How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?
- Thread starter JohnB445
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LOL. How is my heart beating and how am I using my fingers to type this message if my body is dead? You just have some of the strangest beliefs I've ever seen. It's mind boggling.
Of course my body is corruptible rather than incorruptible, but that doesn't mean it's dead. It means it's decaying and will eventually die, but it's not dead yet, man. Don't rush it.
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Bob_1000
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Jesus being the tree of life would be analogous to Jesus being the lamb of God. Was a literal Passover lamb sacrificed? Yes but that lamb was only a foreshadow of the Lamb of God Jesus.
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You are clearly not reading Revelation 19 carefully enough. It is NOT just the beast, false prophet and their armies who Jesus will destroy at His return.
Revelation 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
How are you missing that it indicates that ALL PEOPLE (implying all people left on the earth at the time) will be destroyed when He returns? That is exactly what is indicated in passages like Matthew 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well.
No, the description of His robe being dipped in blood in Revelation 19 is a symbolic foreshadowing of what He is about to do at that point. The blood is not any more literal than the sword coming out of His mouth. What immediately follows is a description of Him killing His enemies. It's not meant to be understood that His robe was literally stained with blood from a previous day.
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How can you not think that a passage like the following is about His "Return in His anger and wrath"?
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Nonsense. Scripture clearly talks about Him returning like a thief several times. All of these passages are about His return:
Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
Revelation 16:“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
He clearly can't return after He comes like a thief in the night because the heavens and the earth will be burned up when that happens. These are clearly referring to the day He returns when He puts an end to His enemies and to wickedness once and for all.
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keras
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This is proved wrong by Matthew 24:31, where Jesus sends His angels to gather His faithful people to Him. Also, as in 1 Thess 4:17.
They will mainly be the people who will be kept in the place of safety; Revelation 12:14
I agree that all the ungodly wicked peoples will be dead, only righteous believers will go into the Millennium with King Jesus.
Symbolic nonsense.
Isaiah 63:1-6 tells us when and how Jesus gets His garments splashed in blood.
I reiterate; This is proof that the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath is some time before His Return. Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:17-20
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is a prophecy about the Sixth Seal event.
Proved by how Jesus is only revealed to His own then, not to the world.
Revelation 14:1 Is years BEFORE Jesus comes to reign as King.
Remember that Jesus said He would be with us always? Matthew 28:20
He has visibly revealed Himself to some people now, and will do so after the great test of our faith, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. 1 Peter 4:12
So you think its OK to refer to the glorious Return of Jesus, as a sneaky, unexpected appearance?
What you seem to have not seen, is the many prophesies that say how the Lord will be hidden on His terrible Day of fiery wrath. He actually remains in heaven, as Psalms 11:4-6 tells us and Amos 1 says He sends fire to destroy His enemies.
It is hopeless confusion to conflate the two events; the Day of wrath and the Day of glory, separate days, years apart.
What Revelation 19:11-21 does clearly say, is how Jesus will wipe ut the remainder of all of Satan's people, his great army gathered at Armageddon. By the Sword of His Word. NOT by fire at all.
That punishment is all over from Revelation 6:12 to Revelation 16:17-20.
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Nice try. Those passages don't prove what I said to be wrong whatsoever. I noted that He will destroy all people left on the earth at that time. Believers will not be on the earth as we will have been caught up to Him "in the air".
Are you too stubborn to acknowledge that your claim that Revelation 19 only indicates that He destroys the beast, false prophet and their armies at that time is wrong? It clearly says in Revelation 19:18 that He will destroy "all people, free and slave, great and small" at that time.
Now that is nonsense. Show me how your understanding of this matches what Paul taught about Christ's return. Good luck. Show me how your understanding of this matches anything that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. Again, good luck.
More nonsense. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is clearly about the return of Christ. Only doctrinal bias could prevent someone from seeing that.
