How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

eclipsenow said:

Yeah, cause the land is going to be lush and verdant after a supernova! Ha ha ha
You really got the context of Isaiah blessing Israel there, didn't you?
I know, let's do this with pictures to make it easy.

How does THIS...
View attachment 304332

...go with THIS...
View attachment 304334

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Read Zechariah 14:6-7. And also V8 When Jesus returns, the cosmos will have parted, and will not be between earth and the third heaven.

A short time before Jesus descending down to this earth, the sun 7 times brighter appears to be part of the super nova process before dying out. i.e the turning black in the sixth seal, as the cosmos is also removed. The world seeing Jesus before the throne of God.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Douggg said:

Read Zechariah 14:6-7. And also V8 When Jesus returns, the cosmos will have parted, and will not be between earth and the third heaven.

A short time before Jesus descending down to this earth, the sun 7 times brighter appears to be part of the super nova process before dying out. i.e the turning black in the sixth seal, as the cosmos is also removed. The world seeing Jesus before the throne of God.

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No this is not what God said. You just make it up by suggesting supernova. Like I said, speculations.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

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Zechariah 14:8

• "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."

Christ is that living waters that went out from Jerusalem (Cross). This is talking about Him going forth to Jews and Gentiles. The former and hinder pertains to the "first and the last" that Christ references in His sermons, as it relates to salvation first to the Jews and also to the Gentiles. The Hebrew word "former" illustrating the Jews being the former or first of the sea, and the word "hinder" being those who come after or behind. In other words, the last. The living waters now go out to all the world, Jew and Gentile, and this seems also to be illustrated in the context of verse that follows.

Zechariah 14:9

• "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

I believe this illustrates that there is no longer the division of Jew and Gentile, but we are all Israel, one body of Christ and one Lord, the Saviour of all the earth. Those who were before not His people, will now be His people.

Ephesians 4:4-6

• "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
• One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
• One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

See, Zechariah 14:8 is primarily addressing "that" mystery that is revealed here, namely, that salvation is going forth to all the world, and is not primarily just for the Jews. And the kingdom of Israel is extended to the whole world so that both the former and latter sea is nourished by these living waters that go out from Jerusalem. King Jesus Christ already reigns since the Cross!

Oh, I forgot to add that in Zechariah 14:8, this living water flowing "in summer and winter" illustrates that the living waters flows out of Jerusalem continually, in season and out. In summer and winter.

I look at the winter of Matthew 24 as a season of hardship, a time of no growth, meaning no salvation. Christ bids them pray that their flight is not in winter because in winter it is too late for fruitage or production. The harvest has come and gone. For example, the season for growth is over and there is no more chance for salvation. However, those sealed do not lack for the living waters in summer or winter. Again, I believe this is just another illustration of why the saints have to be sealed "before" this time of the great fall and desolation Matthew 24 speaks of.

Revelation 7:3

• "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Thus my understanding of Zechariah is that this water flowing "in summer and winter" illustrates that for the true believers, they are secured to have the life-sustaining waters continually, no matter what the condition of the world. Christ is the daily (continual) sacrifice, the living waters from Jerusalem, and He never ceases for His people. Winter cannot be so harsh as to hurt the true believers who "still has life" in this season. They cannot lose it. Indeed, by the Spirit they are renewed day by day. But those who try and make the flight to salvation in winter, I believe signify those who have waited to flee the abomination and it is too late. They were as the foolish virgins in Christ's parable, high-minded, hard-headed and unprepared of the Spirit. These are those not truly saved people, and so for lack of oil for their lamps, they are not able to have light for the way of their escape in time of trial and temptations. Unlike the redeemed, they will not endure in time of temptations.

