Dormition of the Theotokos (Aug 15)

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Apolytikion (First Tone)
In birth, you preserved your virginity; in death, you did not abandon the world, O Theotokos. As mother of life, you departed to the source of life, delivering our souls from death by your intercessions.

Kontakion (Second Tone)
Neither the grave nor death could contain the Theotokos, the unshakable hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection. As Mother of life, He who dwelt in the ever-virginal womb transposed her to life.

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The Liturgist

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It amazes me that some people don’t believe this happened, considering the Theotokos was surely at least as deserving, and really more deserving, of bodily assumption, than St. Elijah, and of the major saints of the New Testament, she is the only one where we do not have any relics of her body. We have the head of St. Mark, and fragments of the Apostles, and part of the skull of St. John the Baptist. If the Theotokos had been left on Earth after her repose and had not been taken up, her bodily relics would surely be sitting in reliquaries in cathedrals across the world. Instead, we only have relics of items she came into contact with.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Regardless of whether one accepts or believes in the assumption (Scripture is silent regarding this) Mary is in Heaven. What we do know is that Mary is important because the Bible tells us so much about her. Therefore we should commemorate her, and since there is a historic record of the Church doing so, we should continue to do so. In doing so, we not only mark the Dormition, but we also celebrate the Annunciation and the Visitation.

If you are interested, here is how our Lutheran Congregation marked the Feast of St. Mary, Mother of our Lord this past August 15th; our Chanting is rusty since this is the very first sung liturgy since the first wave of Covid. BTW, I am serving as Deacon:

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The Liturgist

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Regardless of whether one accepts or believes in the assumption (Scripture is silent regarding this) Mary is in Heaven. What we do know is that Mary is important because the Bible tells us so much about her. Therefore we should commemorate her, and since there is a historic record of the Church doing so, we should continue to do so. In doing so, we not only mark the Dormition, but we also celebrate the Annunciation and the Visitation.

If you are interested, here is how our Lutheran Congregation marked the Feast of St. Mary, Mother of our Lord this past August 15th; our Chanting is rusty since this is the very first sung liturgy since the first wave of Covid. BTW, I am serving as Deacon:

Log into Facebook

Oh this is amazing! I’ve been seriously wanting to visit your church based on your descriptions of your liturgical praxis, and of course that’s frustratingly difficult right now due to the virus, although not impossible, but your streaming your services with chant is brilliant. And you did a splendid job as Deacon.

Out of curiosity, are there any non-LCMS or predominantly Scandinavian LCMS parishes in existence that you would describe as Evangelical Catholic? I’ve been reading up on high church Lutheranism, and the Church of Sweden in particular stands out as having a particularly evangelical catholic tendency, although the Danish church has interesting liturgical quirks, for example, the ruffled collars worn by senior clergy instead of preaching tabs or the clerical collar* and there is a large amount of ancient iconography in churches in Denmark, such as the stunning round churches in Bornholm, and also in certain areas of Sweden, including but not limited to the historically Danish region of Scania. And the service books I have from the predominantly Swedish Augustana Synod have a very high church feel to them (as well as the 1959 Lutheran Service Book and Hymnal, which I believe was the first to feature the Litany of Peace, which is in your exquisite Lutheran Service Book, and I believe you indicated you use that litany at Compline on Christmas Eve), and unfortunately the Augustana Synod got swallowed up into the ELCA which would have spoiled everything liturgically by now (the Green Book hymnal is tolerable, although not as good as the vintage hymnals of the denominations that had merged together, but the new ELCA hymnal from 2006 I can’t even stand to read due to liberalism (unlike the 2009 PCUSA hymnal), and I haven’t seen what the NALC is doing, but I would fear traditional services being of the low church variety and scarce, because one unpleasant aspect of the breakup of the mainline denominations is a tendency for the conservative parishes to be more low church and into praise and worship music, with notable exceptions, for example, the majority of Continuing Anglican churches. There is also the ELC, which is of predominantly Norwegian descent, which has remained independent, but I have no idea what their worship is like, and the Church of Norway was part of the Swedish church for a long time; the main liturgical attractions are the surviving Stave Churches, and I visited one (which had been restored following an arson attack by a Neo Nazi) while in Bergen in 2001, and it was amazingly beautiful.

*Would I look, in a North American context, silly, if I wore preaching tabs instead of my clerical collar? I have been contemplating such a change; there is a Hungarian Reformed Church in Los Angeles which is associated with a small conservative group in my former denomination called Faithful and Welcoming (which is ever shrinking due to departures from the denomination and a lack of conservative seminary graduates receiving standing in the denomination, which is equivalent to colloquy in WELS and I believe other Lutheran denominations), where the pastor wears beautiful green preaching tabs of a rounded design.
 
