How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

eclipsenow · Aug 12, 2021

keras said:
Verses like 2 Peter 3:7, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27 for example?

Wow - you're now trivialising a mere mortal death by fire - which is on a par with bushfire or housefire - with the 'mortality' of the entire universe, or the eternal judgement of the Lost. Wow - these entirely spiritual, eternal verses get downgraded, nerfed, robbed of their eternal significance and crammed into your precious CME. That's... disturbing!

So glad I am not in the camp of those who trust Jewish symbolism for their Bible understanding.

Then it's like having a bible written partly in English, and partly in some other language you don't understand. Why would you want that?

Obviously something dramatic is happening in the Sixth Seal. You can't
say they are terrified by 'Jewish symbolism'.

Yeah - but now you're acting like the reality behind the symbol doesn't exist.
Do you even know how metaphor works?

First of all - do you think there's an ACTUAL SCROLL? Or does that represent the unveiling of the mystery of the ages - how God was going to bring Jews and Gentiles together into the one kingdom through Jesus blood? (See Rev 5).

Then - Stars falling to earth? Um, the sun makes up 98% of the mass in the solar system. ALL the planets and asteroids and Oort cloud etc only make up 2% of the mass in the solar system. And the stars? There are stars with HUNDREDS of times the mass of our sun. Falling to earth?

Oh - but you read this literally. :oldthumbsup:

See - dude - your reading of this as a CME is about as literal as me saying I worship a slain Lamb. Don't patronise John by saying he didn't quite understand a CME and so talked about 'stars falling to earth' because he didn't understand what was being given to him in a vision. It doesn't work like that. God understands a CME and would have explained it to John if it were important!

It's prophetic, symbolic language describing something we simply don't have words for - the return of the God-Man to judge the world and (as the PLAINER verses in the New Testament show us) the end of this universe and beginning of the next. NO WONDER they present it in apocalyptic symbolism.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Your almost desperate attempts to avoid the idea that the Lord would send fire from the sun, is something that you should seriously consider what your reason is for doing so.

Your desperate attempts to read 'stars in the sky fell to earth' as a CME sounds even weaker!

And your belief that it all happens when Jesus Returns, constitutes a re-arrangement of Revelation.

Unless of course you just don't know how to begin to approach the document.
I mean, your insistence that everything has to be read literally and consecutively - in order - sounds intolerant of other cultures. Guess what? Other cultures exist. Other ways of writing exist. Some of them are in the bible. Just like someone has to study physics and maths in order to know what all those symbols and equations mean, a student of the bible might actually need to study various Jewish symbols to get the narratives in Daniel and Revelation. It's not consecutive but concurrent. Deal with it.

Anyway, I was concerned that your church doesn't teach how Jesus reigns now in eschatological tension - the now and not yet. Here's what I meant:

The Kingdom of God, Present
In the New Testament, the promised Messiah comes as “Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham” (Matt. 1:1). Through his incarnation, sinless life, crucifixion, and resurrection, Jesus fulfills the messianic promises, accomplishes the messianic mission, and brings redemption to a lost world.
Jesus is the King whose words and deeds bring the spiritual kingdom of God. He proclaims the coming of the kingdom (Matt. 4:17; Mark 1:15; Luke 4:43), preaches the parables of the kingdom (Matt. 13:1–50), and declares the ethics and nature of the kingdom (Matt. 5–7). His deeds, especially his casting out demons by the Spirit, usher in the kingdom: “If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Matt. 12:28; cf. Luke 11:20). Christ’s mission always leads “up to Jerusalem” and his death and resurrection, where he brings salvation through his sacrifice.

