Don't Judge Me!

aiki · Aug 13, 2021

John 7:24
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

There are segments of the Christian community who have taken up the notion that Christians ought not to judge each other - or anyone, for that matter. It's unloving, you see. Intolerant. Arrogant. Of course, when one Christian says to another, "Hey, you shouldn't be judging me!" that Christian is doing the very thing they are objecting to in the conduct of their fellow Christians. Funny how that works, eh? This is because one cannot be a thinking person, choosing between beliefs, forming preferences, and evaluating circumstances for danger, benefit, etc. without making judgements. When Bob decides he'd much prefer a chocolate sundae to a strawberry one, he has judged between the two options and come down on the side of chocolate; when Mary chooses to date Harold instead of Buck, finding Harold more to her liking, she has made a judgment between the two men; when Charles carries a sign at a Pro-Life rally rightly opposing baby murder, he has correctly judged such murder an evil and worth protesting. And so on. Judging between things is an essential to living, really, so to forbid it is just, well, silly - and lands you in the awkward position of being guilty of judging when you forbid it.

What Scripture actually prohibits in the matter of judging is doing so hypocritically. See Romans 2:1-3. Jesus expressly warned against this sort of thing:

Matthew 7:1-5 (NASB)
1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Did you notice in verse 5 that Jesus assumes that once one is not guilty of hypocritical judgment, one will then act to remove the speck from the eye of one's brother? So, don't be a liar, criticizing others for their lying; don't be an adulterer and deride another about their inappropriate content addiction; don't be running around telling others they ought not to be judging. Instead, when you've sorted out your own lying, repenting of it fully, you've will have important things to say to other liars about getting free of lying; when you've dealt with the sin of adultery in your own life before God, forsaking it totally, you'll have solid ground upon which to stand in calling it evil in the lives of others; when you realize that you have become a judge of those you criticize for judging and so leave off such criticism, you'll be able to help other don't-judge-me types to see their hypocrisy. And so on.

What most Christians resent about judging is condemnation. They dislike it when brothers and sisters in Christ point at each other and in their judgments of each other consign each other to irretrievable reprobation and to hell (the former naturally preceding the latter). Is it unavoidable, though, when saying to someone, "What you did was morally wrong. It was sin and you ought not to have done it," that you condemn them to a state of unalterable wickedness and deserving of permanent ostracization? No. It's entirely possible to condemn a person's behaviour while acknowledging that they can change, that they can do better in the future. This happens frequently in the various letters constituting the New Testament. Read Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. Yikes! He goes to town on them, judging their behaviour very severely! Chapter 5 is a real jaw-dropper for many modern, don't-judge-me "Christians." Peter, too, has some spicy things to say about false teachers. (See 2 Peter 2.) But both men are assuming that their readers will act better, righteously, and not continue in sin or fall prey to deceitful, carnal doctrines. Judgment, then, does not necessitate condemnation.

Some Christians (in the West, anyway), though, still want to prohibit all judgment, ostensibly to avoid unloving condemnation of others but, really, it often seems to me, simply because they live in a mind-your-own-business culture and live fairly morally and spiritually-compromised lives. Such compromise is increasingly common among modern, western Christians, affluence and ease helping along such compromise enormously. And so, the idea of any believer pointing at another and saying, "Hey, that's wrong!" or "That's sin, what you're doing," is rather horrifying. The assumption among the compromised being, of course, that everyone is likewise compromised, and so they are safe from criticism and judgment from their fellow Christians. Implicit in their condemnation of "judginess," is that no one really lives a holy, God-honoring life and so no one is ever in any position to make critical comments about the moral/spiritual choices of others.

Satan, of course, laughs at this state of affairs, knowing it effectively mutes the voice of the Church on moral issues. There's nothing more helpful to the devil than to have the Church afraid to say that anyone within its ranks is doing anything immoral, or teaching anything false, or has grown tepid in their love for the Lord.

So, go ahead, judge. Yourself first and most stringently and then, in love and truth, the Body of Believers, working to remove "the leaven that leavens the whole lump," confronting sin within the Bride of Christ, the Church, so that it might one day stand before God pure and lovely in His eyes, and serve as a powerful, holy force for Him in the world.