Is that what I said? Absolutely not. It will be very clear to everyone once He does return. There will be no mistaking it. But no one knows the day or hour it will happen. For us, we are expecting Him to return, so even though we don't know the day or hour, we are still expecting Him to return, unlike unbelievers. So, we may be surprised for a moment when He returns just because of not knowing the exact time, but we will then immediately rejoice because we are expecting Him. For unbelievers, it's totally different because they aren't expecting Him. They will be caught completely off guard.
Nonsense. Passages like 2 Thess 1:6-10 make it clear that He will be revealed from heaven when He takes vengeance on His enemies. You need to allow the New Testament to illuminate the Old Testament for you. It's as if you think the Old Testament was written to give us insight into the New Testament, but it's the other way around.
What is hopeless is making any sense out of it by turning it into two events when scripture indicates they happen on the same day. As can be clearly seen in passages like Matthew 24:29-39, 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and 2 Thess 1:6-10.
How can you not understand that is a symbolic reference? Do you think He's going to have a giant sword coming out of His mouth that He uses to slay people? My goodness, where is your discernment?
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eclipsenow
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Matt 24 is plenty clear to me. But given all your baggage, it might not be clear enough for you, even though it finishes with the unfaithful servant being sent to "a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
But 1 Thess 4 is quite clear that when the Lord returns, it is not just 'a' CME judgement, but THE JUDGEMENT DAY that ushers in eternity.
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
That's because he DID remain in heaven as he judged the enemies of the Psalmist and Amos with armies marching across the land burning stuff! That's because THAT Day of the Lord was a local, historical judgement that has already happened.
But That Day, the Coming of the Lord, the Return of the Lord, Judgement Day - it's a blink of an eye, the raising of the dead, judgement for all enemies, salvation for all the faithful, and a new heavens and new earth. It's also the thief in the night. You're dancing around the truths in the plainer parts of scripture that we are showing you, and then trying to assert that the more metaphorical parts of scripture are plain.
It's a hopeless confusion to assert the OT prophet's metaphorical visions of warfare across the lands are a scientific CME while ignoring the plainest talk about the Return of the Lord in the New Testament because of your preconceptions.
Oh GIVE it a break! It's hardly a mechanical, scientific explanation of how Jesus will defeat his enemies. The Sword of Jesus = the Sword of the Spirit = the Word of God = the gospel message Jesus himself says judges. This is one of the more obvious messages about why God will judge people, and you're trying to set it up in oppositions to other verses about Judgement Day when JESUS HIMSELF says he will judge according to how people have responded to his word? Are you kidding me right now?
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keras
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No, you and SJ are kidding the Lord with your refusal to see and understand His amazing Plan for our future and our destiny on earth.
Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal judgement of the nations.
Then we will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.
We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.
We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4
The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, or any 'glorification', is not part of God's plan for His people. Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4
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eclipsenow
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Start with the New Testament - the Old Testament is confusing you. In the OT the "Day of Lord" is mostly predicting local, historical judgements and rarely discusses a distant, unrelated future 2500 years later! Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College.
While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment.
The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition
The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition
True.
See I thought we had to do that now, where-ever we are, and that promises for "The Land" were fulfilled in eschatological tension. Palestine? Irrelevant - because our Land is heaven! "make every effort to enter that rest" and Hebrews 11:6 "Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."
(Heavenly in that it's all about the New Heavens and New Earth. Like you, I believe in a physical afterlife. So at least we have that in common brother!)
Unfortunately this is where we disagree. There is no Millennium, no special Last Days end-times-table to try and decipher. There is only the once-for-all Return of the Lord where everything happens at once. You STILL haven't properly dealt with the NT verses we've quoted to you - and dance around the obvious conclusions in them.
The following verses are about what happens when the Lord Returns on the Last Day - and none of it can be separated out without completely ignoring these verses.
* he will return like a thief, that is, predicting it is futile
* he will return with his angels and he himself is like a 'blazing fire'
* life will be PRETTY NORMAL with everyone marrying and giving in marriage
* judgement will come suddenly - and it is not just death but eternal judgement in mind - this event ushers in eternity, the New Heavens and New Earth
Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24) and that he will Judge on the Last Day.
