How to balance safety vs other healtheffects regarding Covid

Job 33:6 · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
Spammy Spamestorsen

Quit derailing the topic. I'm not going to keep warning you.

mindfulzen · Aug 11, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
Quit derailing the topic. I'm not going to keep warning you.

Congratulation, first one to get on my ignorelist.

LeafByNiggle · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
Exactly my point. Easy to answer if you try, right? Regarding schools, I am in total disagreement with you. We have a finite amount of years to learn and socialize our kids, otherwise it is lost. Stunted development, and a social experiment to let a generation get inferior social skills and education. Especially with young kids, who needs the personal relation with teachers, looking them in the eye while explaining, and replying to questions, giving them a pat on the back, and joking some with them. Something is lost through zoom school. Their future is stolen from them, and it is sad. If this continues, it is 2 handicapped year at school, and a generation that lose out in the workplace later in life.

I thought that's what I said. We should return to in person learning.

Yes, the cry wolf is a good point, by being hyperbolic, and somewhat telling outright lies, as has been admitted with masks, you later pay a price in trust, so fewer get the vaccine.

There may have been some variation in masking advice, but I don't think any outright lies were told by the CDC or the NIH.

It was said that you did not need masks, and they said they did that, because there were not masks enough available, and they wanted it restricted to healthcareworkers.

At the time that was said, it was true. That was very early in the outbreak when it was still confined to a few nursing homes. There was no justification for the general public everywhere in the country to go out and buy N95 masks. It was not a lie.

Then they mandaterd it and said they worked, which they may or may not do, depending on the degree you think. They overpromised to calm folks.

That is a matter of interpretation. No competent health care professional ever promised that wearing a mask was a guarantee of anything. It only improved the odds. I know. I have been listening very closely for the past 1.5 years. That has always been the message.

So, as a result of that strategy, public trust was lost.

Only some of the public lost trust, and that loss of trust had been developing for more than 10 years. It just accelerated recently with the increased politicization of science and the rise of polarization due to social media.

And more stuff too. Had they just been honest and asked folks to do stuff, you would keep the trust. But seems like the authorities in the US distrusts it's citizens, and shield them from truths, because they think people go into panicmode, so lying is the default position.

There were no truths that the public was being shielded from.

It is so sad to see. An ask would be nice

Interesting that you mention "ask", because that's what they did here in Minnesota, and mostly people complied. We were wearing masks before it was a mandate. And we are starting to wear them again, even though there is no mandate.

Ponderous Curmudgeon · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
Exactly my point. Easy to answer if you try, right? Regarding schools, I am in total disagreement with you. We have a finite amount of years to learn and socialize our kids, otherwise it is lost. Stunted development, and a social experiment to let a generation get inferior social skills and education. Especially with young kids, who needs the personal relation with teachers, looking them in the eye while explaining, and replying to questions, giving them a pat on the back, and joking some with them. Something is lost through zoom school. Their future is stolen from them, and it is sad. If this continues, it is 2 handicapped year at school, and a generation that lose out in the workplace later in life.

Yes, the cry wolf is a good point, by being hyperbolic, and somewhat telling outright lies, as has been admitted with masks, you later pay a price in trust, so fewer get the vaccine. It was said that you did not need masks, and they said they did that, because there were not masks enough available, and they wanted it restricted to healthcareworkers. Then they mandaterd it and said they worked, which they may or may not do, depending on the degree you think. They overpromised to calm folks. So, as a result of that strategy, public trust was lost. And more stuff too. Had they just been honest and asked folks to do stuff, you would keep the trust. But seems like the authorities in the US distrusts it's citizens, and shield them from truths, because they think people go into panicmode, so lying is the default position. What a weird dynamic, like two liars hanging on to eachother and just hurt eachother because of no faith in eachother, so simple lies, is the only thing they know. It is so sad to see. An ask would be nice

Yes, we have your opinion, it is one of many, now can we get to actually trying to solve a problem?

Ponderous Curmudgeon · Aug 11, 2021

LeafByNiggle said:
At the time that was said, it was true. That was very early in the outbreak when it was still confined to a few nursing homes. There was no justification for the general public everywhere in the country to go out and buy N95 masks. It was not a lie.

And those of us who were going into nursing homes on a daily basis could not procure N95 masks, the recommendation to leave them to limited users was intelligent and relevant. Been there, done that.

SongOnTheWind · Aug 11, 2021

Before Covid, advice went a long way. We have dealt with viruses before without needing vaccine passports. Sars bird flue, mad cow disease, swine flu. People didn't go around willfully infect others, because they knew that would be wrong. We can all make our choices without hurting each other and without being restricted by a law.

