying sin. They no doubt do this because sin offers a temporary pleasure.

Strong in Him · Aug 15, 2021

sandman said:
Well put…..

Just a question for thought: We know that Jesus did not claim to be God ….

Not directly, but the Pharisees knew he was claiming to be God, John 10:32.
Jesus also used God's name - "I AM" as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Exodus 3:14, John 6:35, John 8:58, John 10:11, John 11:25.
Jesus did not rebuke Thomas who declared Jesus to be God, John 20:28.

sandman said:
Heck …the Pharisees were torqued enough at him for claiming to be the Son of God.. If He had said He was God …the Pharisees and everyone else would have dismissed him immediately………

They did, pretty much.
When Jesus cast out demons, the Pharisees said he was doing it by the power of the devil, Mark 3:22, they said that only God could forgive sins, Mark 2:7, they tried to stone him for blasphemy and eventually had him crucified for that reason.

sandman said:
Why not declare it when giving revelation to Paul ….possibly in one of the doctrinal epistles ..

Paul knew that Jesus was, and is, God. When he saw the bright light on the road to Damascus he said "who are you Lord?" and had the answer, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."
He wrote;
"who being in very nature God", Philippians 2:5.
"He is the image of the invisible God ... for by him, all things were created", Colossians 1:16.

sandman said:
Or since the trinity is referenced as a mystery …”that we can’t understand or totally grasp”…it could have been revealed…. just as the mystery (divine secret) of the one body was revealed. It certainly wouldn’t have been any tougher for the Jews to accept than putting the Gentiles (who were dogs) on the same level as Gods chosen.

I think it would.
They didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah, never mind as God. I don't know what they believed about the Holy Spirit, but it doesn't sound like they would have accepted that he, and Jesus, were both divine, both one with God, yet there was only one God.

Andrewn · Aug 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I struggled with trying to reconcile Jesus being God (knowing all things), and yet growing in wisdom (knowledge) as a child. The following below is what I have discovered as a resolution to this supposed contradiction.

1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Luk 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Benson Commentary
Luke 2:52. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature — In the perfections of his divine nature there could be no increase; but this is spoken of his human nature, consisting of a reasonable soul and human flesh; his body increased in stature and bulk, and his soul in wisdom and in all the endowments of a human spirit. It received distinct and gradual illuminations as he advanced in years: for though the eternal Word was united to his human soul from his birth, or even conception, yet the divinity that dwelt in him manifested itself to his humanity by degrees, ad modum recipientis, as that humanity was capable of receiving those manifestations; and as the faculties of his human soul opened more and more, larger communications of knowledge, wisdom, and other gifts were made to it. And he increased in favour with God and man — That is, in all those graces that rendered him acceptable both to God and man.

What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

God is Love

God is Love

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Facilitator

Oldbie

Well-Known Member

Old Soul

Oldbie

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Oldbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Great is thy faithfulness

Senior Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Great is thy faithfulness

Well-Known Member

Similar threads