2 Timothy 4:1-2
1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

TheWhat? · Aug 13, 2021

I have a couple of comments on the subject, if I may.

There are definite rules for resolving problems. If those are neglected, it certainly cannot be considered righteous judgment. And, I don't think judging should be a hobby. Where it becomes a hobby it makes us to be more and more like Jesus' adversaries, trying to find fault, looking to gain an advantage over our neighbor, and that would not be in accord with the standard we seek to use against the other. That's not a good place to be for obvious reasons. As a result there are some communities I would never point a sinner to to find salvation. It wouldn't be good for them.

And, we are supposed to mind our own business (1Th 4:11, Lev 19:16).

mama2one · Aug 14, 2021

Question-

when one offers help to someone be it clothing, food, money, etc,
are they in the back of their mind wondering why does this person need help, what went wrong?

by offering help, are they in some small way judging?

returntosender · Aug 14, 2021

This whole thread looks like a judgment to me and that is my judgment.

Rescued One · Aug 14, 2021

Making decisions, criticizing or judging --- which is it and when is it okay?

Acts 26 NIV
9 “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the Lord’s people in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.

TzephanYahu · Aug 14, 2021

Hi @aiki, this is a wise post. I believe you've spoken correctly on the matter. Many hide behind the "don't judge me" shield. But what will they do in the end when facing the great judge?

I'd rather be judged and correcred now by my brothers than face it all later when there is no more time to correct.

Jesus is my Superhero · Aug 14, 2021

Without judging fellow church goers the risk exists of completely corrupting that church.
We do not live our lives on a level playing field. As an example; If a rotten apple in a bushel of apples isn't promptly removed it will spread rot to all adjoining apples until the whole bushel is rotten. But never, can a good apple placed in a bushel of rotten apples change a rotten apple to be edible.

(An agricultural example, like so many found within the pages of the bible).

aiki · Aug 14, 2021

TheWhat? said:
I have a couple of comments on the subject, if I may.

There are definite rules for resolving problems. If those are neglected, it certainly cannot be considered righteous judgment.

Matthew 18:15-17 is very important. It's a path to reconciliation, first, I think, not condemnation and separation.

TheWhat? said:
And, I don't think judging should be a hobby.

It's hard to make judging others a hobby when one's judging must begin first and most severely with oneself.

TheWhat? said:
And, we are supposed to mind our own business (1Th 4:11, Lev 19:16).

Yes, we are to mind our own business AND also the affairs of those to whom God has linked us as "members one of another," and whose sin within the Body of Believers has the effect of "leavening the whole lump."

aiki · Aug 16, 2021

Old Lady said:
Making decisions, criticizing or judging --- which is it and when is it okay?

Acts 26 NIV
9 “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the Lord’s people in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.

This is the same Paul who wrote a castigating letter to the Corinthians and instructed Timothy to "reprove, rebuke, exhort" fellow Christians. Yes, Paul was in terrible error in his persecution of Christians, but he didn't let this stop him as an apostle of the Early Church from casting out from the Corinthian fellowship the man willfully sinning sexually with his step-mother. (1 Corinthians 5), or rebuking sharply those Roman believers who were guilty of hypocritically judging others (Romans 2), or challenging the drift of the Galatian Christians toward the false doctrine of the Judaizers (Galatians 3).

The big problem many modern Christians have, it seems to me, anyway, is with pointed, personal criticism. Take the pastor who condemns gluttony from the pulpit, for example, who teaches that loading layers of fat onto one's body dishonors God and brings the Christian faith into disrepute. Hoo-whee! The obese Christians who would cheer the pastor calling out adulterers, or gossips, or the hateful absolutely rage at any suggestion that their grossly-fat bodies are the result of living that ought to be condemned. The problem, I think, is that there is no way to hide this particular lack of Spirit-control. The enormously fat man with the nearly-bursting shirt and pants, waddling around, wheezing and sweating, has no way to pretend his eating habits are under God's control. But woe betide anyone who suggests that this is so!