Advise the 8 month pregnant woman not to bungee jump. Tell her why it's not a good idea. Strongly warn her against it. Do what you can. If she is reasonable, she will not want to harm her baby or herself. But let her be free. She is not a child herself, she can make her own decisions.

You know what boggles the mind? Everywhere I look on the streets, I see people with cigarettes dangling out of their mouths while they have their masks down. Don't ban cigarettes, because people have a right to die of lung cancer if they so wish. But ban the people instead. It doesn't make any sense to me. What kind of foolishness are we buying into? Cigarette smokers get a LOT of advice not to smoke, and they should, but it's their right. No one can take that away from them.

If anyone here smokes, I'm not trying to judge smokers. I definitely judge the covid lockdown and social distancing rules, though; and I am very suspicious of the people making all these rules themselves.

mindfulzen · Aug 11, 2021

LeafByNiggle said:
I thought that's what I said. We should return to in person learning.

There may have been some variation in masking advice, but I don't think any outright lies were told by the CDC or the NIH.

At the time that was said, it was true. That was very early in the outbreak when it was still confined to a few nursing homes. There was no justification for the general public everywhere in the country to go out and buy N95 masks. It was not a lie.

That is a matter of interpretation. No competent health care professional ever promised that wearing a mask was a guarantee of anything. It only improved the odds. I know. I have been listening very closely for the past 1.5 years. That has always been the message.

Only some of the public lost trust, and that loss of trust had been developing for more than 10 years. It just accelerated recently with the increased politicization of science and the rise of polarization due to social media.

There were no truths that the public was being shielded from.

Interesting that you mention "ask", because that's what they did here in Minnesota, and mostly people complied. We were wearing masks before it was a mandate. And we are starting to wear them again, even though there is no mandate.

If you have an outbreak of a pandemic, and it is doscouraged to use masks, that is a lie. And is in congressional protocols, look it up, along with all the other points I made regarding that. I am watching a game, do not give you sources, I made a thread about personal opinons, you started off well, now you seem lost, your choice.

Keep on point or not. Will not go on no derail, if I wanted to, game on TV. I started the thread so you could talk to the other side, not me. I have no strong feelings regarding this issue, other than you keep missing eachother. Sorry, you got me qrong if you think the matter, matters much to me.

mindfulzen · Aug 11, 2021

Ponderous Curmudgeon said:
Yes, we have your opinion, it is one of many, now can we get to actually trying to solve a problem?

No, not trying to solve that problem. The thread was about getting americans to talk to eachother. It is not a problem for me. It does not restrict me. It restricts you. I checked the guidelines today, I can do what my plans are the next days.

LeafByNiggle · Aug 11, 2021

Ponderous Curmudgeon said:
And those of us who were going into nursing homes on a daily basis could not procure N95 masks, the recommendation to leave them to limited users was intelligent and relevant. Been there, done that.

To be fair, mindfulzen's claim was not that it was an unwise decision, but that officials did not explain their true reason to the public.

LeafByNiggle · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
If you have an outbreak of a pandemic, and it is doscouraged to use masks, that is a lie.

At the beginning of the pandemic in the US, masks were not discouraged at the nursing homes where the outbreak was. They were only discouraged when talking to the whole nation at once, because it truth, they were not needed hundreds of km. from any infection. It was only after the outbreak because to be wide spread that masks were recommended for everyone everywhere in the US.

Ponderous Curmudgeon · Aug 11, 2021

LeafByNiggle said:
To be fair, mindfulzen's claim was not that it was an unwise decision, but that officials did not explain their true reason to the public.

Agreed, Very little was known, My knowledge of aseptic hood work filtration and sterilization etc. was way beyond the advice we were being given by management. The original policies not to recommend masks due to unavailability were only logical. But a lot has been learned since then, and harping on old decisions is not useful.

jacknife · Aug 11, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
My grandfather parachuted at the age of 77. And he had a great time. He died to covid roughly 1 year later.

I think it's fair to warn the elderly of the risk, but given that they are in the right mind, and aren't senile and confused, if they make a conscious decision on what they want to do, who am I to tell them no?

And their action to parachute doesn't endanger my personal life. Which is important to consider during the pandemic. If one person's actions increase risk to the life of another, it ought to be fair to warn, or even to prevent those actions depending on the level of danger they create.

Sorry for your loss Isaiah.

jacknife · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
This could fit in many categories. And will probably be derailed off topic as the other Covidthreads. This is about some groups in society, and loneliness, social need and need for an active life to stay healthy. I am thinking about kids and elders, and other groups who may be at risk, but has ill effects of being denied travel, activities, etc. Like elders over 70 years old, how can we even justify it being right to have any restrictions, when the median life expectancy is 75 years in many countries. How can we deny them anything, and not let them life full lives? I cannot justify locking up people in the later stages, dying in loneliness.