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The Liturgist

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Regardless of whether one accepts or believes in the assumption (Scripture is silent regarding this) Mary is in Heaven. What we do know is that Mary is important because the Bible tells us so much about her. Therefore we should commemorate her, and since there is a historic record of the Church doing so, we should continue to do so. In doing so, we not only mark the Dormition, but we also celebrate the Annunciation and the Visitation.

If you are interested, here is how our Lutheran Congregation marked the Feast of St. Mary, Mother of our Lord this past August 15th; our Chanting is rusty since this is the very first sung liturgy since the first wave of Covid. BTW, I am serving as Deacon:

Log into Facebook

By the way, do you upload your services to YouTube? I find the experience of watching streaming services on YouTube is more enjoyable, and I catalogue services I like and church music I like into a series of playlists, which now have quite a lot of content on them. But I also understand the convenience of streaming onto facebook for easier connection with more of your members.

The reason why I believe in the Dormition (which is to say, I believe that the Theotokos died, but her body was then taken up) is the lack of relics of her body, but it is not a widely held belief among Protestants, and I don’t dare mention in it in my annual service commemorating Mary (which is on the first Saturday and Sunday nearest or inclusive of August 28th, and so I will be doing it this afternoon, which is August 15th on the Julian Calendar; this is to provide a gap between Transfiguration and The Commemoration of St. Mary, and also to increase attendance at the latter service).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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By the way, do you upload your services to YouTube? I find the experience of watching streaming services on YouTube is more enjoyable, and I catalogue services I like and church music I like into a series of playlists, which now have quite a lot of content on them. But I also understand the convenience of streaming onto facebook for easier connection with more of your members.

The reason why I believe in the Dormition (which is to say, I believe that the Theotokos died, but her body was then taken up) is the lack of relics of her body, but it is not a widely held belief among Protestants, and I don’t dare mention in it in my annual service commemorating Mary (which is on the first Saturday and Sunday nearest or inclusive of August 28th, and so I will be doing it this afternoon, which is August 15th on the Julian Calendar; this is to provide a gap between Transfiguration and The Commemoration of St. Mary, and also to increase attendance at the latter service).
Yes, we do post them, both on youtube and on our congregations website. I will send links.

Conservative, liturgical Synods would be the Mission Diocese of Finland, Mission Province of Sweden. The ALC is in fellowship with the LCMS, so will use LSB, but not sure how high/low they are.

The Ruff Collar in Denmark and some German congregations is by Royal Decree, and was an honor bestowed by a monarch in days gone by. Why our Confessions speak of "all the usual vestments" that would be dictated by local (regional) custom.

I won't lie, there was some controversy regarding my wearing a cotta two Sundays ago, and the somewhat "High" service compared to the norm through covid; but there was also a lot of positive feed back... Wait until we roll out the fiddle-back chasuble for Pastor, and matching tunicle for the deacon LOL.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, we do post them, both on youtube and on our congregations website. I will send links.

Conservative, liturgical Synods would be the Mission Diocese of Finland, Mission Province of Sweden. The ALC is in fellowship with the LCMS, so will use LSB, but not sure how high/low they are.

The Ruff Collar in Denmark and some German congregations is by Royal Decree, and was an honor bestowed by a monarch in days gone by. Why our Confessions speak of "all the usual vestments" that would be dictated by local (regional) custom.

I won't lie, there was some controversy regarding my wearing a cotta two Sundays ago, and the somewhat "High" service compared to the norm through covid; but there was also a lot of positive feed back... Wait until we roll out the fiddle-back chasuble for Pastor, and matching tunicle for the deacon LOL.

Just to be clear I don’t propose to wear a Ruff Collar, but I am thinking of Preaching Tabs, which Congregationalists and John Wesley are famous for, which were replaced in most places by the clerical collar, ironically invented by a Presbyterian minister.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, we do post them, both on youtube and on our congregations website. I will send links.

Conservative, liturgical Synods would be the Mission Diocese of Finland, Mission Province of Sweden. The ALC is in fellowship with the LCMS, so will use LSB, but not sure how high/low they are.

The Ruff Collar in Denmark and some German congregations is by Royal Decree, and was an honor bestowed by a monarch in days gone by. Why our Confessions speak of "all the usual vestments" that would be dictated by local (regional) custom.

I won't lie, there was some controversy regarding my wearing a cotta two Sundays ago, and the somewhat "High" service compared to the norm through covid; but there was also a lot of positive feed back... Wait until we roll out the fiddle-back chasuble for Pastor, and matching tunicle for the deacon LOL.

Do you know anything about the Evangelical Lutheran Church, ELDONA, or the Protest-Ants?
 
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Just to be clear I don’t propose to wear a Ruff Collar, but I am thinking of Preaching Tabs, which Congregationalists and John Wesley are famous for, which were replaced in most places by the clerical collar, ironically invented by a Presbyterian minister.
A lot of German Lutherans wear these as well.
 