The Church has come to accept certain kinds of sin, to ignore them, at least, lest anyone feel ashamed. For some reason (I think it's the by-product of relativism/moral subjectivism infecting the Church), the comfort of the person has become the highest good in the Christian community. And few things make a person more uncomfortable than being told they are guilty of sin. So, talk of sin, judging this or that behavior as morally-wrong, has to go. And this cessation of moral evaluations is fortified by accusations of legalism leveled against those who make such evaluations. Love is the thing; not heartless criticism. None of us is perfect, so we should all just shut-up about the sin in the life of the next person. That person with the food addiction, made grotesque in their physical form by their lack of Spirit-control, their arteries inflamed by sugar and clogged by cholesterol, afflicted by diabetes, kidneys failing, feet gangrenous, is shown love best by the rest of us pretending his addiction isn't destroying him. In fact, Christians will commiserate with such a man over his failing health, encouraging the idea that he is a victim of his circumstance rather than reaping the corruption of his willful choice to sin. (Galatians 6:7)

Anyway, we make decisions all the time and pretty reflexively, too. If those decisions lead us into sin, however, they ought to fall under the condemnation of fellow believers. That's condemnation of the choice to sin, not of the sinner. This criticism of sinful choices is always appropriate, when offered in a spirit of love, free from hypocrisy and in defense of the Body that is so susceptible to the "leavening" of sin. Such criticism requires that believers constantly judge the moral rightness of their own living (and that of fellow believers). So, decision-making, criticism and judging are all entangled with each other, over-lapping and entwining very naturally, it seems to me.

What do you think?

Rescued One · Aug 16, 2021

aiki said:
This is the same Paul who wrote a castigating letter to the Corinthians and instructed Timothy to "reprove, rebuke, exhort" fellow Christians. Yes, Paul was in terrible error in his persecution of Christians, but he didn't let this stop him as an apostle of the Early Church from casting out from the Corinthian fellowship the man willfully sinning sexually with his step-mother. (1 Corinthians 5), or rebuking sharply those Roman believers who were guilty of hypocritically judging others (Romans 2), or challenging the drift of the Galatian Christians toward the false doctrine of the Judaizers (Galatians 3).

The big problem many modern Christians have, it seems to me, anyway, is with pointed, personal criticism. Take the pastor who condemns gluttony from the pulpit, for example, who teaches that loading layers of fat onto one's body dishonors God and brings the Christian faith into disrepute. Hoo-whee! The obese Christians who would cheer the pastor calling out adulterers, or gossips, or the hateful absolutely rage at any suggestion that their grossly-fat bodies are the result of living that ought to be condemned. The problem, I think, is that there is no way to hide this particular lack of Spirit-control. The enormously fat man with the nearly-bursting shirt and pants, waddling around, wheezing and sweating, has no way to pretend his eating habits are under God's control. But woe betide anyone who suggests that this is so!

The Church has come to accept certain kinds of sin, to ignore them, at least, lest anyone feel ashamed. For some reason (I think it's the by-product of relativism/moral subjectivism infecting the Church), the comfort of the person has become the highest good in the Christian community. And few things make a person more uncomfortable than being told they are guilty of sin. So, talk of sin, judging this or that behavior as morally-wrong, has to go. And this cessation of moral evaluations is justified by accusations of legalism leveled against those who make such evaluations. Love is the thing; not heartless criticism. None of us is perfect, so we should all just shut-up about the sin in the life of the next person. That person with the food addiction, made grotesque in their physical form by their lack of Spirit-control, their arteries inflamed and clogged by cholesterol, afflicted by diabetes, kidneys failing, feet gangrenous, is shown love best by the rest of us pretending his addiction isn't destroying him. In fact, Christians will commiserate with such a man over his failing health, encouraging the idea that he is a victim of his circumstance rather than reaping the corruption of his willful choice to sin. (Galatians 6:7)

Anyway, we make decisions all the time and pretty reflexively, too. If those decisions lead us into sin, however, they ought to fall under the condemnation of fellow believers. That's condemnation of the choice to sin, not of the sinner. This criticism of sinful choices is always appropriate, when offered in a spirit of love, free from hypocrisy and in defense of the Body that is so susceptible to the "leavening" of sin. Such criticism requires that believers constantly judge the moral rightness of their own living (and that of fellow believers). So, decision-making, criticism and judging are all entangled with each other, over-lapping and entwining very naturally, it seems to me.