In his ascension, Jesus moves from the limited earthly sphere to the transcendent heavenly one. He sits at God’s right hand “in the heavens—far above every ruler and authority, power and dominion” (Eph. 1:20–21) now and forever. When Jesus pours out the Spirit on the church at Pentecost, God’s kingdom expands mightily as thousands come to Christ (Acts 2:41, 47; 4:4). Peter explains: “God exalted this man to his right hand as ruler and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31). God rescues sinners “from the domain of darkness” and transfers them “into the kingdom of the Son he loves” (Col. 1:13–14).
The “kingdom,” as God’s reign over his people, will finally and ultimately “come at the end of the age in a mighty irruption into history inaugurating the perfect order of the age to come.” And yet this kingdom “has already come into history in the person and mission of Jesus,” and thus the “presence of the future” is already evident (see George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, 144–49). So, God’s reign is present and future, already and not yet, his active invasion of history now and his final establishment of the age to come. It is a sovereign rule, a dynamic power, and a divine activity. As the bearer of this kingdom, Jesus requires repentance to enter his kingdom community, since the present way of the world must be rejected and the new age of God’s rule and its corresponding way of life embraced. As such, repentance is not only the way into the kingdom but also the way of the kingdom.

The New Testament also proclaims that Jesus will return to reign as king, bringing justice, peace, delight, and victory. We live, then, in the tension between the “already” and the “not yet.” The kingdom was established with Israel, inaugurated with Christ in his coming, and achieved in the events of Christ’s death and resurrection. Even though the kingdom effects have begun, their full results await Christ’s return.

The Kingdom of God, Future
Although Jesus in his earthly ministry brings the kingdom, which expands exponentially at Pentecost, the fullness of the kingdom awaits until “the Son of Man comes in his glory” and sits “on his glorious throne” (Matt. 25:31). Then the angels will proclaim, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever” (Rev. 11:15). Jesus will judge the world, inviting believers to “inherit the kingdom” while consigning the lost to eternal punishment (Matt. 25:31–46). At “the end,” Jesus will hand “over the kingdom to God the Father” (1 Cor. 15:24).
Thus the new heavens and new earth will be the final stage of the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God will be at peace only in the end. Though Jesus’s victory has been won, the battle rages until his second coming (1 Pet. 5:8). God’s people conquer through Christ, who loves them and has given himself for them (Gal. 2:20). “The Lion from the tribe of Judah” who “has conquered” is the slain Lamb (Rev. 5:5–6). When the final installment of the kingdom arrives, the struggles of the present life will be past. By God’s grace, believers will reign with Christ. Human life will flourish, and human culture will thrive in the city of God (Heb. 2:5–10; Rev. 21:24–26). Jesus will return, deliver his people, and bring the final installment of his kingdom (Rev. 11:15).

Heaven involves God’s people serving their great King as subjects of his kingdom now and forever: “They are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night” (Rev. 7:15). The Evil One is a defeated foe who will one day be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10). Through Christ, believers overcome death, so that at death they go to be with him (Phil. 1:23), and in the resurrection, death will be banished (1 Cor. 15:26; Rev. 21:4).

Conclusion
The kingdom of God is central to the biblical story of redemption. The story follows the narrative of the fall, the calling of the nation of Israel, and the coming of the promised Messiah, while prophesying his return one day in the culmination of all things, at which time he will set up the new Eden of God’s kingdom in the new heavens and new earth. In the meantime, we live in the already and not yet of the kingdom, serving our King and looking for his return.
The Kingdom of God - The Gospel Coalition

keras · Aug 12, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Your desperate attempts to read 'stars in the sky fell to earth' as a CME sounds even weaker!

The 'stars'; Greek -'asters', mean any cosmic object, which today includes our hundreds of satellites.
It is our satellites that will be pushed out their orbits by the pressure wave of a big CME. They will crash back to earth like ripe figs shaken from the tree.

eclipsenow said:
Anyway, I was concerned that your church doesn't teach how Jesus reigns now in eschatological tension - the now and not yet. Here's what I meant:

Yeah; I read your cut and paste waffle.
Jesus does not reign over the world now. That is the reality. He is in heaven now and He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool.
Which will partly happen at the Sixth Seal, more during the Great Tribulation, and finally at His Return, when He will wipe out Satan's army and then chains up Satan.

eclipsenow · Aug 12, 2021

keras said:
The 'stars'; Greek -'asters', mean any cosmic object, which today includes our hundreds of satellites.
It is our satellites that will be pushed out their orbits by the pressure wave of a big CME. They will crash back to earth like ripe figs shaken from the tree.

