How confident are you about your rapture beliefs?

Spiritual Jew said:

The change is from natural bodies (corruptible, mortal) to spiritual (incorruptible, immortal) bodies. That will happen at the last trumpet when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:50-54). Your doctrine contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. That's the bottom line.

Scripture does not teach that "beings are physical in heaven as much as on earth". You never back up anything you say with scripture. The reason is that you have no scripture to back up what you say.

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Jesus does not switch back and forth between a spiritual body or physical body when ascending or descending.

Adam did not have a spiritual body in the Garden. He had a physical body. After sin, he still had a physical body. The difference is that one was incorruptible, and after he disobeyed, he was given a corruptible body. Both were physical bodies. The spirit is separate from the physical. The spirit goes on around the physical body. Paul gives plenty of verses explaining putting something on over the soul and body. John does also in Revelation.

Bob_1000 said:

Interesting, I haven't considered the passage in Revelation. Thanks, this gives me something to do some research on. I do believe that Jesus is the tree of life and that where ever he is is where the tree of life is.

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Jesus was the tree of life in the Garden of Eden?

Spiritual Jew said:

He very clearly said that the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the second coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17). Why do you deny what he taught in those passages? And he also said it would occur at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54), which means that Christ's second coming will occur at the last trumpet. In those passages he taught that all believers will be resurrected at the same time. That is very clear. Yet, you still deny it.

Jesus also indicated that all believers will be resurrected at the same time/event (with the added insight that unbelievers will be resurrected at that time as well).

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

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Your current physical body is dead. It needs a resurrection, no?

Spiritual Jew said:

Christians are not the seed/descendants of the nation of Israel. We are the seed/descendants of spiritual Israel. Paul differentiates between the two in Romans 9:6-8.

Where does Revelation speak of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and then destroyed?

Jesus was undeniably asked when the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed. Do you believe He didn't answer that question? If so, why wouldn't He have answered it?

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many prophecies have dual fulfillments. there's a lesser fulfillment that illustrates, and a total fulfillment later.
The sun darkened and there was an earthquake at the crucifixion, but Jesus spoke of those things happening at His return.

Timtofly said:

Jesus was the tree of life in the Garden of Eden?

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I don't thinks so. I think the tree of life in the garden was a foreshadow of Jesus just like most all things in the Old Testament were shadows of the real New Testament things.

Timtofly said:

Your current physical body is dead. It needs a resurrection, no?

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Are you kidding? No, my current physical body is not dead yet. That's why I'm able to respond to you while using my undead fingers to type this message.

Jamdoc said:

many prophecies have dual fulfillments.

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Such as?

The sun darkened and there was an earthquake at the crucifixion, but Jesus spoke of those things happening at His return.

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How are you concluding that what happened at His crucifixion and what will happen at His return is a dual fulfillment? A dual fulfillment of what prophecy exactly?

Also, how exactly does your response address my points and questions in post #159?

Spiritual Jew said:

Such as?

How are you concluding that what happened at His crucifixion and what will happen at His return is a dual fulfillment? A dual fulfillment of what prophecy exactly?

Also, how exactly does your response address my points and questions in post #159?

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Because old testament "day of the Lord" prophecies talk about the sun darkening in the daytime and earthquakes, but Jesus gave that same prophecy as a sign of His return, not His death. So His death on the cross was not the primary fulfillment, but it was a partial fulfillment of the day of the Lord prophecies to illustrate it.

also Antiochus Ephiphanes IV was a partial fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation, but it was not the primary fulfillment because Jesus gave the Abomination of Desolation as something to watch for a s a future event, and since that prophecy involves the Antichrist declaring himself God in the temple of God, no it wasn't 70AD, since that didn't happen, and it didn't result in Jesus returning shortly after.
That prophecy also ends in the temple being restored within a handful of years, but it certainly wasn't restored in 70AD, it was destroyed and.... well that's it.

