What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

Status
Not open for further replies.

.Jeremiah.

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2021
505
378
71
The South
✟21,473.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How did the Lord give me the understanding of the Trinity?

Well, it was a long time ago in a place far far away from where I live now. I am not sure exactly the first point in my life when I believed the Trinity. If my memory serves me correctly: My first memory of the Trinity was hearing it at church. But I also knew about the Trinity through Chick Publications because of their tracts, as well. For I was saved by a one of their tracts called, “This Was Your Life” back in 1992. I later came to discuss the Trinity in depth on various Christian forums over the past 10 years and my study of the truth of the Trinity only strengthened when I dug deeper into God’s Word (defending it). So I did not just follow blindly follow the crowd what I was originally taught, but I confirmed such a truth with the Word like a good Berean should do.

What is my understanding of the Trinity?

My understanding of the Trinity (i.e. Godhead - KJB) is that the Lord our God is one God and yet He also exists as three distinct persons (i.e. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost). Basically God is one being or entity and yet He is three persons. He is three and yet one (Which is what 1 John 5:7 says in my Bible). Yes, I am aware of the doubters on 1 John 5:7. But I believe it by faith like I believe John 3:16 by faith.

1 John 5:7 KJB says,
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”​

But there is a trail of historical evidence for 1 John 5:7, though.
Here it is:

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.​

Source:
D. W. Daniels.



The Trinity

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).​

The Trinity is told to us in one verse in the King James Bible.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7 KJB).

While I use Modern Translations to update the 1600’s English in the King James Bible, you have to be careful with Modern Translations because they also teach a lot of false doctrine.

See this CF thread here to learn more.

Anyways, 1 John 5:7 is removed in most Modern Translations. Just Google “the origin of Arianism” (Anti-Trinitarianism) and you will see that it originates from Alexandria, Egypt. Yet, scholars testify that the Critical Text of where most Modern Translations come from is from Alexandria, Egypt. So surely it is not a coincidence that this verse was removed so as to attack the Trinity because the gnostics did not believe in it in Alexandria, Egypt.

If you know anything about Egypt in the Bible, it is generally regarded in a negative way within the Scriptures.

Romans 1:20 also says,
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts of the Apostles 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).

Again, Modern Translations attempt to change the word “Godhead” in the King James Bible to mean something else like “divine nature” etc.; But Godhead is the correct translation and it synonymous with Trinity.

Trinity | Definition, Theology, & History

If you are interested, I could keep going if you like.

May God bless you this fine evening.

Wow, Bible Highlighter, you were EXTREMELY thoughtful and helpful with your response. It was very helpful and I thank you very much for your effort. I was not expecting such a thorough answer, but was delighted to read it.

May God bless you my friend.
 
Upvote 0

sandman

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2003
2,458
1,642
MI
✟121,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Constitution
There is no neutral position when it comes to truth vs. non-truth. Something is either true or it is false. Unitarianism is false and it is a non-truth. Any kind of promotion or mention of Unitarianism is a backing of their agenda against the truth of the Trinity as revealed in Holy Scripture. So no. Such info. Is not neutral by any means. It favors the Unitarian agenda.

I didn’t say I was neutral ….I stated ➡ I took a neutral position …And I am not surprised that you don’t think that can be done. ….

And yes…. Something is either Truth or it’s not. And you would agree there is no in between…Right…?

You would also agree that the only source for Truth would be the Word of God …correct…?.

The OP stated:

I can understand why some people might hold to various beliefs that I think are unbiblical, but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled. Why do they do this?

So I am responding to the OP’s question:

In a court of law you have a defense and prosecutor……Because I have researched this for several years I am acting as the defense ……and if the need arises the prosecutor, although I have not seen any monotheists postings yet. As the defense, that does not mean I believe in the defendant, I am just presenting the case….the judge “The Word of God” determines the truth.

I don’t undermine the triune belief by stating what the Word says about specific scripture. It will either back up what you believe or it doesn’t…. The Word of God is our only rule of faith and practice…. truth does not favor agendas …truth glorifies God.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,863
7,971
NW England
✟1,050,274.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
One has to seek out the book of the Lord in order to find it.

The "Book of the Lord" is the Bible which contains the recorded words of the Lord.

The KJB went through several editions (slight updates for grammar, printing errors, etc.) and it was not revised with being a completely different version.

So, not perfect then?
Did God get it wrong first time?

There were seven purification’s of the 1611 KJB. This makes sense because it says in Psalms 12 that the Word was purified seven times.

But not the KJV.
The word of God was around long before King James was even thought of.