“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)
MATTHEW 13
"The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
MATTHEW 24:35-44
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.... “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
2 Thessalonians 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"
The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.
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keras
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An almost total rejection of the entire Prophetic Word.
This will happen:
Amos 9:13-15 The time is surely coming, says the Lord, when the one who plows shall overtake the one who reaps, and the treader of grapes, the one who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, all the hills shall flow with it.
I will restore the fortunes of My people, Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant them upon their Land and they shall never again be plucked up out of the Land I have given them.
That scripture promises restoration for a devastated land and a scattered people and it does so in a beautiful description of overflowing fertility in field and vineyard along with an unqualified pledge of “never again” for His faithful people, from every tribe, race nation and language, Christian believers, the Israelites of God, Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21, to be dispossessed.
Bible prophecy refers to a divinely established Utopia (Greek- good place) in which, God puts an end to this world of injustice and unrighteousness on earth and replaces it with a world of justice and righteousness on earth.
This end times Kingdom is the covenantal kingdom, brought to its ultimate perfection and ideal consummation, here on earth. Hebrews 8:8-12 It will last for 1000 years, as Revelation 20 clearly informs us.
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eclipsenow
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You just avoided everything put to you.
You just did a big rinse & repeat.
I'm not sure why you completely ignore the prophetic word in the New Testament and over-right historically fulfilled prophecies from the Old Testament over them all.
I mean, you think the Day of the Lord is associated with fire? So how on earth do you ignore this verse which shows the Day of the Lord - the great firey day - actually establishes ETERNITY!? is it just that you have other agendas you need to fit in so you completely ignore this rather plainly written verse? (Even though it involves the symbolism of fire to equate to the complete renovation of the laws of physics as this universe is made into something eternal.)
Fire = Day of Lord = Thief in night = ETERNITY
HOW do you IGNORE this verse?
2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"
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keras
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You mis-read 2 Peter 3:7-13
Up to verse 12; Peter describes the Day of the Lord's fiery vengeance and wrath. The Sixth Seal disaster, prophesied in the Bible over 100 times, as a terrible Day of extreme heat, violent storms, tectonic plate movement and huge tsunamis.
The only thing that can and will cause all of these worldwide disasters is a massive CME from the sun.
Then Peter says despite this terrible happening, we should look forward to when God will make all things new.
Which we know will happen after the Millennium, when God will send down the final fire to burn up His enemies. Revelation 20:9
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eclipsenow
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The Day of the Lord = The Day of God = That Day.
You cannot avoid this.
Also, the heavens disappear with a ROAR, and destruction BY FIRE show that it is the SAME DAY that the new heavens and new earth are installed.
You simply cannot avoid this no matter how you dance around these verses and try to chop them up and artificially dissect them with human words.
2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"
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keras
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Next prophesied event; the great Day of the vengeance and wrath of the Lamb, Revelation 6:16-17 Destruction by fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis.
But many people will survive it.
After at least 9 years; the great Day of Almighty God, the Sovereign Lord, Revelation 16:14, the glorious Return of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 19:16 Kills His enemies by the Sword of His Word.
Only the righteous, faithful Christians will survive to go into the Millennium.
Please quote the prophecy that says God will totally remove this present earth by fire.
Note; that Revelation 21:1 says: I saw a new heaven and earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had vanished and there was no longer any sea.
No mention of fire there, simply a disappearance.
No; ALL the Prophesies that describe fire and the works of man on earth being burned up, ALL refer to the Sixth Seal and later to the Fourth Bowl.
Time to get your beliefs correctly lined up with what the Bible actually says.
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eclipsenow
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I actually believe Rev 6 is the next event in our 'end-times-table'.
It's Judgment Day.
Er, no. The hypothetical question at the end indicates NO ONE can hide from the FACE of GOD! This isn't some silly celestial event, but the return of the GOD - MAN and JUDGE. For someone who says they take Revelation seriously, you really do hide from what it says, don't you?