Jamdoc said:

Because old testament "day of the Lord" prophecies talk about the sun darkening in the daytime and earthquakes, but Jesus gave that same prophecy as a sign of His return, not His death. So His death on the cross was not the primary fulfillment, but it was a partial fulfillment of the day of the Lord prophecies to illustrate it.

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You're not going to convince me of anything with just your words. Give me one specific example (one scripture reference) of what you're talking about and then we can discuss it.

also Antiochus Ephiphanes IV was a partial fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation, but it was not the primary fulfillment because Jesus gave the Abomination of Desolation as something to watch for a s a future event, and since that prophecy involves the Antichrist declaring himself God in the temple of God, no it wasn't 70AD, since that didn't happen, and it didn't result in Jesus returning shortly after.
That prophecy also ends in the temple being restored within a handful of years, but it certainly wasn't restored in 70AD, it was destroyed and.... well that's it.

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Which prophecy exactly in Daniel do you believe was partially fulfilled by Antiochus Ephiphanes IV? As far as the Olivet Discourse is concerned, I believe Jesus was specifically referring to Daniel 9:26 where it talks about the city and the sanctuary being destroyed because that relates to one of the questions the disciples asked.

Jesus was asked when the temple buildings would be destroyed and Luke 21:20-24 indicates that it would occur around the time when they saw Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, which is exactly what happened around 70 AD. I don't see any basis for seeing that as only a partial fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22/Mark 13:14-20/Luke 21:20-24. You don't need to resort to that in order to believe that the verses which follow those passages will be fulfilled in the future.

I believe within the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked about things that ended up happening in 70 AD as well as things that would happen after that up until His future second coming at the end of the age. But, I don't believe any part of what He said, such as Matthew 24:15-22, has a dual fulfillment. The dual fulfillment explanation is what I believe people resort to once they realize that they can't deny the past fulfillment of a certain prophecy. So, they resort to saying it's only partially fulfilled because they can't accept that it could be completely fulfilled. I just can't buy that.

Jamdoc said:

Because old testament "day of the Lord" prophecies talk about the sun darkening in the daytime and earthquakes, but Jesus gave that same prophecy as a sign of His return, not His death. So His death on the cross was not the primary fulfillment, but it was a partial fulfillment of the day of the Lord prophecies to illustrate it.

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Sort of - and I'm with you here - but sort of.
I think the Day of the Lord in the OT involved all those scary images of the sun darkening and earthquakes to represent big geopolitical changes. It's a kind of metaphorical hyperbole - like today's fast turnover of Australian Prime Ministers referred to as 'got knifed in the back again.'
Bible Project does a great job outlining this.

also Antiochus Ephiphanes IV was a partial fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation, but it was not the primary fulfillment because Jesus gave the Abomination of Desolation as something to watch for a s a future event, and since that prophecy involves the Antichrist declaring himself God in the temple of God, no it wasn't 70AD, since that didn't happen, and it didn't result in Jesus returning shortly after.

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Again, I have a lot of sympathy for your position here but would say it's not a dual fulfilment of the prophecy. Although the Daniel language of 70 weeks etc is difficult, and doesn't quite match a specific number of years exactly (but who knows - it might have been referring to rough fractions of time instead of actual years?) - I ultimately side with Antiochus fulfilling Daniel's AOD prophecy. Jesus then takes up this image to explain the destruction of the temple. Now in one sense that could have been the Romans sacrificing to Caesar's Eagle standard as outlined in Josephus. But in another sense, Jesus also said HIS BODY was the temple and would be rebuilt in 3 days. Many theologians I read today say that Jesus own death and resurrection could be viewed as what Jesus had in mind as the Abomination that causes the death of the sacrificial system!

That prophecy also ends in the temple being restored within a handful of years, but it certainly wasn't restored in 70AD, it was destroyed and.... well that's it.

