Micah ben Moresheth

keras said:

AFTER THE DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH AND THE EXODUS OF THE CHRISTIAN ISRAELITES OF GOD:
Who is God like You? You forgive the sins of the remnant of Your people, for to be merciful is Your delight. You will be true to Israel and keep Your promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 7:18-20

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How are you connecting Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the Church?

Instead, those verses pertain to the Jews over there in Israel right now.

keras said:

The book of the prophet Micah is not written in a chronological order, as Isaiah 28:13 says; Scripture is a little here, a little there – rather like putting together a jigsaw puzzle.
Below are all the verses of Micah, in a sequence based on history, the current situation and from other prophets. Chapter and verse numbers given after each quote. Some verses abridged.

THE FALL AND EXILE OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH:
Listen all you peoples, give heed, so that the Lord may bear witness among you. 1:2
Woe to all Israel, they sin against Me, therefore I will give the Land to your enemies. 2:1-6

I, Micah declare to the Israelites their crimes, your leaders should know what is right, but they take no care for My people, the Lord will hide His face from them. 3:1-12
Hear what the Lord is saying; You were told what is right, just and good and I blessed you.
Now I shall inflict severe punishments and exile on you. 6:1-16, 7:1-6

Israel has been conquered and now disaster will come to Judah, all of the Land and the Temple will be reduced to ruin. 1:5-16,2:1-11,4:9-10
[the Assyrian and then the Babylonian conquests]
The Israelites will rule Assyria, the people of Israel will be like lions among sheep. 5:5-9

Although Israel and Judah have fallen, they will rise again, they must bear His anger until He pleads their case and establishes their rights. 7:8-9
From Bethlehem will come Israel’s King, He is from the ancient past. Israel will be abandoned until He is born to them. 5:2-3a

THE PRESENT DAY:
Now, withdraw behind your walls, you people who live in a protected place, destruction is coming, the ruler of Israel will be injured. Do not trust any mortal, for your enemies may be anyone, but watch and trust in the Lord, He will save you. 5:1, 7:5-7

Many nations are now massed against Israel, they do not know the Lord’s purpose, for he has gathered them like sheaves on the threshing floor. My people will have supernatural strength and many nations will be crushed. 4:11-13
Even now, the Lord is leaving His dwelling place, He comes down and tramples the earth. In that Day, says the Lord, I shall destroy your cities, your military and all your idols. In My furious anger, I shall bring disaster on all the peoples who disobey Me. 1:3-4, 5:10-15

AFTER THE DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH AND THE EXODUS OF THE CHRISTIAN ISRAELITES OF GOD:
Who is God like You? You forgive the sins of the remnant of Your people, for to be merciful is Your delight. You will be true to Israel and keep Your promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 7:18-20
Let the nations see it and be silenced as they come in fear and trembling from their strongholds. 7:10, 7:16-17
Show us miracles as in the days of Egypt. 7:15

That will be the Day to rebuild and extend your boundaries. A Day when Your people will return to the Land from every place on earth. The rest of the world will become a waste because of its inhabitants.
God, shepherd Your people with Your strong arm, the flock that is Your own. They live apart, in a fertile Land, in Bashan and Gilead as in times past. 7:11-14
I will surely gather you and bring together the remnant of Israel, like sheep into a sheepfold. The One who opens the way will go before them, they will break through the gate, with the Lord at their head. 2:12-13

In that Day, I shall gather those who are lost, assemble the dispersed and those I have afflicted. I shall restore the remnant and turn them into a mighty nation. My Presence will be on Mt Zion and the promises made to you and the Land will be fulfilled. All your Lands will be restored to you. 4:6-8

Those of the people who survive will rejoin their brethren. Your leader will rise up and lead you with strength and in the Name of the Lord. You will enjoy security, in his power. 5:3b-4

THE MILLENNIUM REIGN OF JESUS:
In days to come, the mountain of the Lord’s House will be established, higher than other hills. People will come to it, saying: let us go to the Place of Israel’s God, that we may learn the right way to live. The Lord will judge with righteousness and there will be no more war.
We will all be loyal to the Lord. 4:1-5

THEN THERE WILL BE PEACE. 5:5

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Keras,
You are correct, the scriptures are a complicated puzzle that speak of the past, present and future, but often not in that order. It also appears God often condenses a few thousand years of time within just a few verses. I believe the Lord has intentionally done this so those who diligently seek him by prayerfully searching through his mysterious Word will be given revelation and understanding.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things that you have not known.