What do you think?

I think we don't know a non-Christian from a Christian or who is still in the process of being sanctified or is just a hypocrite in a church. Which denomination is the modern church you're talking about?

Are obese people allowed to become Christians? :scratch:

Rescued One · Aug 16, 2021

aiki said:
This is the same Paul who wrote a castigating letter to the Corinthians and instructed Timothy to "reprove, rebuke, exhort" fellow Christians.

Being overweight shows, but how many thin people have refrained from adultery and/or greed? What causes a person to be overweight from childhood? Why would a well-dressed woman, say , "How will she attract anyone to Christ in those clothes and not wearing any make-up?"

mama2one · Aug 17, 2021

mama2one · Aug 17, 2021

mama2one · Aug 17, 2021

Aussie Pete · Aug 17, 2021

mama2one said:
at one Christian women's retreat, a skinny person was behind me in food line
she was making comments about people who take too much food & how easy it is to not be overweight

obviously, a person who never had a weight issue & unsympathetic to the Christian overweight people standing in line who already know they have a problem

and yes, it's a problem:

"In the United States, 36.5 percent of adults are obese. Another 32.5 percent of American adults are overweight. In all, more than two-thirds of adults in the United States are overweight or obese."

The most spiritual man I ever knew was way overweight and a smoker. My somewhat religious attitude at the time caused me to question how this guy could be spiritual, yet the Lord showed me that he was. Over the next 30 years or so he became my mentor and a close friend. The Lord set him free from smoking. It is actually a nicotine demon. When that was cast our, he was free immediately.

The food issue took much longer. I worried about his health. The Lord told me that there were more important issues in his life and they would be taken care of first. A while later, I watched in amazement as he swept half his food off his plate and told his wife not to serve so much.

Spiritual maturity is progressive and a lifetime's work. God also knows the right order to do things. No one puts a roof on a house before the foundations are laid. What is right for one person is not necessarily correct for someone else.

I was very ill in hospital about a year ago. I lost 5kg, about 11 lbs. I thought at least some good had come of the problem. I was visited by a dietician not long before I was discharged. She told me that I was underweight and she was concerned that I would start to lose muscle. According to my BMI and height/weight chart, I was fine. Not so. The modern advice is that a little extra "condition" (nice word for fat) was beneficial. And that is yet another reason why I distrust most "experts" when it comes to diet.

aiki · Aug 17, 2021

Old Lady said:
I think we don't know a non-Christian from a Christian or who is still in the process of being sanctified or is just a hypocrite in a church.

Okay. Hmmm...So, what do you make of Paul's statement in the following verse?:

2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

If we can't know who is and isn't a Christian, what was Paul saying here? It seems to me Paul is asserting there is a means, a standard, by which we can know whether or not we - or another - is in the faith. You can only discern a crooked line by comparison of it to a straight one.

Do you think he is indicating something else?

The apostle John wrote something similar:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

1 John 3:14-15
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

John is pretty unequivocal in these verses about who is in the faith and who isn't. And the means of telling the difference was overt, not a misty possibility, shrouded in uncertainty. How do you read these verses? If we can't know who is and isn't in the faith, why was John writing these things?

Old Lady said:
Which denomination is the modern church you're talking about?

I'm referring primarily to the modern evangelical Protestant Church in the West. It's the part of the Church with which I am most familiar.

Old Lady said:
Are obese people allowed to become Christians?

??? Have I written somewhere that they aren't allowed?

Old Lady said:
Being overweight shows, but how many thin people have refrained from adultery and/or greed?

I'm not sure what you're point is. Are you saying that thin people being guilty of sin justifies obesity? Are you saying it is okay for an obese person to be obese because thin people have their own sins, too? I don't follow the logic here, if this is what you're suggesting.