THE LORDS WRATH – how will it happen?
This much prophesied, still to come, Lords Day of vengeance and wrath – will happen at the same time as an attack against Israel. Psalms 7:12-16 People think there may be a nuclear exchange, but what is more certain is what the prophets say:
Jeremiah 50:25 The Lord opens His armoury and brings forth the weapons of His wrath, for this is His work to be done in the lands of the godless peoples.
Isaiah 34:5 For My sword appears in heaven, it descends in judgement.
Psalm 11:4-6 The Lord is in heaven, raining fiery coals onto the wicked.
Isaiah 66:15-16 See, the Lord is coming in fire, like a whirlwind. He will judge with fire, His sword will test mankind and many will be slain by Him.
Isaiah 33:10-12 Now I shall arise, says the Lord, I will exalt Myself. You will be as chaff and stubble, a wind like fire will consume you. Whole nations will be heaps of white ash, like thorns cut down and set on fire.
Psalm 144:5-6 Lord, part the heavens. Make lightning flashes far and wide.
Isaiah 30:30 Then the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty...descending in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire amid storms and hail.
Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from God, a sweeping whirlwind which whirls around the heads of the wicked. The Lords fierce anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes. In Days to come you will understand.
Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet, the horde of Your enemies will crumble into dust, fly away like chaff. Suddenly in an instant punishment will come from the Lord, with storms, thunder, earthquakes and great noise and a flame of devouring fire.
Isaiah 9:19 The land is scorched by the Lord, the people are like fuel for the fire.
Isaiah 10:17 The Light of Israel will become a fire, its Holy One a flame, which, in one day will burn up and consume His thorns and briars.
Isaiah 30:26-30 On the Day that the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness and the moon will be as bright as the sun.
See; the Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. His lips are charged with wrath and His tongue is a devouring fire. His breath is like a torrent in spate. He sieves out the nations for destruction. Isaiah 63:1-6

What these (and many other) prophecies, seem to be describing is sunspot activity.
Maybe the sun is building up to a huge Coronal Mass Ejection, something we do experience with minor CME’s. They happen very suddenly and unexpectedly, reaching earth within hours and are capable of causing enormous damage and deaths worldwide.
All electrical and communications systems, industry, transport; our modern infrastructure could be destroyed, or at least severely damaged. Armies would be back to 1800’s technology.

A CME explosion of the suns surface, as described in Isaiah 30:26, with the sun flashing 7 times brighter, would be one of unprecedented magnitude and would literally cause all the graphically prophesied effects. For example; the moon would shine bright red as it reflects this sun explosion and our satellites would crash to the earth, like ripe figs falling.

keras said:

What these (and many other) prophecies, seem to be describing is sunspot activity.
Maybe the sun is building up to a huge Coronal Mass Ejection, something we do experience with minor CME’s. They happen very suddenly and unexpectedly, reaching earth within hours and are capable of causing enormous damage and deaths worldwide.
All electrical and communications systems, industry, transport; our modern infrastructure could be destroyed, or at least severely damaged. Armies would be back to 1800’s technology.

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Sunspot?
Massive Coronal Mass Ejection?
Satellites falling?

Did God interpret His Word this way or is it your speculation by reading into what Scripture says.

A CME explosion of the suns surface, as described in Isaiah 30:26, with the sun flashing 7 times brighter, would be one of unprecedented magnitude and would literally cause all the graphically prophesied effects. For example; the moon would shine bright red as it reflects this sun explosion and our satellites would crash to the earth, like ripe figs falling.

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Isa 30:26
(26) Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

What is the context of Isaiah 30 all about? Isn't it about the siege of Jerusalem with rebellious Jews that God warned not to seek military help from Egypt? You need to read Isaiah chapters 29-31. This has nothing to do with us today with your speculation.

Douggg said:

Read Zechariah 14:6-7. And also V8 When Jesus returns, the cosmos will have parted, and will not be between earth and the third heaven.

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And there I was thinking we were discussing Isaiah, specifically Chapter 30, where Israel repents and Isaiah discusses the blessing for repentance?

Why are so many futurists unable to calm down for 5 seconds and focus on what a verse means in the original context? That's Biblical Theology - learning where a verse fits in its chapter, where the chapter fits in its book, where the book fits in its section, where the section fits in its covenant, and where the covenant - old or new aka Testament, sits in relationship with the whole word of God. THEN and only THEN do we move into taking what we know that verse said to the original audience, and wonder how it fits into the message of the WHOLE bible - which is Systematic Theology. Look them up! Systematic Theology and Biblical Theology. They're a thing. And you're missing one of them!

A short time before Jesus descending down to this earth, the sun 7 times brighter appears to be part of the super nova process before dying out. i.e the turning black in the sixth seal, as the cosmos is also removed. The world seeing Jesus before the throne of God.

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Blah blah blah.
Context aka Biblical Theology aka Hermeneutics aka knowing how to read well!
Try it sometime.

