God`s Prophetic Days.

Spiritual Jew

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I did ask you a question, then I asked you another question in regards to that question. Questions are questions not statements. When someone puts a question mark at the end of a sentence, it usually means that what has crossed their mind, could this be why, thus they inquire about it? The person then has the opportunity to say, yes that is why, or no that is not why. I don't know why you are taking this to mean that I think my opinions are facts when I'm simply asking about something?
Maybe you need to read what you said again. Here it is:

DavidPT said:
Why would the fire not be literal in the LOF? Is it because you can't fathom the idea of God torturing ppl forever via literal fire in the LOF, so you then decide to water it down some so that being punished in the LOF doesn't appear to be as bad as it looks, though that is obviously what He is going to do, cast satan, demons, and humans, into literal burning fire, whether you like or not, whether you agree or not.
You see that part I bolded? Does that look like a question to you or a definitive statement on your part as if you were stating an irrefutable fact?
 
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eclipsenow

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When Amil's read the whole New Testament we see that the Day of the Lord -when Jesus returns - is it. There is no more, no in-between ages, no end-times-table. The Lord suddenly and unpredictably returns and EVERYTHING changes in an instant.

There are two ages in the New Testament - THIS AGE - and the AGE TO COME - and the transition between the two is the Day of the Lord aka Judgement Day aka the Coming of the Son of Man. There's just no separating any of this out! The dead are raised and judged, the heavens and earth melt, the New Heavens and New Earth are installed and believers are saved into their eternal new home. All together - as far as I can tell - in a flash! So read the clearer statements in Scripture first, then try and understand the less clear after that. Let's look at the clear first.

THIS AGE looks like this:-
“homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

THE AGE TO COME looks like this:-
it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

THE DAY OF THE LORD / LAST DAY looks like this

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24)

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

(Much of the material here adapted from the following source.)
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger
 
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DavidPT

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Maybe you need to read what you said again. Here it is:

You see that part I bolded? Does that look like a question to you or a definitive statement on your part as if you were stating an irrefutable fact?


What you bolded is simply what I see as fact and that you don't. For example. I see it as fact, and so do you, that Jesus is God, yet JWs don't. Does that then mean because someone does not see that as fact, it is then not fact? Just because JWs don't believe Jesus is God, does this then means He isn't? It doesn't matter what they believe or don't believe, Jesus is still God, regardless.

In the same way, if God is going to torment humans with literal fire in the LOF, it doesn't matter whether you believe that or not, He's going to torment humans in the lake of fire via literal fire. It's not just Revelation 20 where it mentions fire as being part of the punishment, it also mentions fire in Luke 16, and in Matthew 13:42 and Matthew 13:50, to name a few. If God is capable of allowing His Son to be viciously tortured on the cross, one is to believe He is not capable of having humans viciously tortured via literal fire in the LOF?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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What you bolded is simply what I see as fact and that you don't.
So, why did you deny that you stated something as a fact in that post and acted like all you did was ask questions?

For example. I see it as fact, and so do you, that Jesus is God, yet JWs don't. Does that then mean because someone does not see that as fact, it is then not fact? Just because JWs don't believe Jesus is God, does this then means He isn't? It doesn't matter what they believe or don't believe, Jesus is still God, regardless.
That's not a good analogy. The difference here is that there is a lot more evidence in scripture to support our belief that Jesus is God than there is to support your belief that God will torment people with literal fire in the lake of fire. There is overwhelming evidence for Jesus being God in scripture to the point that we can safely say that it's a fact that scripture says He is God. But, where are such scriptures that clearly speak of people being tormented with literal fire for eternity?

In the same way, if God is going to torment humans with literal fire in the LOF, it doesn't matter whether you believe that or not, He's going to torment humans in the lake of fire via literal fire.
In your opinion. Your opinion on that does not have anywhere near the amount of support that we can come up with to show that Jesus is God. Can you acknowledge that?

It's not just Revelation 20 where it mentions fire as being part of the punishment, it also mentions fire in Luke 16, and in Matthew 13:42 and Matthew 13:50, to name a few. If God is capable of allowing His Son to be viciously tortured on the cross, one is to believe He is not capable of having humans viciously tortured via literal fire in the LOF?
Why are you comparing the temporary suffering of Jesus on the cross to eternal suffering in the LOF? That makes no sense to compare the two.

Why do you insist on all of those passages you referenced as speaking of literal fire, but you deny that 2 Peter 3 is speaking of literal fire burning up the earth? Where is the consistency in that? You seem to act like every reference to fire in scripture is referring to literal fire except for 2 Peter 3. How convenient.