Old Lady said:
What causes a person to be overweight from childhood?

I've been careful to talk of the obese person, not a person who is by nature what could be called "husky." I've known some big people who were not what anyone would call thin but who were not, therefore, obese.

Old Lady said:
Why would a well-dressed woman, say , "How will she attract anyone to Christ in those clothes and not wearing any make-up?"

It seems you're talking now of something else, not of a condition where a person is willfully out from under God's control of their food habits and gluttonous. Unlike the amount of food one puts in one's mouth, over the quality of what one wears, one may not have any direct control.

aiki · Aug 17, 2021

I preached on Sunday about living in submission to God. When I was finished, a man with his lower, right leg in a cast hobbled up to me, his rheumy eyes peering at me, and said, "My wife didn't like all your talk about submission. By the end of your sermon, she said to me, 'He's said 'submission' fifty-eight times now.' She's not too big on submitting to anybody." He grinned at me, leaning heavily on his crutches, waiting for my reply. I ignored his remark about his wife and asked what he'd done to his leg.

"It's not just the one leg. I'll probably have the other one casted up when this one comes off. They're both in a bad way."

I asked him why that was.

"Diabetes. I lost a kidney already, y'know."

I offered a sympathetic reply and then the crippled fellow declared, "I like my ice cream. I just won't give it up. It just tastes too good!" Our conversation ended soon after and the fellow hobbled away.

Off and on, I've been thinking on this short exchange with this guy, stunned at the blindness he showed to his own open rebellion toward God in his eating habits. (And how quick he was to throw his wife under the bus! Yikes!) Anyway, he was typical of many other Christians I know who have a very soft attitude toward food addiction and obesity. This man, crippled by his lack of Spirit-control over his eating, was a slowly-collapsing illustration of the destructiveness of living apart from God's control. But as he talked with me, it was clear he expected only commiseration with his circumstance, not criticism. It was clearly criticism he needed, though (and maybe another couple of sermons on submitting to God!)

I've heard so many times from believers caught in various addictions that their addiction is "very complicated," the implication being that God's remedy for all sin is just not effective against their particular "complicated" sinful addiction. I get that some sins develop a biochemical component, making it much more difficult to win free of them. I get, too, that it takes time for the effects of sinful choices to be mitigated by living constantly under the Spirit's control. The obese person won't slim down overnight; the inappropriate content addict won't be free of the twisting effects of inappropriate content in an instant; the practiced liar will have to wrestle with the habit of exaggeration and deceit he's formed as God brings him free of his lying, and so on. But there is no sin so "complicated" that it exceeds the power of the Holy Spirit to dissolve, there is no sinful bondage beyond the liberating power of God. We imperil ourselves and the entire Body of Believers when we think otherwise.

aiki · Aug 17, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
The food issue took much longer. I worried about his health. The Lord told me that there were more important issues in his life and they would be taken care of first.

Increasingly, I'm realizing that constant, across-the-board submission to God is vital to real, transformative fellowship with Him. And such fellowship affects every area of my life. Like the tide that raises all boats, the work of the Spirit in my life has had the effect of changing things, not in succession, but simultaneously. This is, I believe, how it is possible to distinguish the Spirit's work from our own efforts to transform ourselves for God (which I tried to do for many decades).

When the Spirit is in control, he deals with the source of our sin: Self. Instead, of taking us through a long line of sins, removing them from our lives one after the other, the Spirit acts upon the root of all our sin, the "old man" (Romans 6:6), and in so doing stamps out sin in a much broader, more fundamental way than we can. Just like taking out a ruptured appendix frees a person from all of its injurious effects, the Spirit putting to death the "old man" frees the believer from all the sinful symptoms of his being in control.

I know this isn't the way Christians today are typically taught to walk with God; it isn't what they've been schooled to expect in walking with God, but it IS what the Bible describes. Read Romans 6, Galatians 2:20, Colossians 3:1-3.

Aussie Pete said:
Spiritual maturity is progressive and a lifetime's work. God also knows the right order to do things. No one puts a roof on a house before the foundations are laid. What is right for one person is not necessarily correct for someone else.