TribulationSigns said:

Sunspot?
Massive Coronal Mass Ejection?
Satellites falling?

Did God interpret His Word this way or is it your speculation by reading into what Scripture says.



Isa 30:26
(26) Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

What is the context of Isaiah 30 all about? Isn't it about the siege of Jerusalem with rebellious Jews that God warned not to seek military help from Egypt? You need to read Isaiah chapters 29-31. This has nothing to do with us today with your speculation.

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Yes! Also, I don't know what your commentaries say about this particular 'sevenfold sun' bit but it seems to be Isaiah offering some hope to Israel that if they would only repent, God would BLESS the land. This isn't the judgement of the flames, but the brightness of God's blessing - somehow. What do you make of the way light is often about God's blessing and wisdom and way in Isaiah?

See Isa 2:5 "Come, descendants of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the Lord."
Isaiah 42:15
I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
I will turn the darkness into light before them
and make the rough places smooth.

Isaiah 60:19
The sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.

eclipsenow said:

And there I was thinking we were discussing Isaiah, specifically Chapter 30, where Israel repents and Isaiah discusses the blessing for repentance?

Why are so many futurists unable to calm down for 5 seconds and focus on what a verse means in the original context? That's Biblical Theology - learning where a verse fits in its chapter, where the chapter fits in its book, where the book fits in its section, where the section fits in its covenant, and where the covenant - old or new aka Testament, sits in relationship with the whole word of God. THEN and only THEN do we move into taking what we know that verse said to the original audience, and wonder how it fits into the message of the WHOLE bible - which is Systematic Theology. Look them up! Systematic Theology and Biblical Theology. They're a thing. And you're missing one of them!


Blah blah blah.
Context aka Biblical Theology aka Hermeneutics aka knowing how to read well!
Try it sometime.

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You switched to philosophizing about a process of how to understand the bible. While I was responding to the issue of the sun becoming 7 fold times brighter, and the sun becoming black.

fold 1 - the brightness 2x
fold 2 - the brightness 4x
fold 3 - the brightness 8x
fold 4 - the brightness 16x
fold 5 - the brightness 32x
fold 6 - the brightness 64x
fold 7 - the brightness 128x

It sounds to me like the sun going super nova before burning out turning black.

keras said:

At the Sixth Seal; the sun will flash 7 times brighter, then darken and the moon will shine blood red.

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Keras, please provide a copy and paste from the Reb of Revelation 6:12. I want to know if you are interjecting commentary or that is what is written in the text of the Reb.

It appears to me in Revelation 16:8-10 the sun begins pulsating* bright then dark (fourth vial of God's wrath, then fifth vial of God's wrath) before going supernova at the moment of the sixth seal, dying and turning black.

*Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

When the sixth angel pours out his vial, the Euphrates river will have dried up, and the Kings of the East will be able to cross, unimpeded, as they have been on their way to fight the beast, killing a third of mankind in their march west, in the prelude to Armageddon in the battles of Daniel 11:40-45.

Then what inter-rupts those battles is the sixth seal event - terrorizing the kings of the earth as they see Jesus before the throne of God, sickle in hand, in the third heaven. The cosmos rolled up like a scroll, and the sun having gone supernova, becoming black.

There will be light on the earth, even though the sun dies, because it will be coming from the third heaven. Which in Zechariah 14, when Jesus Returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives, indicates light on earth will be different in v6-7, known how by the Lord.

@eclipsenow You had posted in your post #238 a scene of blessings to be in Israel that day, and asked how...

v8 in Zechariah 14, says living waters will flow out from Jerusalem in that day, following Jesus's return to this earth, to Jerusalem in that day. The living water will restore the land to idyllic conditions.

Douggg said:

You switched to philosophizing about a process of how to understand the bible. While I was responding to the issue of the sun becoming 7 fold times brighter, and the sun becoming black.

fold 1 - the brightness 2x
fold 2 - the brightness 4x
fold 3 - the brightness 8x
fold 4 - the brightness 16x
fold 5 - the brightness 32x
fold 6 - the brightness 64x
fold 7 - the brightness 128x

It sounds to me like the sun going super nova before burning out turning black.

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Yeah, and Isaiah was REALLY talking about exponential math as well!

Seriously - 7 is one of the most OBVIOUS Jewish number symbols. It's 7 times brighter = the perfect amount brighter, the GOD amount brighter, the COMPLETE amount brighter.