Yeah, cause God couldn't possibly explain satellites to John. It's like you think God was limited to showing a TV channel of things John had no way of understanding - so John saw stars crashing to earth. It's like you're saying God couldn't explain anything - like calling satellites 'space-chariots' or 'space homes' - because John was just too dumb to get the idea of mechanical tools or homes in orbit.

Yeah; I read your cut and paste waffle.

I appreciate the effort. Many do not bother the moment something gets beyond a certain length.

Jesus does not reign over the world now. That is the reality.

He reigns over the church, but not over the world in his glorified presence. He reigns in eschatological tension - the now and not yet.

He is in heaven now and He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool.

But he also will make his enemies a footstool.

Which will partly happen at the Sixth Seal

Nah, it all happens at the 6th seal. No one can hide from the Ancient of Days and the Lamb. Unless you want to invent some doctrine about the way people can escape God?

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

That's Judgement Day.
You can't escape it.

2 Thessalonians 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

TribulationSigns · Aug 12, 2021

Pre-, Mid-, Post-, and Pre-wrath are all rapture cousins within the pre-millennial doctrine which I believe is incorrect. I am more than confident with Post-Tribulation rapture, Amillennial version.

TribulationSigns · Aug 12, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Then - Stars falling to earth? Um, the sun makes up 98% of the mass in the solar system. ALL the planets and asteroids and Oort cloud etc only make up 2% of the mass in the solar system. And the stars? There are stars with HUNDREDS of times the mass of our sun. Falling to earth?

Oh - but you read this literally.

Right! They believe that there will be literal balls of fire, many light years away, are going to drop to hit directly on this Earth. How would that be either logical since it would destroy the Earth? That is the absurdity and inconsistency of Keras's "unbiblical" and carnal thinking. It is SYMBOLIC and thus must be understood by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Biblical reasoning is reasoning by the SPIRIT, from the Scriptures -- and not all have the God-given wisdom to do so.

1st Corinthianas 2:13-14

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Indeed, inherently we should be able to discern an exegesis by theologians that read things from out of the Scriptures, as contrasted with theologians that consistently read things into Scripture that are not there. Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible is actually a very consistent, lucid, rational, cerebral and intellectual book that is in complete harmony with itself. Just because it is deemed foolishness by many who are foolish (Psalms 12:15-18), does not make it injudicious, unsound or incomprehensible. In other words, the reason we can come to the correct truth of Scripture is specifically that the Bible is a systematic, sound, logical, noble, consistent and rational book. Just because mankind may lack those qualities, doesn't disprove them. Thus sound reasoning agrees with God's interpretation of the star John saw fallen as a messenger of the church who has fallen away from Him, and that will have his church judged if he doesn't repent and do the first works. That's not my reasoning, as God isn't agreeing with me, I am agreeing with God. It's what God said, and thus really cannot be denied, gainsaid or resisted by any noble servants of God.

Look at Revelation 9, these locust-like representations are permitted to torment for 5 months, which are no more literal than the star John saw that had fallen was literal, or the key that was given him, or the smoke that the sun and the air were darkened by, or the hair of the locust-like symbols that was like women or their tail with a scorpion stinger. How do we know? "By biblical reasoning!"

keras · Aug 12, 2021

eclipsenow said:
That's Judgement Day.
You can't escape it.

Judgement Day is described in Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15.
Nothing remotely like what is described to happen on the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
1 Thess 1:6-10 is another description of the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. NOT a general, final Judgment.

Re our satellites; there was a Nat Geo article that stated how a small CME made some satellites go down to a lower orbit, thus shortening their life.
I imagine that John the Revelator, was puzzled by just about all that Jesus told him to write. Remember; it is the Revelation of Jesus.

Good luck with your 'Biblical reasoning', T.S. Made to suit what you want to happen.

TribulationSigns · Aug 12, 2021

keras said:
The 'stars'; Greek -'asters', mean any cosmic object, which today includes our hundreds of satellites. It is our satellites that will be pushed out their orbits by the pressure wave of a big CME. They will crash back to earth like ripe figs shaken from the tree.