And just as iron sharpens iron its good for us to share our thoughts with one another on what these scriptural puzzles might represent. Just as God made the various parts of our physical body dependent on each other, he has also made the various members of his spiritual body to be interdependent on each others gifts from the Lord.

Since I have written on numerous scriptures that possibly reveal the approximate time of the tribulation, here are a few things to think about when you study Micah and the minor prophets.

The 29th and 30th books of Joel and Amos speak of God's coming judgement for northern Israel and Judah. While the 31st to 38th books of Obadiah to Zechariah may be symbolic for the years of the tribulation. The 40th book of Mathew that speaks of God's New Covenant for Israel may be symbolic 40th day of Yom Kippur at the end of the tribulation.

Jesus said he was the Aleph and Tav. The last letter Tav which means mark or covenant in ancient Hebrew is represented by a cross with a gematria of 400.

• 400 represents the years of Israel's affliction in Egypt before they were set free from slavery by the blood of the Passover lamb.
  
• And 4,000 years from Adam is when Israel was set free from their slavery to sin by faith in God's Passover Lamb when he died on the cross, represented by the letter Tav.
  
• Then on the symbolic 40th day of Yom Kippur at the end of the tribulation is when a remnant of Israel will be set free by faith in Jesus through a New Covenant. This is a past and future puzzle that could be hidden in the 22nd letter Tav.

Isaiah 31 to 38 may be a similar picture for the time of the tribulation. And Isaiah 38 when Hezekiah was miraculously healed from the point of death at the age of 38 could be symbolic for Israel's salvation from the point of death at the end of the tribulation.

Then in Isaiah 40, which I believe represents Jesus first coming and then his second on the prophetic 40th day of Yom Kippur at the end of the tribulation, it speaks of God's forgiveness for Israel. Just as the first and second coming of Jesus are revealed in the 40th book of Matthew, 1:17-18, 24:27.

Isaiah 40:1-5 Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. (2) Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins. (3) A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (4) Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. (5) And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

This is a prophetic puzzle for you to think about while you are searching through the minor prophets and Isaiah 31 to 40.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Micah. And if you discover anything in the scriptures I mentioned please share your insights with us.

keras said:

We Christians are the descendants of Abraham by faith, Galatians 3:26-29

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I don't disagree with that principle. But that would not connect the Church as descendants of Issac and Jacob.

keras said:

That belief is not Biblical, it is just a part of the 'rapture to heaven' theory; that is false and will never happen.

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I know some other things that are false and will never happen! CME, AOD in 2026, the PREDICTION of the Return of the Lord based on genealogies, etc. - Of course the Lord will Return - I'm saying an accurate PREDICTION cannot happen. He said so.

As for Micah - where did any of you get the idea Micah presents a future timetable, or even list of events? He lists a few theological hopes in the face of the judgement coming against Israel in Assyria and Babylon - but there's nothing clear about the timing or events.

keras said:

He was right about that, will he be right about the Lord's purpose to bring disaster on the nations that disobey Him?

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He will in that it will happen.
Beyond that, I'm not sure we are given any specific details that are pertinent to Christian theology.

But then Jesus and the Apostles DO spell out all we need to know about That Day. The following verses are about what happens when the Lord Returns on the Last Day - and none of it can be separated out without completely ignoring these verses.
* he will return like a thief, that is, predicting it is futile
* he will return with his angels and he himself is like a 'blazing fire'
* life will be PRETTY NORMAL with everyone marrying and giving in marriage
* judgement will come suddenly - and it is not just death but eternal judgement in mind - this event ushers in eternity, the New Heavens and New Earth

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24) and that he will Judge on the Last Day.
“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

MATTHEW 13
"The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."

MATTHEW 24:35-44
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.... “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

2 Thessalonians 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"

Also please note: the return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

keras said:

Do you read Revelation?

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Wrong question!
Start with the plainer, more straightforward parts of scripture and work back to the stuff you futurists squabble about forever. Amils are pretty much in agreement, with a few subtle differences in application here and there. Futurists? Well, just look at this forum. We have yourself squabbling with about 50 other futurists over what's going to happen when. All because 'understanding' Revelation in a futurist sense throws EVERYTHING into chaos.

It surely doesn't seem you take any notice of what Revelation prophesies. The clearly stated sequence of end time events.