Meanwhile I'll remind you that while you're mucking around DESTROYING THE PLANET - in Isaiah 30 he was actually offering Israel a lifeline - a moment of hope if they repented. Google about context.

Douggg said:

@eclipsenow You had posted in your post #238 a scene of blessings to be in Israel that day, and asked how...

v8 in Zechariah 14, says living waters will flow out from Jerusalem in that day, following Jesus's return to this earth, to Jerusalem in that day. The living water will restore the land to idyllic conditions.

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See, context first involves the verses surrounding your verses, then the chapter, then the section of the book, then the book, then that books position in the bible, etc. So when you try to justify why you RIP one verse from Isaiah COMPLETELY out of context, and then stab another completely different verse from a completely different book in the bible through the heart of this one. Again - google context.

eclipsenow said:

Yeah, and Isaiah was REALLY talking about exponential math as well!

Seriously - 7 is one of the most OBVIOUS Jewish number symbols. It's 7 times brighter = the perfect amount brighter, the GOD amount brighter, the COMPLETE amount brighter.

The number seven was the general symbol for all association with God, and was the favorite religious number of Judaism, typifying the covenant of holiness and sanctification, and also all that was holy and sanctifying in purpose. The candlestick had seven lamps, and the acts of atonement and purification were accompanied by a sevenfold sprinkling. The establishment of the Sabbath, the Sabbatical year, and the year of jubilee was based on the number seven, as were the periods of purification and of mourning. The number 7 is the Divine number of completion.
Jewish symbolism - Wikipedia
​

Meanwhile I'll remind you that while you're mucking around DESTROYING THE PLANET - in Isaiah 30 he was actually offering Israel a lifeline - a moment of hope if they repented. Google about context.

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You are making commentary on the significance of the number 7 in the bible.

I am addressing the issue of the sun's brightness increasing 7 fold, and then turning black in Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.

Also, you seem to be discarding the living waters coming from Jerusalem, after Jesus returns to this earth to stand on the Mt. of Olives, the effect that will have.

Douggg said:

You are making commentary on the significance of the number 7 in the bible.

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Yes - because it has a general theological purpose.

I am addressing the issue of the sun's brightness increasing 7 fold, and then turning black in Revelation 6, the sixth seal event.

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Yeah - except stop doing everything you're doing after the comma and AND in that sentence. In other words - I'm asking what you think the 7 fold brightness actually meant to the guy who was writing it in context - Isaiah. And what it would have meant to his audience.

Also, you seem to be discarding the living waters coming from Jerusalem, after Jesus returns to this earth to stand on the Mt. of Olives, the effect that will have.

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What - after the planet's GONE due to this supernova you're talking about?
You're not making any sense.
It's all just magic - you may as well read random cards as pluck verses out of context. I tell you what - get all the verses in the bible and cut them up into individual strips. Jumble them in a bucket, and pull out the first 10 verses. And there's your theology! That's basically what you're doing now. Total randomness might even be an improvement. Just don't ask me to respect the process!

Try and get the CONTEXT correct and tell me what the 7 fold brightness means IN ISAIAH 30 itself!

eclipsenow said:

I'm asking what you think the 7 fold brightness actually meant to the guy who was writing it in context - Isaiah. And what it would have meant to his audience.

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I am going by the person who authoried it - God. What you are missing is that Revelation the messages to the churches is pastorial on how Christians should live until Jesus Returns.

Revelation 6-19 is how God is going to end this soridid state of existence man is end. And has been in since the fall in the garden of Eden.

eclipsenow said:

What - after the planet's GONE due to this supernova you're talking about?

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I did not write after the planet is gone due to the sun going supernova. I wrote that the sun dies and turns black because of it going super nova. The earth is not going to be gone.

Jesus returns to this earth.

eclipsenow said:

And there's your theology! That's basically what you're doing now. Total randomness might even be an improvement. Just don't ask me to respect the process!

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My eschatology is not random. Anything, but. It is based on events leading up to Jesus's return. My charts all end the same way, with Jesus's return.

Douggg said:

I am going by the person who authoried it - God.

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No, you deliberately misrepresented what God said. You simple force His Word to talk about sun going into supernova when He does not say.