Based on your speculation that there will be a wave of massive CME from Juniper that all satellites will fall as "stars"? Nope.

Now, will you also tell us that the locusts of Revelation 9 be helicopters with chemical warfare as well? Again nope.

God did not ask us to understand Revelation as a literal narrative or allow His Word to be interpreted by world news, YouTube, or conspiracy theories.

TribulationSigns · Aug 12, 2021

keras said:
I imagine that John the Revelator, was puzzled by just about all that Jesus told him to write. Remember; it is the Revelation of Jesus.

You should know by now that God has defined the stars as messengers of the congregation. Not orbiting satellites. And that is right here in the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:20
(20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Believe it or not, the stars are the [aggelos] which are the messengers of the churches. Period! There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Even if they are heavenly beings. They can be messengers of Satan, or messengers of God, or just messengers of a worldly king. They can be human messengers, they can be theophanies, or they could be the saints.

In Revelation chapter 1 verse 20 the messengers of the seven churches that John was divinely inspired to write letters to are God's ministers of the churches. They are people. Not the balls of fire that will fall. The pastor of all churches universally functions as the “messengers,” or the ministering spirits of God who are tasked with delivering God’s word to His congregation. You see that all throughout Scripture. And some the wicked will mock, some are reviled, and some are stoned and killed. And for this we cry, but not for the revelation of His [mal'ak] or messengers that He sent, but for the obstinance of His people against comparing Scripture with Scripture that the will of God may be revealed.

2nd Chronicles 36:15-16

"And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:
But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy."

The unfaithful messengers are the falling stars! It is typical for the [mal'ak] (not Angels) of God to be handled adversely. As saith the Preacher, there is nothing new under the sun. But is there no remedy today either? is there no balm? Is there no oil to heal the breach? This is what is enough to make the "messengers" of God cry out loud, but not the faithful translation of His divinely inspired word.

Satellites?! Please!

Timtofly · Aug 13, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
LOL. How is my heart beating and how am I using my fingers to type this message if my body is dead? You just have some of the strangest beliefs I've ever seen. It's mind boggling.

Of course my body is corruptible rather than incorruptible, but that doesn't mean it's dead. It means it's decaying and will eventually die, but it's not dead yet, man. Don't rush it.

For one who claims a lot of symbolism, why is the corruptible body not a dead body? This dead corruptible body will return to dust.

I suppose you think 1, 2, 3 Heaven means one on top of each other, which is a literal interpretation? Yet you can not see this corruptible body is literally, symbolically dead? It is not literally physically dead. The third heaven is a separate area of heaven, known as Paradise. Paradise is not at the very top of heaven. Paradise is the part of heaven closer than the angels (stars). It is known as 3rd, because we cannot see it in our "spiritual" blindness.

Probably about cloud level as that is where Christ disappeared. Now if you could only see those permanent incorruptible physical bodies, instead of clouds. You would then know at the Cross, there was a resurrection. The first, physical, resurrection was to permanent incorruptible physical bodies that some only see as clouds. Or outright deny Scripture altogether guised as mere symbolism as substantial as clouds or hot air. The firstfruits, are all in Paradise in Christ. Lazarus was the primary example of a soul putting on a permanent incorruptible body, after being called out of the grave by the voice of Jesus Christ to everlasting life. Jesus did not call Lazarus out to go back to death. Jesus is not the Resurrection and temporary corruptible body. Jesus is the Resurrection and Life. That is why Paul claims any who deny the physical bodily resurrection are without hope.

Coping with the facts by using symbolism is not Scriptural. Yes it makes for great inspirational theology. This is not pushing literalism, void of symbolism, only pointing out the facts, literally instead of relying heavily on symbolism without concrete explanation.

Timtofly · Aug 13, 2021

Bob_1000 said:
Jesus being the tree of life would be analogous to Jesus being the lamb of God. Was a literal Passover lamb sacrificed? Yes but that lamb was only a foreshadow of the Lamb of God Jesus.