The same for kids, who go through a development, how can we justify restriction of any sort for them? And ex drugaddicts, people with mental issues, disabled folks, etc. I find any restrictions on those groups wrong, if they need a social life, for whatever reason. And this is regardless if they are vaccinated or not. Why do we not have a conversation about differentiating between vurlnerable groups, and others, when we talk restrictions. Can we see the individuals in this thread, and talk about how to do the best for theese groups isolated, not the general public. Their lifequality, and how to avoid a worsening in mental and physical health for vulnerable groups, because things has changed.

Please do not derail and destroy it, as the others. No spam like memes, and A4 pictures of irrelevant graphs, that 105% are awere of, to make it irrelevant. And only personal opinions, no endless pasting about what CNN or Fauci has stated. Hope the mods check in and remove such off topic stuff.

Is there any evidence to suggest these groups are suffering even more under covid lock downs then before them?

mindfulzen · Aug 11, 2021

jacknife said:
Is there any evidence to suggest these groups are suffering even more under covid lock downs then before them?

yes.

mindfulzen · Aug 11, 2021

LeafByNiggle said:
At the beginning of the pandemic in the US, masks were not discouraged at the nursing homes where the outbreak was. They were only discouraged when talking to the whole nation at once, because it truth, they were not needed hundreds of km. from any infection. It was only after the outbreak because to be wide spread that masks were recommended for everyone everywhere in the US.

Check congressional tapes. Ill adiviced because the US needed them to protect healthcareptrrovidors.

jacknife · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
yes.

Can you give me links?

mindfulzen · Aug 11, 2021

jacknife said:
Can you give me links?

Of course not. I asked your personal opinion on the issue, I am not your mommy

jacknife · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
Of course not. I asked your personal opinion on the issue, I am not your mommy

Oh okay.

jacknife · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
This could fit in many categories. And will probably be derailed off topic as the other Covidthreads. This is about some groups in society, and loneliness, social need and need for an active life to stay healthy. I am thinking about kids and elders, and other groups who may be at risk, but has ill effects of being denied travel, activities, etc. Like elders over 70 years old, how can we even justify it being right to have any restrictions, when the median life expectancy is 75 years in many countries. How can we deny them anything, and not let them life full lives? I cannot justify locking up people in the later stages, dying in loneliness.

The same for kids, who go through a development, how can we justify restriction of any sort for them? And ex drugaddicts, people with mental issues, disabled folks, etc. I find any restrictions on those groups wrong, if they need a social life, for whatever reason. And this is regardless if they are vaccinated or not. Why do we not have a conversation about differentiating between vurlnerable groups, and others, when we talk restrictions. Can we see the individuals in this thread, and talk about how to do the best for theese groups isolated, not the general public. Their lifequality, and how to avoid a worsening in mental and physical health for vulnerable groups, because things has changed.

Please do not derail and destroy it, as the others. No spam like memes, and A4 pictures of irrelevant graphs, that 105% are awere of, to make it irrelevant. And only personal opinions, no endless pasting about what CNN or Fauci has stated. Hope the mods check in and remove such off topic stuff.

Tell them to get over it, oh boo hoo you can't go to birthday parties, you ever been put on a ventilator? You ever slowley suffocate to death by yourself sedated in a hospital bed? I assure you feeling lonely is way better then that expirence.

Rescued One · Aug 11, 2021

mindfulzen said:
No, this is about the physical and mental health, and peoples wellbeing. It has almost been two years seclusion for many old folks with few years left, so I think this is the right place. Lifequantity vs lifequality, and if we agree that people with few years left, are denied to live them as full as they can.

Take another example, take a patient who is terminally ill with cancer or something, and doctors have said he has 2 years left till he is bedridden in a hospital, and just gets painrelief, they cannot help him anymore. Is it right to dictate that said person cannot interact and mingle with his loved ones the last years of his life? I think it is very wrong.

I agree 100%. I'm in my seventies. I'm not immune compromised. I ordered my grocleries online. They were deliverd to my front porch. I almost never had a chance to talk to anyone. It was horrible. And I only walked from my front door to my mailbox at the end of my driveway. When it was icy outside I had to be extremely careful. I have no exercise equipment. After I got the two vaccines, I could go to Walmart again, but my leg muscles were so weak that they really hurt before I had all the necessities in my cart.

When I was younger and lived in another state, we visited older relatives in their homes and in nursing homes.

I'm not complaining; I'm explaining. My dad had polio when he was in high school in the thirties. His dad fought in WWI and died in a VA hospital in another state when my father was only six years old.

How to balance safety vs other healtheffects regarding Covid

Freedom vs safety, safety over civil liberrties, safety vs the constitution

Freedom over safety

safety over freedom

safety over civil liberties

Civil liberties over safety

Safety over the constitution

The constitution over safety

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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