Anyways, if the Living Word is perfect, then that means that the Communicated Word must be perfect, too.

Not necessarily; but in any case, the KJV is not perfect.

Just check out this thread for the verses on that.

The Living Word & the Communicated Word.

No thanks.
That is doubtless a thread that was started by you. And as your starting point is always "the KJV is divine and perfect", any discussion on the subject is futile. In fact it's not so much a discussion as a lecture on, "this is why I am right and the KJV is the only word of God".
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,641
7,853
63
Martinez
✟903,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What are the motivations or reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity?

I am always fascinated behind the motivations behind why people believe they do. I can understand why some people might hold to various beliefs that I think are unbiblical, but when folks reject the Trinity as revealed in Scripture, I am just puzzled. Why do they do this? For there are believers who do not understand the Trinity and yet they accept it by faith it is true (even when they don’t understand it). I admire them for that. For me: I guess I was blessed by the Lord to be able to understand the Trinity right away.
There are certain denominations that are nontrinitarian. This link is helpful.
Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia
 
  • Informative
Reactions: sandman
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,863
7,971
NW England
✟1,050,274.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
FWIW, that list of nonTrinitarian churches is impressive at first glance, but it really amounts to about four or five church groups and all of them are customarily considered to be cults (for not believing in the Trinity) or non-Christian.

Yes, I don't know about others, but Mormons and JWs are Christian cults, not Christian denominations.
 
Upvote 0

Jay Sea

................ Ke ĉiuj vivu
Mar 28, 2020
340
161
81
victoria
✟26,347.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Oh, but indeed it does. . .being in the eternal kingdom set up by Jesus Christ at his first coming is about more than following a way of life.

You are not in that kingdom without faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," justified. Entering his kingdom is not based on your lifestyle, but on what you are trusting for your admission, Christ's finished work, or your own good works.

Good works are the lifestyle of those who have entered, but following "God's way" does not get one in the gate.
Indeed you do need trust in Yeshua as his disciple in his Way. Yeshua did not teach doctrine but a way of life, the life in the Kingdom Now. The way of love, compassion and forgiveness far all mankind, even for our enemies. We are to follow him even if it cause our death. We are to be like him and walk into the room of those who would condemn us to death without lifting a hand in anger. I will not accept such a life for doctrine.
In LOve
Jay Sea
 
Upvote 0

R7-12

Active Member
Aug 17, 2004
51
26
North of the 49th, West of the Rockies
Visit site
✟4,782.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Divorced
Three, deniers of the Trinity are not allowed to post here in the Christian section of the forums at CF. So you are in the wrong place to promote your unbiblical view of God, friend.
If that is the case, that is strange indeed. All the Patriarchs, Prophets, Disciples, Apostles, and all other true believers in the Bible, including Christ himself, all believed in only One True God, the Father, as per John 17:3. Even the demons know that God is one being, and they tremble out of fear and respect (Jas. 2:19). But those who likewise believe in only One True God, are not allowed to post in the "Christian" section of the forums at CF? If that is true, then I don't want to break any of your rules and will discontinue posting here.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: sandman
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,620.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Indeed you do need trust in Yeshua as his disciple in his Way.
Yeshua did not teach doctrine but a way of life, the life in the Kingdom Now.
"No on can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." John 6:65
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:37
"No one can see the kingdom of God until he is born again." John 3:3
"Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." John 3:18
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

The above are doctrine.
Doctrine is truth.
We must worship God in truth.
Love rejoices in the truth. (1 Corinthians 3:16)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

R7-12

Active Member
Aug 17, 2004
51
26
North of the 49th, West of the Rockies
Visit site
✟4,782.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Divorced
Three, deniers of the Trinity are not allowed to post here in the Christian section of the forums at CF. So you are in the wrong place to promote your unbiblical view of God, friend.
I just checked, my friend, and the types of discussions going on in this thread are not against the rules,
"Honest debate about the nature of God and Christian Theology is allowed."

Also, with regard to discussions about the nature of God, this thread is actually in the Controversial Christian Theology section which is in line with the rules.

They state,
"Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum."

So as far as I can tell, the Biblical view that there is one God - a singular being, as opposed to two or three, is allowed to be discussed here.

Am I wrong, according to scripture, in saying that we have one God, the Father, and in addition, we have one Lord, Jesus Christ?

"Now may our God and Father Himself (singular) and Jesus our Lord (separate and distinct) direct our way to you..." (1Thes. 3:11; NASB; emphasis added, plus notes in parentheses).

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:7b; NASB; emphasis added).