There was a literal tree in the Garden planted by God. It is still in Paradise, and will be in the New Jerusalem.

eclipsenow · Aug 13, 2021

Timtofly said:
There was a literal tree in the Garden planted by God. It is still in Paradise, and will be in the New Jerusalem.

It is not singular.

"On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."

The other rendering from the footnotes is "In the midst of the street of the city, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life"

It's everywhere.
And it symbolically gives fruit 12 months of the year - 12 the number of God's complete people - and all year round.

You're trying to argue something is literal because you presuppose it to be literal and it's in the most symbolic book of the bible - and your backup is going to another place in the bible known for symbolic writing - early Genesis? Really? Wow - that's not even circular reasoning - just a complete category mistake. It's like trying to read Shakespeare to maintain your computer.

TribulationSigns · Aug 13, 2021

eclipsenow said:
You're trying to argue something is literal because you presuppose it to be literal and it's in the most symbolic book of the bible - and your backup is going to another place in the bible known for symbolic writing - early Genesis? Really? Wow - that's not even circular reasoning - just a complete category mistake. It's like trying to read Shakespeare to maintain your computer.

Indeed.

This is what I have noticed before with Timtofly and others.

Timtofly · Aug 13, 2021

eclipsenow said:
It is not singular.

"On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."

The other rendering from the footnotes is "In the midst of the street of the city, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life"

It's everywhere.
And it symbolically gives fruit 12 months of the year - 12 the number of God's complete people - and all year round.

You're trying to argue something is literal because you presuppose it to be literal and it's in the most symbolic book of the bible - and your backup is going to another place in the bible known for symbolic writing - early Genesis? Really? Wow - that's not even circular reasoning - just a complete category mistake. It's like trying to read Shakespeare to maintain your computer.

Are you claiming I knew everything about the NHNE before I started to read the Bible for the first time?

I have no presuppositions that I brought with me into God's Word.

It is called taught by the Holy Spirit. As opposed to figuring out ancient Jewish culture, and bringing that presupposition into basic reading comprehension of God's Word.

Endtime Servant · Aug 13, 2021

JohnB445 said:
Also the poll is kept completely anonymous of who voted. I hope I got every single different view down, it seems there are only 4 options.

My biggest case for believing in pre-trib rapture is that the Bible seems to make clear we are not appointed for wrath, why would God want us going through such a time? However I sometimes think about post tribulation since many Baptists/Calvinists tend to hold those views and my core beliefs are closest to those 2 denominations.

Some are very serious about post-trib that they prep for it, it really makes a statement about how serious they believe in it.

As for my research on this matter, I have only so far skimmed the surface. Recently has been my 3rd year since my conversion.

Douggg · Aug 13, 2021

eclipsenow said:
See - dude - your reading of this as a CME is about as literal as me saying I worship a slain Lamb. Don't patronise John by saying he didn't quite understand a CME and so talked about 'stars falling to earth' because he didn't understand what was being given to him in a vision. It doesn't work like that. God understands a CME and would have explained it to John if it were important!

No CME in the sixth seal. And that the stars fall to earth is that as the second heaven is rolled up like a scroll, is the stars disappear on the horizon, not that they actually fall upon the earth's surface.

The sixth seal event is the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven, Matthew 24:29-30a.

God is going to put an end to this sordid state of existence that man is in. And has been in since the fall in the garden of Eden.

1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 13, 2021

Timtofly said:
For one who claims a lot of symbolism, why is the corruptible body not a dead body?

My corruptible body is decaying and will die eventually. But, it's not dead yet. Is this too hard for you to understand? If so, then I'm not sure how you can understand anything.

This dead corruptible body will return to dust.

Give me even one verse that describes our corruptible bodies as being dead even before we die and our bodies are buried.

I suppose you think 1, 2, 3 Heaven means one on top of each other, which is a literal interpretation?

LOL. I'm not going to pretend I know exactly where the third heaven is located or how all that works. We'll find out one day.

Yet you can not see this corruptible body is literally, symbolically dead?

What? How can it be literally, symbolically dead? Are you just trying to make a joke here? How can something be literally, symbolically anything?

It is not literally physically dead.

Clearly not or else we couldn't be talking to each other.