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Yes! Exactly. It was destroyed and is no longer necessary. Some verses that back this up:-

Jesus says HE is the temple, and will tear it down and build it up again in 3 days.
(His death and resurrection.) Hebrews says we don't NEED a building, because Jesus is our temple. Basically the way the apostles and Jesus spoke of everything 'law' and 'temple' and 'sacrifice' make it clear that Jesus fulfils all those things so perfectly that there's simply no room for a literal Ezekiel temple. That was a vision of the perfection of Jesus acting as temple and sacrifice and living as the perfect Israel to fulfil the law perfectly.

Historians think Hebrews 8 was written before 70AD - while the current second temple still existed. What does Hebrews 8 make of the temple and temple system?




Going back to the temple would be as much of an abomination as going back to circumcision, food laws, and sacrifice. It would spit on what Jesus has accomplish. It's gospel-denying man-made religion. It's an abomination! It's heresy! It's un-Christian! The temple sacrificial system pointed to Jesus - not to itself. Jesus fulfilled and did away with all that.

Spiritual Jew said:

You're not going to convince me of anything with just your words. Give me one specific example (one scripture reference) of what you're talking about and then we can discuss it.

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Sorry for expecting bible literacy and not needing to spoonfeed scripture but okay

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

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Joel 2:31

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

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Luke 23

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

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Matthew 27

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

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So, we see old testament prophecy talking about the day of the Lord being marked with the sun being darkened and an earthquake, and there was the sun darkened and an earthquake at the crucifixion. Was that the fulfillment? No. Not the primary, it was a type fulfillment though.
Why?

Because Jesus gave those signs as signs of His return.
Matthew 24:29-30

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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When do those signs appear and the true fulfillment?
Revelation 6:12-14

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

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a book that I might remind you, was written after 70AD, a still future event.

Which prophecy exactly in Daniel do you believe was partially fulfilled by Antiochus Ephiphanes IV? As far as the Olivet Discourse is concerned, I believe Jesus was specifically referring to Daniel 9:26 where it talks about the city and the sanctuary being destroyed because that relates to one of the questions the disciples asked.

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Daniel 11 I forget the exact cutoff verse where people say it stops being about Antiochus, and I don't know what all Antiochus specifically did historically, I just know that a lot of people consider him a type fulfillment, and preterists consider him a true fulfillment, completely ignoring Jesus. talking about it as a future event.

There's also stuff like Daniel 8 which many people consider to be fulfilled but when it comes to the details, the Alexandrian Empire was split into more than 4 parts, and the Angel tells Daniel 3 times that the prophecy is about the end times. the Alexandrian Empire was not the end times.

Daniel 8

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

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Was the Alexandrian empire conquering the Persian Empire the time of the final indignation? Obviously not. Type fulfillment, but not true fulfillment.

Jesus was asked when the temple buildings would be destroyed and Luke 21:20-24 indicates that it would occur around the time when they saw Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, which is exactly what happened around 70 AD. I don't see any basis for seeing that as only a partial fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-22/Mark 13:14-20/Luke 21:20-24. You don't need to resort to that in order to believe that the verses which follow those passages will be fulfilled in the future.

I believe within the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked about things that ended up happening in 70 AD as well as things that would happen after that up until His future second coming at the end of the age. But, I don't believe any part of what He said, such as Matthew 24:15-22, has a dual fulfillment. The dual fulfillment explanation is what I believe people resort to once they realize that they can't deny the past fulfillment of a certain prophecy. So, they resort to saying it's only partially fulfilled because they can't accept that it could be completely fulfilled. I just can't buy that.

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Because details of past fulfillment differ from scripture. Unless God is making clerical errors, then it's not the total fulfillment.

The Abomination of Desolation which in Daniel 8 it is written that the temple would be cleansed after 2300 days.
70AD has no restoration of the temple.
If the Abomination of Desolation was 70AD?
Then God made a clerical error.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

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So type fulfillment, not primary fulfillment.

which means 3rd temple.
considering there are Jews chomping at the bit to build it
that's a prophecy waiting to be fulfilled.

Jamdoc said:

The Abomination of Desolation which in Daniel 8 it is written that the temple would be cleansed after 2300 days.
70AD has no restoration of the temple.
If the Abomination of Desolation was 70AD?
Then God made a clerical error.