Have observed your postings, you actually "chose" to selectively choose words or verse in that context literally or figuratively depending upon your own presuppositions and preconceived ideas and teachings. And that is a very unsound hermeneutic to try and understand what "God" is saying.

2nd Timothy 2:15

• "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Study unto rightly dividing or "cutting" proportionally, or equally, so there is consistent agreement and no discrepancy between this verse and that one. That is the only sound hermeneutic or system of interpretation of God's prophesy. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, the Spiritual with the Spiritual. Because inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

I did not write after the planet is gone due to the sun going supernova. I wrote that the sun dies and turns black because of it going supernova. The earth is not going to be gone.

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Let quiz your scientific knowledge. How long will the whole process for our young Sol's with her mass go into supernova before it becomes "black" that will bring "total darkness" to Earth for people to experience it before Christ returns? How long all of this will take, really?

JohnB445 said:

Also the poll is kept completely anonymous of who voted. I hope I got every single different view down, it seems there are only 4 options.

My biggest case for believing in pre-trib rapture is that the Bible seems to make clear we are not appointed for wrath, why would God want us going through such a time? However I sometimes think about post tribulation since many Baptists/Calvinists tend to hold those views and my core beliefs are closest to those 2 denominations.

Some are very serious about post-trib that they prep for it, it really makes a statement about how serious they believe in it.

As for my research on this matter, I have only so far skimmed the surface. Recently has been my 3rd year since my conversion.

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Good luck getting a good answer - as you can see from your thread.

The reality is that there is no definitive arguement about the rapture. Limiting it to pre- and post- tribulation, you can investigate it from 4 perspectives: prove pre-trib; prove post-trib; disprove pre-trib; disprove post-trib. Not one perspective has a definitive arguement.

And there are good, knowledgeable Christians that believe pre-trib, and good knowledgeable Christians that believe post-trib.

Its one of those issues that can't be resolved Biblically, and won't be resolved until it happens.

Hope for pre- but don't be surprised if its post-.

classical5 said:

Good luck getting a good answer - as you can see from your thread.

The reality is that there is no definitive arguement about the rapture. Limiting it to pre- and post- tribulation, you can investigate it from 4 perspectives: prove pre-trib; prove post-trib; disprove pre-trib; disprove post-trib. Not one perspective has a definitive arguement.

And there are good, knowledgeable Christians that believe pre-trib, and good knowledgeable Christians that believe post-trib.

Its one of those issues that can't be resolved Biblically, and won't be resolved until it happens.

Hope for pre- but don't be surprised if its post-.

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There's more positions than pre and post trib.

eclipsenow said:

Try and get the CONTEXT correct and tell me what the 7 fold brightness means IN ISAIAH 30 itself!

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Isaiah 30 is about the mistake that Israel was making in going to pharoah for protection against the Assyrian threat, instead of going to the Lord.

And in verse 8, God says to Isaiah to document it for them, a lesson for ever and ever.

Noting that Israel is a rebellious people in verse 9. Who would not take God's instructions to come to Him, and not Pharoah, or any other human leader in principle.

verse 10, Israel rejects that notion, and goes through with its hope for protection from Pharoah.

verse 18, yet the Lord waits for Israel to come to him.

Looking at Israel's past, they still have not come to the Lord.

That they will eventually come to him is in the future.. because in v19 God is going to bless them, when they finally turn to the Lord's way.

Which that time will be when the Lord comes from afar in v27. i.e. Jesus's Second coming.

Which God will destroy the Assyrians of the world. Which when the Lord comes from afar, the Assyrians of the world will be the beast and false prophet, and all them who will persecute Israel.

The 7 fold brightness of the sun in v26, will be at that time. With 20/20 hindsight we know that it hasn't happened in history.
_______________________________________________

The message being sent to Israel is not to trust in a man, but to trust in God for protect and salvation. And to wait upon the Lord, for He will keep all of His promises made to Israel.

Douggg said:

Isaiah 30 is about the mistake that Israel was making in going to pharoah for protection against the Assyrian threat, instead of going to the Lord.

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You admitted that Isaiah 30 has to do with Old Testament Israel going to Pharoah of Egypt for protection against Assyrian, but the "7 fold brightness of the sun" judgment was delayed until today?

Jamdoc said:

There's more positions than pre and post trib.

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Yes, but pre and post are the 2 main positions, with mid being a distant third.

But it does not matter. None are proven Biblically.