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It's not a sequence - whatever gave you that idea when the 7's are inside 7's, and when the world ends so many times in Revelation? Like the great fire day you are so fond of at the end of Chapter 6. Most commentaries have that as a glimpse forward to judgment day.

The only thing you have correct above, is Jesus returning with His angels. At least thats better than what the fanciful 'rapturists' believe.

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Hooray! At least we have that and a physical afterlife in common.
But you STILL haven't dealt with how the clearer, plainer texts above talk about the Day of the Lord!
You have come a long way though. You've acknowledged that either those verses are true, or your understanding of Revelation is true. Something's eventually going to give....

I ask you to honestly try reading these verses SLOWLY.

What are they referring to?
Can you HONESTLY split events off the Day of the Lord being discussed?

Look at it: Angels, gathering, Judgement, Thief, Salvation, elements melting and new eternal heavens and earth (Eternity).

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24) and that he will Judge on the Last Day.
“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

MATTHEW 13
"The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."

MATTHEW 24:35-44
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.... “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

2 Thessalonians 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"

Also please note: the return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

keras said:

Amill cannot be right. We are not being ruled by King Jesus now...

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WOW! Is that what passes for Pentecostal doctrine these days?
It's time to change churches.

That future simply cannot be that nothing significant will happen, then unexpectedly Jesus will Return and Judge everyone, then commence Eternity in the New Jerusalem. This belief contradicts many scriptures.

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It makes the MOST sense of the clearer 2 Ages verses. You reading the highly symbolic in revelation OVER these verses is the hermeneutical crime.

There are two ages in the New Testament - THIS AGE - and the AGE TO COME - and the transition between the two is the Day of the Lord aka Judgement Day aka the Coming of the Son of Man. There's just no separating any of this out! The dead are raised and judged, the heavens and earth melt, the New Heavens and New Earth are installed and believers are saved into their eternal new home. All together - as far as I can tell - in a flash! So read the clearer statements in Scripture first, then try and understand the less clear after that. Let's look at the clear first.

THIS AGE looks like this:-
“homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

THE AGE TO COME looks like this:-
it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

keras said:

Obviously I am trying to discuss reality with someone who lives in lala land. Isn't 1 Peter 5:8-9 clear enough for you? Satan is the power in the world now,

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That doesn't say Satan has the power - just that he tempts.
Which is kind of the point of the tribulations we've been in for 2000 years (and counting) that John warns against. The temptation to trust in money instead of Jesus (with the Anti-Shema of the 666 on hands and forehead instead of the Shema prayer of devotion to God), the temptation to deny Jesus in the face of tyrants, the temptation to not trust Jesus when natural disasters or famine or sickness come.

even when Jesus was here, Matthew 4:8-9

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It's not really what we're talking about.
I think you have an over-realised eschatology of what is meant to be happening during the Millennium (gazillion years). Jesus reigns over the church and keeps the dead martyrs safe. (They died once, but he's protecting them from the second death.) He also limits Satan's kingdom as the gospel goes forth - Satan is bound in with regards to deceiving the nations. It's picture language. Learn to read the images!

I'll tell you what a crime is: It is refusing to read and accept plainly stated scripture.

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Funny that! So WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO DO EXACTLY THAT! Stop dodging the PLAIN verses I've been giving you and explain how you address them WITHOUT reference to your precious images that you can't actually understand.

These are the plainest verses about That Day - and you run from them as if they had the plague.

The following verses are about what happens when the Lord Returns on the Last Day - and none of it can be separated out without completely ignoring these verses.
* he will return like a thief, that is, predicting it is futile
* he will return with his angels and he himself is like a 'blazing fire'
* life will be PRETTY NORMAL with everyone marrying and giving in marriage
* judgement will come suddenly - and it is not just death but eternal judgement in mind - this event ushers in eternity, the New Heavens and New Earth

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24) and that he will Judge on the Last Day.
“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

MATTHEW 13
"The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."

MATTHEW 24:35-44
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.... “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

2 Thessalonians 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"

Also please note: the return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

keras said:

But 1 Peter 5:8-9 does say Satan is certainly NOT bound, as per Revelation 20:1-2.

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He tempts. What is Satan bound from doing in Rev 20?

"3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."

As the gospel marches forward into Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth - Satan's deception of the nations retreats.

Revelation 13:5-7,

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Weirdly - we have to go to Deuteronomy's 'Shema' - the prayer of devotion to God - to understand the mark of the beast.

Deuteronomy 6:4-8 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads."