This sounds like common sense, doesn't it? The born-again believer isn't a house being built, however, but a person totally transformed (2 Corinthians 5:17), renewed, given an entirely new identity in Christ, not progressively, but fully and immediately upon their adoption into God's family (1 Corinthians 1:30). Working out this new spiritual life in Christ takes time, of course, and it is this process of moving the truth of one's position in Jesus into one's daily condition that we (or I, at least) call spiritual maturity, but the "roof" and "foundations" of the Christian's spiritual life are fully formed and established - and must be - at the moment of their second birth. As the believer lives in constant submission to the Spirit, the already-existing, fully-formed reality of the believer's new life in Christ is reflected in their daily living, not in bits and pieces, I believe, but as the Fruit of the Spirit, a manifestation of him, not merely of his qualities.

Aussie Pete · Aug 17, 2021

aiki said:
Increasingly, I'm realizing that constant, across-the-board submission to God is vital to real, transformative fellowship with Him. And such fellowship affects every area of my life. Like the tide that raises all boats, the work of the Spirit in my life has had the effect of changing things, not in succession, but simultaneously. This is, I believe, how it is possible to distinguish the Spirit's work from our own efforts to transform ourselves for God (which I tried to do for many decades).

When the Spirit is in control, he deals with the source of our sin: Self. Instead, of taking us through a long line of sins, removing them from our lives one after the other, the Spirit acts upon the root of all our sin, the "old man" (Romans 6:6), and in so doing stamps out sin in a much broader, more fundamental way than we can. Just like taking out a ruptured appendix frees a person from all of its injurious effects, the Spirit putting to death the "old man" frees the believer from all the sinful symptoms of his being in control.

I know this isn't the way Christians today are typically taught to walk with God; it isn't what they've been schooled to expect in walking with God, but it IS what the Bible describes. Read Romans 6, Galatians 2:20, Colossians 3:1-3.

This sounds like common sense, doesn't it? The born-again believer isn't a house being built, however, but a person totally transformed (2 Corinthians 5:17), renewed, given an entirely new identity in Christ, not progressively, but fully and immediately upon their adoption into God's family (1 Corinthians 1:30). Working out this new spiritual life in Christ takes time, of course, and it is this process of moving the truth of one's position in Jesus into one's daily condition that we (or I, at least) call spiritual maturity, but the "roof" and "foundations" of the Christian's spiritual life are fully formed and established - and must be - at the moment of their second birth. As the believer lives in constant submission to the Spirit, the already-existing, fully-formed reality of the believer's new life in Christ is reflected in their daily living, not in bits and pieces, I believe, but as the Fruit of the Spirit, a manifestation of him, not merely of his qualities.

There are two issues that must be dealt with after a person is born again. The first is lack of knowledge. Like a newborn baby, the new Christian lacks the knowledge that sets us free. The second issue is the habits and memories that have programmed the soul to resist the truth that is revealed to the spirit man. We need our minds renewed because we have been programmed in the ways of the world.

A simple example. Most Christians agree that the Bible is God's word. Most agree that giving is the right and biblical thing to do. Not nearly as many follow the principle. We are programmed to look after ourselves, save, invest and maybe throw some scraps to the poor and needy. It took me a long time to overcome the fear of giving - I was raised in a family where lack of money was a constant problem.

We have the indwelling Life of Christ - He IS the Life. However, we are also bound by hindrances and entangled by sin at times. We do need to deal with these things. Some Christians struggle more than others. Not so many never disobey, never give in to temptation, or never indulge self. We should not allow ourselves to be condemned if we fail. Neither should we be content to live with a problem that we know is hindering our Christian lives.

I'm much more like Jacob than Abraham or Moses. I've wrestled with God, called Him unfair and had all kinds of trials and troubles. God uses each time of trial to break down the power of self and bring us to a place of greater dependence.

It was a huge issue for me. I learned by bitter experiences that I was the only person that I could depend on. I was naturally independent. A the age of four I told my mother she did not have to take me to school. That was the day after I started.