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Unless of course that AOD was Antiochus and the 'cleansing' was the temple being restored afterwards.

So type fulfillment, not primary fulfillment.

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Not so fast - Antiochus.

Please also remember a lot of this 'Day of the Lord' language was apocalyptic hyperbole - with profound geopolitical changes like invasions being dressed up in the language of the heavens shaking etc because they represented judgements from God. Again....

which means 3rd temple. considering there are Jews chomping at the bit to build it
that's a prophecy waiting to be fulfilled.

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Absolutely not.

As I posted above, a third temple is NOT predicted in the bible and would actually be blasphemous. Jesus body acted as the fulfilment of the sacrificial system and temple, and now WE are the building of Christ. There is none other that matters. No future AOD, no future tribulation, no predictions or prophecies left to fulfil before That Day. Just the sudden, instantaneous return of the Lord on Judgement Day. Everything's been done. To say otherwise ends up undermining the sufficiency of the gospel.

I don't believe in the God of hyperbole.
what a disappointing God that'd be.

eclipsenow said:

No future AOD, no future tribulation, no predictions or prophecies left to fulfil before That Day. Just the sudden, instantaneous return of the Lord on Judgement Day.

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Unscriptural and illogical. Jesus will not Return to the world as it is today.

It is natural and quite right that Christians should engage in debate over what the Bible says about the last days and the Return of Jesus. After all, the Bible has a lot to tell us about these issues. Regardless of one’s worldview or faith, the Bible is an ancient and vitally important book that has shaped the course of history and will continue to in the future.

But how can it be that there are so many differing opinions as to what will take place? We do, [mostly] all agree on the most essential point – that is, Jesus will physically Return to earth. It is in the timing of His Return and who exactly is the nation, the people that He Returns to, that there is disagreement.

Jesus said; Do not assume that I have come to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34-36

Luke 12:49 I have come to set fire to the earth and how I wish it were already kindled.

Jesus makes statements that contradict today’s picture of Him as a gentle pacifist and seems to differ from what the angels announced at His birth, but it isn’t; they told of the beginning of this age of enmity between God and humanity and the eventual final reconciliation. Matthew 3:12, Psalms 110:5-6

Until that happens, we are still in that age of enmity and God must impose consequences on both our good and evil choices. We have free will, mostly so that we can freely love Him, because only freely chosen love is true love. Thus, if God only rewarded the good but left the evil unpunished, He would act arbitrarily, against His just nature and our free choices would be meaningless.


From Isaiah 63:1-6...I resolved on a Day of vengeance.... we have a graphic description of the Lord carrying out His just retribution against His enemies. The reason for their destruction is foretold in Romans 9:22-23.
Many other passages describe this soon to happen, terrible Day of the Lords wrath. This cannot be at the same time as the Return of Jesus, as the Day of the Lord is a worldwide event, whereas at His Return, Jesus disposes of the Beast, the False Prophet and the armies attacking Jerusalem.

The fact that the Lord’s garments become blood stained during His Day of vengeance, then - at His Return, it states that He “is robed in a garment dyed in blood”, this proves that the Day of the Lords fiery wrath is some time before His Return.

Isaiah 66:15-17 See; the Lord is coming in fire, His chariots like a whirlwind, bringing retribution in His furious anger. The Lord will judge with fire – by His sword He will test all mankind. Many will be slain by Him.

Many people today, combine prophecies like Isaiah 63 & 66, the wrath of the Lord, with the Return of Jesus. To do this requires that you allegorize either these verses or the accurate descriptions of His Return in Revelation 19, Zechariah 14:3-5 and Matt 24:30

Psalm 50:1-6 The Lord God has spoken and summoned the world. He shines from Zion, in His glory. He will not remain silent, a consuming fire goes before Him and storms rage around Him. The heavens and the earth look on at the judging of His people. Gather to Me, My loyal servants, those, who by sacrifice have made a covenant with Me. The heavens will proclaim His justice, for God Himself is judge. Ezekiel 34:11-16

The Lord’s loyal servants are gathered into Zion, all the Promised Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38 Then, it isn’t until later, when the Great Tribulation is over, that Jesus Returns, destroys His attackers, gathers all His people and reigns for 1000 years.