Then when we come to Revelation 13, we have Military power represented in the first beast and the propaganda machine for Economic power in the second beast.

Now, what's with the 666? First, the Hebrew number symbolism is significant, in that 6 is the number of a man. It's the number of the day we were created on, the days of the week we work, and short of God's perfect 7.

There's also another potential twist - the gematria (taking Hebrew letters as numbers) for both "BEAST" and / or "Nero Caesar" apparently both equal 666 when added up from the Hebrew.

In other words, don't bind your politics and materialism to your hands and forehead. Don't worship your leader or money. Stay true to Christ - no matter what happens. Jesus is worth it. Instead - be one of those in the very next Chapter that have their Father's name written on their foreheads!

This video explains more - 11 minutes for the second half of Revelation - well worth it. Share at church!

Daniel 7:23-25.

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That's Rome

Obviously they must come alive again to have any possibility of a 'second death.

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WOW. Just wow. You really don't get Jewish symbolism at all, do you?

The Second Death is another way of speaking of that Death which really is DEATH - HELL!


The martyrs are safe in Christ. That's the point.

Revelation 20:4-6 plainly says that Jesus will bring the souls of those martyrs killed during the 42 month period of Satanic rule.

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You don't get the compare and contrast in Revelation. Sometimes it shows Satan as in control of earthly military and economic might (Rev 13), othertimes bound in a spiritual sense by the advance of the gospel. Babylon is compared and contrasted by the images of the eternal city. Revelation uses powerful images to motivate and alarm us, to comfort and encourage us. There's compare and contrast - and sometimes heaps of overlap to cover the same thing from a different angle. I'll hand you over to the Gospel Coalition:-

eclipsenow said:

He tempts. What is Satan bound from doing in Rev 20?

"3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."

As the gospel marches forward into Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth - Satan's deception of the nations retreats.





Weirdly - we have to go to Deuteronomy's 'Shema' - the prayer of devotion to God - to understand the mark of the beast.

Deuteronomy 6:4-8 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads."

Then when we come to Revelation 13, we have Military power represented in the first beast and the propaganda machine for Economic power in the second beast.

Now, what's with the 666? First, the Hebrew number symbolism is significant, in that 6 is the number of a man. It's the number of the day we were created on, the days of the week we work, and short of God's perfect 7.

There's also another potential twist - the gematria (taking Hebrew letters as numbers) for both "BEAST" and / or "Nero Caesar" apparently both equal 666 when added up from the Hebrew.

In other words, don't bind your politics and materialism to your hands and forehead. Don't worship your leader or money. Stay true to Christ - no matter what happens. Jesus is worth it. Instead - be one of those in the very next Chapter that have their Father's name written on their foreheads!

This video explains more - 11 minutes for the second half of Revelation - well worth it. Share at church!

That's Rome


WOW. Just wow. You really don't get Jewish symbolism at all, do you?

The Second Death is another way of speaking of that Death which really is DEATH - HELL!

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”"​

The martyrs are safe in Christ. That's the point.



You don't get the compare and contrast in Revelation. Sometimes it shows Satan as in control of earthly military and economic might (Rev 13), othertimes bound in a spiritual sense by the advance of the gospel. Babylon is compared and contrasted by the images of the eternal city. Revelation uses powerful images to motivate and alarm us, to comfort and encourage us. There's compare and contrast - and sometimes heaps of overlap to cover the same thing from a different angle. I'll hand you over to the Gospel Coalition:-

7 Reasons Tom Schreiner (Tentatively) Holds to Amillennialism

It would be hard to find a more gracious and humble commentator than Tom Schreiner. This is especially true when it comes to the controversy of what Revelation 20 teaches on the millennium.

Schreiner has recently written a full-length commentary on Revelation in the ESV Expository Commentary series. Schreiner’s colleague Rob Plummer—who wrote the commentary on James—calls it “the clearest and most helpful commentary on Revelation I’ve ever read.”

When it comes to the various and disputed end-time paradigms, Schreiner admits that he does not regard the exegesis behind the dispensational premillennial view or the postmillennial view very compelling.