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TheNorwegian

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The Church of Norway was part of the Swedish church for a long time;

This is not correct. The Church's own website even says: Even during the Norway's political union with Sweden, the Church of Norway was not much influenced by the Churhc of Sweden ("i løpet av de neste hundre år med svensk-norsk union ble ikke Den norske kirke i særlig grad ble påvirket av Den svenske kirke.")
Vår historie
 
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The Liturgist

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This is not correct. The Church's own website even says: Even during the Norway's political union with Sweden, the Church of Norway was not much influenced by the Churhc of Sweden ("i løpet av de neste hundre år med svensk-norsk union ble ikke Den norske kirke i særlig grad ble påvirket av Den svenske kirke.")
Vår historie

Indeed, that was an error on my part; I was confused about the influence of the Swedish-Norwegian political union under the Swedish monarchy after Norway regained independence of Denmark. I was rereading my books on the history of the Lutheran churches today and realized my error.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is not correct. The Church's own website even says: Even during the Norway's political union with Sweden, the Church of Norway was not much influenced by the Churhc of Sweden ("i løpet av de neste hundre år med svensk-norsk union ble ikke Den norske kirke i særlig grad ble påvirket av Den svenske kirke.")
Vår historie

By the way, the Church of Norway, in addition to the Stave Churches, has some stunning cathedrals. This one makes me regret I only spent a few hours in Trondheim in 2000 after taking the train through Hell* from Oostersund, on my way to Oslo:

Die_Nidaros_Kathedrale_in_Trondheim._02.jpg


*A Norwegian town near the Swedish frontier, which features an old, disused but preserved Cargo Shipping office, which amusingly in Norwegian is “Gods Expedition.” So the English traveller also gets a reminder of the traditional doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell when passing through this beautiful town in the lush forests of the Norwegian mountains below the treeline. Of course, Finnmark, which I have visited, is not particularly verdant, nor is the water ideal for swimming, but as arctic seasides go I do infinitely prefer it to Barrow, Alaska.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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If Mary is in heaven then wouldn't that imply that the Assumption is true? Do souls go to heaven or are they still in Sheol?
Regardless of whether one accepts or believes in the assumption (Scripture is silent regarding this) Mary is in Heaven. What we do know is that Mary is important because the Bible tells us so much about her. Therefore we should commemorate her, and since there is a historic record of the Church doing so, we should continue to do so. In doing so, we not only mark the Dormition, but we also celebrate the Annunciation and the Visitation.

If you are interested, here is how our Lutheran Congregation marked the Feast of St. Mary, Mother of our Lord this past August 15th; our Chanting is rusty since this is the very first sung liturgy since the first wave of Covid. BTW, I am serving as Deacon:

Log into Facebook
 
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chevyontheriver

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If Mary is in heaven then wouldn't that imply that the Assumption is true? Do souls go to heaven or are they still in Sheol?
The Assumption is the assumption of the physical body of Mary and not just her soul. Consider the lack of relics of her body. Plenty of saints have left lots of relics behind. The early Church was a bit relic crazy. So we could expect that if there was a body there would be a crazy proliferation of relics. But nobody has a first degree relic of Mary.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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I'm sorry for the confusion. I was addressing Mark. I think he's a Lutheran. I have heard some Lutherans and some Orthodox say that the saints are still in Sheol (Abraham's bosom), but Mary, Elijah, Moses, Enoch ect are in heaven bc they have bodies. I was trying to get clarification on that. My apologies.
The Assumption is the assumption of the physical body of Mary and not just her soul. Consider the lack of relics of her body. Plenty of saints have left lots of relics behind. The early Church was a bit relic crazy. So we could expect that if there was a body there would be a crazy proliferation of relics. But nobody has a first degree relic of Mary.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'm sorry for the confusion. I was addressing Mark. I think he's a Lutheran. I have heard some Lutherans and some Orthodox say that the saints are still in Sheol (Abraham's bosom), but Mary, Elijah, Moses, Enoch ect are in heaven bc they have bodies. I was trying to get clarification on that. My apologies.
I await seeing what they might say.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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If Mary is in heaven then wouldn't that imply that the Assumption is true? Do souls go to heaven or are they still in Sheol?
I await seeing what they might say.

The Revelation of St. John shows us the souls of the saints under the altar, and they are crying out "how long" (to the resurrection). They are conscious, not sleeping.

Note also the transfiguration, both Moses and Elijah appeard in their bodies. Elijah was carried to heaven in a chariot of fire; Moses died, but the devil wanted his body; an angel took his body (to heaven).

Lots of Lutherans will deny the assumption, but doctrinally belief in the assumption is a traditional belief, not really supported by Scripture, but not denied by it either; therefore you are free to accept the Assumption; hold that it is possible, or deny it. Most would fall in the middle. The Church in it's calendar still marks the traditional date, and if you commemorate either the Assumption or the Dormition on that date you honor God, our Lord Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of our Lord.
 
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