God, the Supreme Deity, is identified as the Father. Jesus Christ is not identified as the Supreme Deity but as our Lord (our Master, by delegation from the Father).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: sandman
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There are certain denominations that are nontrinitarian. This link is helpful.
Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia

That’s not what I was asking. I am not buying Arians” proof texts in Scripture. I am hardcore pro Trinity and I wondering why people reject the Trinity. So I am asking my fellow Christians (who are also pro Trinity) why this is so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sandman

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2003
2,458
1,642
MI
✟121,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Constitution
That’s not what I was asking. I am not buying Arians” proof texts in Scripture. I am hardcore pro Trinity and I wondering why people reject the Trinity from fellow Christians (who are also pro Trinity).

Can you give a bit more insight into that........ I don't understand how pro trinity people can reject the trinity.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Can you give a bit more insight into that........ I don't understand how pro trinity people can reject the trinity.

Reworded my post a little better so that hopefully you will get it.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: sandman
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Wow, Bible Highlighter, you were EXTREMELY thoughtful and helpful with your response. It was very helpful and I thank you very much for your effort. I was not expecting such a thorough answer, but was delighted to read it.

May God bless you my friend.

You are most welcome.

May God bless you greatly.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: .Jeremiah.
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I just checked, my friend, and the types of discussions going on in this thread are not against the rules,
"Honest debate about the nature of God and Christian Theology is allowed."

Also, with regard to discussions about the nature of God, this thread is actually in the Controversial Christian Theology section which is in line with the rules.

They state,
"Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum."

So as far as I can tell, the Biblical view that there is one God - a singular being, as opposed to two or three, is allowed to be discussed here.

Am I wrong, according to scripture, in saying that we have one God, the Father, and in addition, we have one Lord, Jesus Christ?

"Now may our God and Father Himself (singular) and Jesus our Lord (separate and distinct) direct our way to you..." (1Thes. 3:11; NASB; emphasis added, plus notes in parentheses).

"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:7b; NASB; emphasis added).

God, the Supreme Deity, is identified as the Father. Jesus Christ is not identified as the Supreme Deity but as our Lord (our Master, by delegation from the Father).

Yes, they are.

It says in this in regards to Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose:

Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums.​

Source:
Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,863
7,971
NW England
✟1,050,274.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If that is the case, that is strange indeed. All the Patriarchs, Prophets, Disciples, Apostles, and all other true believers in the Bible, including Christ himself, all believed in only One True God, the Father, as per John 17:3. Even the demons know that God is one being, and they tremble out of fear and respect (Jas. 2:19). But those who likewise believe in only One True God, are not allowed to post in the "Christian" section of the forums at CF? If that is true, then I don't want to break any of your rules and will discontinue posting here.

We all believe in the one, true God.
There IS only one God - yet he is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We do not believe in 3 separate Gods.
 
Upvote 0

R7-12

Active Member
Aug 17, 2004
51
26
North of the 49th, West of the Rockies
Visit site
✟4,782.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Divorced
We all believe in the one, true God.
There IS only one God - yet he is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We do not believe in 3 separate Gods.
That's not what Christ said in John 17:3. When he was praying to his God and his Father, he clearly said to Him, "You, the Only True God." He did not include himself in that statement and made no mention of God's Holy Spirit. Rather, he referred to himself as the one sent (as a messenger given a task) by the Only True God.

Can you tell me how you came to believe in the Trinity?
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
"Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum."

So as far as I can tell, the Biblical view that there is one God - a singular being, as opposed to two or three, is allowed to be discussed here.
What's permitted does not include a non-Trinitarian concept of one God. The Nicene Creed is the standard that is used on CF, in case anyone is in doubt about exactly what is acceptable and what is not.

Am I wrong, according to scripture, in saying that we have one God, the Father, and in addition, we have one Lord, Jesus Christ?
I don't even know what your belief is...not if I try to go by that deliberately ambiguous statement.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,802
4,309
-
✟681,411.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You always come up with the most informative articles :).

No Christian can accept this. It sounds like JW's, and perhaps Mormons.

This creed is vague. It's not clear how Ulfias understands the expression "only-begotten son."

Augustine's debate with the Arian bishop Maximinus (worth reading the full debate, lots of proof texting early on by the Arian).

Maximinus’s Final Discourse (From His Debate With Augustine)
I'll let you know after reading the discourse.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You always come up with the most informative articles :).


No Christian can accept this. It sounds like JW's, and perhaps Mormons.
Indeed, the JWs hold to a view that is very close to that taught by Arius. The Mormon concept is different, although still non-Trinitarian.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.