Most people think it's admirable. God says otherwise. Now I pray about mundane things, such as a parking spot. God answers. I ask God to stop the rain for a few minutes while I unload the car. He does. God is God of all things, even small things. I learn in small things and it works when serious problems arise. I can trust God when nothing makes sense and nothing is working out. It's hard at times. Satan attacks. God's grace is sufficient.

aiki · Aug 18, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
There are two issues that must be dealt with after a person is born again. The first is lack of knowledge. Like a newborn baby, the new Christian lacks the knowledge that sets us free. The second issue is the habits and memories that have programmed the soul to resist the truth that is revealed to the spirit man. We need our minds renewed because we have been programmed in the ways of the world.

Very true. Which is why Christ commanded that the Church take up the work of discipling new believers. Sadly, at least in my area, an endless, scattered series of Bible studies, ranging all over, a mile wide and an inch deep, have replaced proper discipleship. As a result, there are perennial "babes in Christ" crowding the churches on a Sunday morning, their knowledge of the Christian faith constantly expanding in this broad, shallow way, but their life in Christ stagnant, superficial and powerless.

And because these poor believers have been taught in this way, separated from the actual process whereby the Spirit transforms them by the poor teaching they've received, they take up the endless process of stamping out each individual sin in their life, one after the other, chasing down the symptoms of Self in control rather than dealing with Self directly.

Aussie Pete said:
We have the indwelling Life of Christ - He IS the Life. However, we are also bound by hindrances and entangled by sin at times. We do need to deal with these things. Some Christians struggle more than others. Not so many never disobey, never give in to temptation, or never indulge self. We should not allow ourselves to be condemned if we fail. Neither should we be content to live with a problem that we know is hindering our Christian lives.

The great thing about what Christ has done in putting to death our "Old Man" on his cross (Romans 6:6), rendering him powerless there (Romans 6:1-12), is that this crucifying work is equally powerful across-the-board, regardless of the sin a person has embraced and allowed to dominate them. His work isn't more effective in some cases and less effective in others. He has crucified the "Old Man," Self, of every child of God, successfully freeing all of them fully from the power of the "Old Man" and thus from sin. All that remains is for God's children to know it and by faith live in the truth of this spiritual reality. But I NEVER hear these truths taught from the pulpit, though they are the fundamental truths of the Christian life! Amazing. And so, instead, the moralistic idea that the Christian life is an endless process of "weeding," pulling up sins one after another 'til one dies and goes to glory, has taken root, the abundant life of Christ never obtained, prevented by a preoccupation with tending to the "weeds" of sin.

Aussie Pete said:
I'm much more like Jacob than Abraham or Moses. I've wrestled with God, called Him unfair and had all kinds of trials and troubles. God uses each time of trial to break down the power of self and bring us to a place of greater dependence.

I have had my own share of troubles and trials. Some I thought I wouldn't survive. It's been - and is - hard. But, like you, God has used these circumstances to orient me more and more upon Him and to prompt me to rely increasingly upon the Holy Spirit in humble near-constant submission. Anyway, I wonder if Moses or Abraham would see themselves as distinctly different from Jacob in their walk with God...

Aussie Pete said:
It was a huge issue for me. I learned by bitter experiences that I was the only person that I could depend on. I was naturally independent. A the age of four I told my mother she did not have to take me to school. That was the day after I started.

Most people think it's admirable. God says otherwise.

Amen.

I've come to realize - as, perhaps you have, too - that dependence isn't tantamount to submission. They're overlapping things, for sure, but there is something about consciously, explicitly submitting my will to God's, yielding my life again and again entirely to His control, that is different from trusting, or obeying, or depending upon God. I can be crowded quite unwillingly into trusting and depending upon God by circumstances that are beyond my control, while simultaneously retaining autonomy from Him in many other areas of my life. I can obey God piecemeal, on the surface appearing to keep His commandments, but inwardly living with a heart that is far from Him, in constant rebellion to Him, in fact. Like the Pharisees of Jesus's day. Over the last few years, God has been driving home that loving, often moment-by-moment, submission to God is the ground out of which trusting, depending upon and obeying God arise.

How about you?

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