Therefore, the next event on the prophetic calendar is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal world changer.

Jamdoc said:

I don't believe in the God of hyperbole.
what a disappointing God that'd be.

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I do believe in the doctrine of scripture, that it is God-breathed and yet uses the language and metaphors and symbols of the times. Also, just asserting your emotional reaction to a proposition does nothing to indicate whether that proposition is true or not - and everything to do with your emotional reactions.

keras said:

It is natural and quite right that Christians should engage in debate over what the Bible says about the last days and the Return of Jesus.

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It is unnatural and wrong given Jesus said his return would be like a thief in the night.

eclipsenow said:

I do believe in the doctrine of scripture, that it is God-breathed and yet uses the language and metaphors and symbols of the times. Also, just asserting your emotional reaction to a proposition does nothing to indicate whether that proposition is true or not - and everything to do with your emotional reactions.

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and if any of the language regarding the end times is just a metaphor, that's a disappointment.
how disappointing would it be to learn that "eternal life" was not actually eternal
that "and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." is just a metaphor?

I can't remember if you are like this or not but a lot of people take the whole new earth to be a "metaphor" and just believe we die and go to heaven forever in an eternal church service
that'd be crushingly disappointing.

Jamdoc said:

and if any of the language regarding the end times is just a metaphor, that's a disappointment.
how disappointing would it be to learn that "eternal life" was not actually eternal
that "and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." is just a metaphor?

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Learn to distinguish what you're talking about.
There are OT Days of the Lord that are fulfilled in OT times - prophesies against specific nations that are invaded, or experience droughts and locusts, whatever. These are often also presented with associated apocalyptic language of the sun and heavens darkening / shaking / being moved etc.

I can't remember if you are like this or not but a lot of people take the whole new earth to be a "metaphor" and just believe we die and go to heaven forever in an eternal church service that'd be crushingly disappointing.

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Well no - that would ignore the much clearer writing we have from the New Testament, especially in the Epistles.

It's about recognising genres - and appreciating that each prophet has a specific time and culture and message - and that not all those messages can be blended into the same homogenous message about the Last Day. MOST are about their specific concerns, their 'little' Day of the Lord against Assyria, Babylon, Tyre, Israel, Judah, etc. OT prophets are very rarely actually talking about the Last Day.

Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College.

eclipsenow said:

It is unnatural and wrong given Jesus said his return would be like a thief in the night.

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I have asked you already to provide a verse that actually says Jesus will Return in His anger and wrath.
The verses which do say He comes in anger, do not refer to the Return in glory.
In vengeance and wrath and not seen; In glory and power, seen by all.

Proved by the sequence as given in Revelation, of the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, Revelation 6:12-17, being 13 chapters before the actual Return, with much that must happen between.
Any theory or doctrine that places the Sixth Seal at the Return is error and incurs the curses of Revelation 22:18-19

Also proved by the fact of Jesus Returning wearing garments already splashed in blood. From His Day of wrath; BEFORE the glorious Return for His Millennium reign. Matthew 24:29-30

You are wrong in the belief of Jesus Returning 'like a thief'. A most inappropriate description of our Lord Returning as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Bob_1000 said:

I don't thinks so. I think the tree of life in the garden was a foreshadow of Jesus just like most all things in the Old Testament were shadows of the real New Testament things.

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There was a tree, but the same tree.

If it was Jesus in the Garden, then it will be Jesus in the New Jerusalem. Still a tree when we view it. Still the same location in the Garden, in Paradise. You cannot remove it from physical reality either way. There were not two trees, unless there is not a tree at all. I tend to think God created physical phenomenon, not virtual reality just in our minds.