Against dispensational premillennialism, he notes:

• The notion of a rapture seven years before Jesus returns is quite unlikely. (1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not describe a secret rapture. 2 Thessalonians 1–2 teaches that the punishment of the wicked, deliverance of the righteous, and gathering of the saints occur at the same time.)
• The notion of promises specially fulfilled for the Jews in the millennium is not even mentioned by John in Revelation 20. Nor is this idea found in the rest of the NT. Dispensationalists read their interpretations of OT prophecies into Revelation 20, but their interpretation is flawed, for the NT maintains that Jews and Gentiles are equally members of the people of God (e.g., Eph. 2:11–3:13). The notion of Jews having a special place in the millennium contradicts the NT witness that all believers are children of Abraham (cf. Rom. 4:9–17; Gal. 3:6–9).

Against postmillennialism, he writes:

• Scripture clearly indicates that evil will intensify before the end (cf. Matt. 24:9–31; 1 Tim. 4:1–3; 2 Tim. 3:1–5).
• Revelation 19:11–21 almost certainly refers to the second coming—not, as postmillennialists claim, to the routing of God’s enemies, leading to a long period of peace and prosperity on earth.

Therefore, he focuses on the historic premillennial and amillennial readings of the passage.

Contrary to the rhetoric of partisans on either side, he writes: “I include both views equally since it is difficult to decipher which view is correct, and readers should appreciate this difficulty.”

“Still,” he notes, “for the following reasons I tentatively opt for the amillennial view, although I have changed my mind more than once and feel uncertainty as I write.”

Here are his seven reasons.

[1. Scripture Nowhere Else Clearly Teaches a Thousand-Year Millennium]
First, nowhere else in Scripture is a thousand-year millennium clearly taught, and a new doctrine should not be founded on an intensely controversial text, especially from an apocalyptic book full of symbolism.

[2. Revelation 20 Might Be Telling the Story of Revelation 19:11–21 from Another Perspective]
Second, we have seen that Revelation is recursive and recapitulatory, coming to the end and then telling the same story again from a fresh perspective. John might be doing the same thing in Revelation 20, telling the story of Revelation 19:11–21 from another perspective.

[3. The Supposed Millennium Texts of the OT Don’t Appear in Revelation 20—But They Do in the New Creation Texts of Revelation 21–22]
Third, many of the texts allegedly speaking of the millennium in the OT (e.g., Isaiah 60 and Ezekiel 40–48) are not alluded to in Revelation 20.

What is even more striking is that these same chapters are copiously alluded to in Revelation 21:1–22:5. In other words, the so-called millennial texts are fulfilled in the new creation! This suggests the promises of a renewed world and new temple in the OT are fulfilled in the new creation, not in a millennium.

Some want to say the fulfillment is in both the millennium and the new creation, but it is hard to see how the new temple prophesied in Ezekiel 40–48 is fulfilled in any way in the millennium.

[4. The Early Church Fathers Were Divided on This Question]
Fourth, the early church fathers were divided on the millennium. Sometimes it is claimed the earliest fathers were premillennial, but Charles Hill has demonstrated the matter was disputed, and many were amillennialists. Hence, we cannot appeal to the early church to find a consensus on the matter.

[5. Who Are the Unglorified People in the Millennium If Jesus Destroys All His Enemies at the End of Revelation 19?]
Fifth, the historic premillennial view has difficulty explaining the unglorified people in the millennium, for when Jesus returns at the end of chapter 19, he destroys all his enemies.

It is straining to say that some were left on earth who survived Jesus’s return.

The NT clearly teaches Jesus’s return is the day of reward and judgment for all (Matt. 25:31–46).

[6. Scripture Nowhere Separates Out the Timing of the Final Resurrection, Final Judgment, Victory over Death, Arrival of the New Creation, and Second Coming of Christ]
Sixth, in Scripture the final resurrection, final judgment, victory over death, arrival of the new creation, and second coming of Christ are part of a total package.

There is no indication in any other text that these great events are separated.

[7. Amillennialism Fits Best with the Rest of the Scriptures]
Finally, we will see below that the premillennial reading of Revelation 20 has some very good arguments, but the amillennial reading has remarkable strengths too. And since the latter fits best with the rest of the scriptural witness, it should be favored.

Unfortunately, clarity will be lacking on this issue until Jesus returns. Fortunately, the central truth is that Jesus is indeed returning!​

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Why can't you simply go with the messages to the churches are pastorial on how Christians should live until Jesus Returns.

While Revelation 6-19 is end times prophecy on how God is going to end this sordid state of existence that mankind is in. And has been in ever since the fall in the garden of Eden.

???

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1Corithains 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Why don't you get on board with what God is going to do to end this sordid state of existence that mankind is in?

At the same time....