Except that Revelation is not sequential, but parallel. It's not a timeline, but a waltz.
Oh I see - you're going to take a subtle difference in nuances as making this last event in Revelation TOTALLY different to the Thessalonians verses - but simply IGNORE half the text that describes your "Great Firey Day" because you want to AVOID what the text says - that this is JUDGEMENT DAY and the LORD HIMSELF is examining humanity with a laser-sharp scrutiny and no-one can hide?
Assertion is not evidence. The best evidence I've seen about what the OT prophets were actually concerned with is - I mean just imagine it! - THEIR GENERATION or the fate of Israel in or just after their lifetimes. Things like Assyria, Babylon, the Exile, the Return to the Land. That sort of stuff. Occasionally they would be given hints of a future child, or a Messiah King, but only hints. Not a timeline for you to fantasise about.
(Coughs with embarrassment) Um, pal, time for you to even get your head around what Revelation 6 says mate!
This is GOD returning. Who can withstand it? No one! This is a glimpse of the end. Now note how similar it is to 2 Peter.
REV 6
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
2 Peter 3:10-13
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells"
MATTHEW 13
"The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
Oh, yeah, I highlighted that last thing because "brightness" sometimes refers to God's blessing and holiness - like that Isaiah verse you misquote. Remember - it's time to get serious about the verses you quote and check them against good Reformed commentaries.
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keras
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For the Islamic attackers of Israel, the Sixth Seal is their doom. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 49:35-37
But much must happen from then until Jesus Returns and then He only Judges the nations.
The sheep, the righteous peoples and the goats, the ungodly peoples.
This immediately blows apart your 'All dead at the Return' belief.
As you say Rev 6:17 is hypothetical. Those people can and do save themselves by keeping under shelter for that 24 hours of the CME strike. We need to heed that advice too; Isaiah 26:20-21
A nonsense idea. One that twists and denigrates Gods Word. [Maybe you meant the 'Twist dance?]
I read Revelation just fine. It is confirmed by Daniel and all the other Prophets.
Revelation 6:12-17, is not God or Jesus Returning, it does not say that.
It is the Lord sending His fiery wrath onto the ungodly peoples. The event which will commence all the prophesies of Revelation, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
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eclipsenow
Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
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Sorry - what? That last line makes no sense to me and I'm sorry if I said anything like that.
As the PLAIN verses from gospels and epistles show - people are NOT all dead at Jesus return. Nor are they at the end of Revelation 6 when the Lord returns. There are good and bad living as they did in the days of Noah - with NO IDEA that eternal judgement is just moments away. Then boom! It all happens. That's what we see in Rev 6 - only it's dressed up in apocalyptic symbolism. But it's basically the same story as in the gospels and epistles.
Everything happens together.
I don't follow how you think ancient historical judgements of the prophets tie into reading Revelation 6 - it's more that the New Testament interprets the old.
A
I said the QUESTION is hypothetical because there IS NO escaping GOD when he returns. I don't read CME there. People don't ask to be protected from the burning sun. They say "“Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”"
Who can withstand it is hypothetical, because the answer is obvious when the Ancient of Days and the Lamb return. No-one.
It's not my fault you don't have a Phd in ancient Jewish symbolism like the people I read and watch.
It's confirmed by your circular reasoning, ironclad presuppositions, and strict avoidance of the PLAINER day of the Lord verses from the gospels and epistles.
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keras
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Verses like 2 Peter 3:7, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27 for example?
So glad I am not in the camp of those who trust Jewish symbolism for their Bible understanding.
Obviously something dramatic is happening in the Sixth Seal. You can't
say they are terrified by 'Jewish symbolism'.
Your almost desperate attempts to avoid the idea that the Lord would send fire from the sun, is something that you should seriously consider what your reason is for doing so.
And your belief that it all happens when Jesus Returns, constitutes a re-arrangement of Revelation.
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