Other scriptures speak of unbelievers being cast into outer darkness (Matt 8:12, Matt 22:13, Matt 25:30). How can it be outer darkness if there's literal fire everywhere?
 
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Marilyn C

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THE DAY OF THE LORD / LAST DAY looks like this

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Hi eclipse,

We need to remember that the revelation of the Body of Christ was NOT revealed by the Lord till He gave it to the Apostle Paul. So we ask, "What was the Lord referring to in Matt. 13?

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,....` (Rom. 15: 8)

When Jesus was manifest on earth He was confirming to Israel the PROMISES made to their fathers. Thus the `harvest at the end of the age,` refers to THEIR future, NOT ours!
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi eclipse,

We need to remember that the revelation of the Body of Christ was NOT revealed by the Lord till He gave it to the Apostle Paul. So we ask, "What was the Lord referring to in Matt. 13?

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,....` (Rom. 15: 8)

When Jesus was manifest on earth He was confirming to Israel the PROMISES made to their fathers. Thus the `harvest at the end of the age,` refers to THEIR future, NOT ours!
This is not true at all. Do you think that nothing written in the gospels pertains to us? I don't understand your way of thinking at all.

Please read the following:

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Here, Jesus is refers to His sheep from Israel and then says that He has "other sheep". If you have any discernment at all, you should be able to discern that when He referred to His "other sheep" He was talking about Gentile believers there. Israelite and Gentile believers would become "one flock" and that "one flock" is the body of Christ consisting of Jew and Gentile believers together as one. So, the idea that Matthew 13:40-43 can't be about us is not true.

Matthew 13:40-43 is a parable of what will happen to believers at the end of this temporal age (we will shine as the sun in the kingdom of our Father) and to unbelievers at the end of this temporal age (they will be cast "into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth").

Matthew 13:47-50 is also a parable about what will happen at the end of the age.

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus does not talk in terms of Israelites being divided at the end of the age. No, He talked in terms of good/righteous people and bad/wicked people being separated at the end of the age. Jesus made it clear that anyone who is not with Him is against Him (Matt 12:30). The good fish represent the righteous and are those who are saved and with Christ and the bad fish represent the wicked which are those who are lost and against Christ. This is how the parable of Matthew 13:24-30 (explained in Matthew 13:36-43) should be understood as well (except the righteous and wicked are represented by wheat and tares/weeds instead of good fish and bad fish).
 
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Marilyn C

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This is not true at all. Do you think that nothing written in the gospels pertains to us? I don't understand your way of thinking at all.
.

Hi SJ,

Let`s have a look.

So when the Lord was talking to the blind man to go and wash in the pool of Siloam, was He talking to you or me?

When Jesus was saying, "You white washed sepulchres," was He talking to you or me?

However when Jesus was talking about the Father so loving the world that He gave His Son,...yes that is for all.

But the parables are what Jesus is confirming to the Jews. The parables speak of their inheritance, which is to rule over the nations of the world. The prophets spoke of this and Jesus` parables refer to them.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi SJ,

Let`s have a look.

So when the Lord was talking to the blind man to go and wash in the pool of Siloam, was He talking to you or me?

When Jesus was saying, "You white washed sepulchres," was He talking to you or me?

However when Jesus was talking about the Father so loving the world that He gave His Son,...yes that is for all.
Yes, so that means some of what is written in the gospels pertains to us, which is my point. Thank you for proving my point.

But the parables are what Jesus is confirming to the Jews. The parables speak of their inheritance, which is to rule over the nations of the world. The prophets spoke of this and Jesus` parables refer to them.
His parables were often about the kingdom of God/heaven. The kingdom of God does not only pertain to the Jews, but pertains to all Jew and Gentile believers. I don't understand why your thinking is so Israel-centric when the New Testament is focused mainly on Christ and the church rather than Israel and the Jews.
 
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Marilyn C

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Yes, so that means some of what is written in the gospels pertains to us, which is my point. Thank you for proving my point.

His parables were often about the kingdom of God/heaven. The kingdom of God does not only pertain to the Jews, but pertains to all Jew and Gentile believers. I don't understand why your thinking is so Israel-centric when the New Testament is focused mainly on Christ and the church rather than Israel and the Jews.

Glad we can agree on that - Jesus spoke to individuals, to the people of Israel and truths that pertain to us.

Yes Jesus spoke much about the `kingdom/rulership of heaven` to the people of Israel for that was their inheritance. The Prophet Daniel spoke about this, that the God of heaven would set up a kingdom/rule through Israel over the nations of the world. And His rulership through them would be righteous.

`in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom/rule which shall never be destroyed.` (Dan. 2: 44)

`Then the kingdom/rule and dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms/rule under the whole earth shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.` (Dan. 7: 27)
 
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