The third heaven is a separate area of heaven, known as Paradise. Paradise is not at the very top of heaven. Paradise is the part of heaven closer than the angels (stars). It is known as 3rd, because we cannot see it in our "spiritual" blindness.

Oh, have you been there? You seem to know a lot about it despite the fact that we can't see it and very little is said about it in scripture.

Probably about cloud level as that is where Christ disappeared. Now if you could only see those permanent incorruptible physical bodies, instead of clouds. You would then know at the Cross, there was a resurrection. The first, physical, resurrection was to permanent incorruptible physical bodies that some only see as clouds. Or outright deny Scripture altogether guised as mere symbolism as substantial as clouds or hot air. The firstfruits, are all in Paradise in Christ. Lazarus was the primary example of a soul putting on a permanent incorruptible body, after being called out of the grave by the voice of Jesus Christ to everlasting life. Jesus did not call Lazarus out to go back to death. Jesus is not the Resurrection and temporary corruptible body. Jesus is the Resurrection and Life. That is why Paul claims any who deny the physical bodily resurrection are without hope.

In 1 Cor 15:20-23, Christ Himself is the firstfruits, so to conclude that anyone but Him has been resurrected yet with an incorruptible body means you're contradicting that passage.

Coping with the facts by using symbolism is not Scriptural. Yes it makes for great inspirational theology. This is not pushing literalism, void of symbolism, only pointing out the facts, literally instead of relying heavily on symbolism without concrete explanation.

Yeah, sure. Whatever you say.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 13, 2021

keras said:
Judgement Day is described in Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15.
Nothing remotely like what is described to happen on the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
1 Thess 1:6-10 is another description of the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. NOT a general, final Judgment.

I'm pretty sure you meant 2 Thess 1:6-10.

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

How can unbelievers being "punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord" not be a reference to final judgment? If that isn't a description of final judgment then I don't know what is.

DavidPT · Aug 13, 2021

keras said:
Judgement Day is described in Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15.
Nothing remotely like what is described to happen on the Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
1 Thess 1:6-10 is another description of the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. NOT a general, final Judgment.

Re our satellites; there was a Nat Geo article that stated how a small CME made some satellites go down to a lower orbit, thus shortening their life.
I imagine that John the Revelator, was puzzled by just about all that Jesus told him to write. Remember; it is the Revelation of Jesus.

Good luck with your 'Biblical reasoning', T.S. Made to suit what you want to happen.

In Daniel 7:9-10 it is during that judgment when the beast in Revelation 13 is cast into the LOF. Per Premil that occurs at His 2nd coming prior to the thousand years. Per Amil that occurs at the 2nd coming as well, but after the thousand years not prior to it. How can you then have Daniel 7:9-10 paralleling Revelation 20:11-15, and that make logical sense if you have the beast being cast into the LOF before the thousand years and then proposing that Revelation 20:11-15 is meaning Daniel 7:9-10, when it is obvious that Revelation 20:11-15 is after the thousand years?

Something I have pointed out to others that need to be pointed out again, in Daniel 7:9-10 no one other than the beast is being cast into the LOF at the time. And since we see in Revelation 19 that the false prophet also gets cast into the LOF, but that the FP is not mentioned in Daniel 7, maybe it is because the FP is the mouthpiece for the beast, so to speak. When the beast is cast into the LOF so is it's mouthpiece, the FP.

In Revelation 20:11-15 there is no beast being cast into the LOF. The beast has already been cast into it earlier. In Daniel 7:9-10 there are no humans being cast into the LOF at the time, they get cast into it at a later time. Revelation 19 proves this as well. Only the beast and FP are being cast into the LOF at the time. No one else is, not even the remnant Jesus slays in Revelation 19:21. John never says he also saw them cast into the LOF at the time. Nor does he even say he sees satan cast into the LOF at the time. That's some major details to leave out if he actually did see all of them being cast into the LOF when the beast got cast in there.

You couldn't possibly be correct, nor could anyone be correct that insists Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15 are involving the same judgment, thus the same time period.

keras · Aug 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
You couldn't possibly be correct, nor could anyone be correct that insists Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15 are involving the same judgment, thus the same time period.

You forget that Bible Prophecy is a little here, a little there.
It is obvious that Daniel 7:9-10 and Rev 20:11-15 are referring to the same Judgment.

Spiritual Jew said:
How can unbelievers being "punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord" not be a reference to final judgment? If that isn't a description of final judgment then I don't know what is.

The ungodly and wicked peoples in the holy Land, will be killed on the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. They will be dead.
But when they stand before God on His Great White Throne; after the Millennium, THEN they will be punished with everlasting destruction.
That 2 Thess 1:6-10 is about the Sixth Seal, is proved by how the Lord is revealed only to His own people. Revelation 14:1

Douggg said:
No CME in the sixth seal. And that the stars fall to earth is that as the second heaven is rolled up like a scroll, is the stars disappear on the horizon, not that they actually fall upon the earth's surface.

The sixth seal event is the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven, Matthew 24:29-30a.

A big Coronal Mass Ejection is the only way that all the prophesies about the Lord's terrible Day of vengeance and wrath, can literally be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12-17 is telling of much more than just a 'sign'.

The 'stars' fall like ripe figs. Like shooting stars, as we say now.
They will be our satellites and the sky, our atmosphere facing the sun; will be pushed aside as the mass strikes it.

Please someone tell me what is wrong with this scenario? It does explain exactly what the Bible tells us.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 13, 2021

DavidPT said:
In Daniel 7:9-10 it is during that judgment when the beast in Revelation 13 is cast into the LOF. Per Premil that occurs at His 2nd coming prior to the thousand years. Per Amil that occurs at the 2nd coming as well, but after the thousand years not prior to it. How can you then have Daniel 7:9-10 paralleling Revelation 20:11-15, and that make logical sense if you have the beast being cast into the LOF before the thousand years and then proposing that Revelation 20:11-15 is meaning Daniel 7:9-10, when it is obvious that Revelation 20:11-15 is after the thousand years?

Something I have pointed out to others that need to be pointed out again, in Daniel 7:9-10 no one other than the beast is being cast into the LOF at the time. And since we see in Revelation 19 that the false prophet also gets cast into the LOF, but that the FP is not mentioned in Daniel 7, maybe it is because the FP is the mouthpiece for the beast, so to speak. When the beast is cast into the LOF so is it's mouthpiece, the FP.

In Revelation 20:11-15 there is no beast being cast into the LOF. The beast has already been cast into it earlier. In Daniel 7:9-10 there are no humans being cast into the LOF at the time, they get cast into it at a later time. Revelation 19 proves this as well. Only the beast and FP are being cast into the LOF at the time. No one else is, not even the remnant Jesus slays in Revelation 19:21. John never says he also saw them cast into the LOF at the time. Nor does he even say he sees satan cast into the LOF at the time. That's some major details to leave out if he actually did see all of them being cast into the LOF when the beast got cast in there.

You couldn't possibly be correct, nor could anyone be correct that insists Daniel 7:9-10 and Revelation 20:11-15 are involving the same judgment, thus the same time period.

Using your logic someone could conclude that Daniel 7:9-11 isn't the same event as Revelation 19:20 because Daniel 7:9-11 doesn't mention the false prophet.

You tried to get around that by talking about a "FP is the beast's mouthpiece" explanation, but I found that to be completely unconvincing. So, I'd say it's safe to say that your logic is invalid.

To conclude that Daniel 7:9-11 is not speaking of the same event as Revelation 20:11-15 despite both being a judgment where the books are opened is like concluding that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are different events because the angels gathering the elect is not mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21. There is no basis for concluding that two passages can't be speaking of the same event just because they don't contain the same details. If they contained contradictory details, that would be one thing, but there's nothing in Daniel 7:9-11 that contradicts anything written in Revelation 20:11-15.

There's one other point I wanted to make regarding Daniel 7:9-11. Why are the books opened if only the beast (or only the beast and false prophet) will be cast into the lake of fire at that time? It makes much more sense that the books being opened implies that many people are about to be judged, just like what is portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15.

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Which belief are you the most confident on?

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