Eternal Security

BNR32FAN said:

Amen my whole point is that our beliefs must line up with all scripture, so if there are verses that contradict our beliefs then we have to reevaluate our beliefs in order to coincide with all scripture. It’s not a matter of this verse trumps another verse it’s a matter of all scripture is true.

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Yeah, I try to do that also. People often have problem to fit Sermon on the mount with Paul. I have come to some kind of resolution (I hope I use the word correct).

Brightfame52 said:

Its Jesus responsility that the Sheep believe, and continue to believe, so that they dont perish like He promised. You teach that Christs Sheep can quit believing, stop being a Sheep, and perish. You totally disregard Christs promise and ability to keep His promise that His Sheep shall not perish. You say the opposite !

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We’ve already explained how John 10:28 can be understood without contradicting 2 Timothy 2:12. You haven’t. Your understanding of John 10:28 contradicts 2 Timothy 2:12. So until you can come up with some sort of explanation as to how 2 Timothy 2:12 doesn’t contradict the doctrine of eternal security your claims are nothing but empty words with no scriptural support.

BNR32FAN said:

No Paul is not warning the church, this is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy. Both of the epistles to Timothy are personal letters not addressed to any congregation but addressed directly to Timothy alone. That’s what makes this particular verse so powerful because it is from Paul to Timothy whom we know that both were true followers of Christ and if these two true followers of Christ were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them, then this is concrete evidence that even true believers can lose their salvation if they turn away from Christ.

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Good point. You are correct.

I agree as well that, since the letter was written to Timothy, Paul is addressing true believers, with a warning against rejecting Lord Jesus.

However, Timothy was directed by Paul to share this with the Church...

2 Timothy 2:11-14 (NIV)
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Blessings.

setst777 said:

Good point. You are correct.

I agree as well that, since the letter was written to Timothy, Paul is addressing true believers, with a warning against rejecting Lord Jesus.

However, Timothy was directed by Paul to share this with the Church...

2 Timothy 2:11-14 (NIV)
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Blessings.

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Amen

setst777 said:

Good point. You are correct.

I agree as well that, since the letter was written to Timothy, Paul is addressing true believers, with a warning against rejecting Lord Jesus.

However, Timothy was directed by Paul to share this with the Church...

2 Timothy 2:11-14 (NIV)
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

Blessings.

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What does it mean if we are faithless he remains faithful?

zoidar said:

What does it mean if we are faithless he remains faithful?

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I believe it means that He is faithful to do what He said He would do with those who deny Him because He cannot contradict Himself. I can’t see that this would mean that we would still be saved if we don’t continue in our faith.

BNR32FAN said:

I believe it means that He is faithful to do what He said He would do with those who deny Him because He cannot contradict Himself. I can’t see that this would mean that we would still be saved if we don’t continue in our faith.

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Hm, could it mean He is still faithful to Himself and to His plan?

Like you say, I don't think it means we would still be saved being faithless.

The believer has been passed front death unto life. John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

The words is passed are the verb metabainō and means:

1. to pass over from one place to another, to remove, depart
   

To be removed from one place to another

Also the words are in perfect tense in the greek denoting a completed action in the past with results into the present, its a permanent change from death to life ! The believer is having eternal life and shall not come into condemnation, not ever ! Thats another Promise of Christ that He is responsible for establishing !

zoidar said:

Hm, could it mean He is still faithful to Himself and to His plan?

Like you say, I don't think it means we would still be saved being faithless.

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I don’t know, I can’t think of any scriptural reference to support that hypothesis.

Brightfame52 said:

The believer has been passed front death unto life. John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

The words is passed are the verb metabainō and means:

1. 
   
   
   • to pass over from one place to another, to remove, depart

To be removed from one place to another

Also the words are in perfect tense in the greek denoting a completed action in the past with results into the present, its a permanent change from death to life ! The believer is having eternal life and shall not come into condemnation, not ever ! Thats another Promise of Christ that He is responsible for establishing !

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The perfect tense does not imply that the present state cannot be reversed especially when there’s a condition present. Even Journey made it clear “Don’t Stop Believin”.

zoidar said:

What does it mean if we are faithless he remains faithful?

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2 Timothy 2:!3 13
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

What is meant by this quote is that Lord Jesus remains faithful to His promises - guaranteed. And, each Christian appropriates those faithful promises of God to himself by remaining in the faith.

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

However, not all Christians will remain faithful, and will fall away from the faith, for instance, by deliberate sin, being deceived, or allowing one's self to be caught up in the things of this world, and so lose our faith. This is true even though God remains faithful to carry out His promises to those who continue in the faith toward Him.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 (WEB) 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 4:5-7 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

1 Thessalonians 4:6-8 (NIV)
The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able."

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB) 5 Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know about your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Jude 1:21 (WEB) 21 Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:4-5 (WEB) 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB)
21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

So although God is faithful to His promises, and God remains faithful, the ones who appropriate those faithful promises of God to themselves are those who remain in the faith.

No Passages teach us that God guarantees our faith to the end, that we will stand firm, continue, or endure, in the faith, or that we will overcome.

The responsibility is on YOU to remain faithful to inherit the promises of God.

What is for sure is that, those who were in the faith but fell away were actually Christians, because they were in the faith, but later fell away. So, all the “IF” statements are conditional on the Christian to remain faithful to inherit all the sure promises of God.

Biblewriter said:

It is simple nonsense to even pretend that the continuous nature of the Greek Present tense even implies continuing into the future.

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In the Greek, the present always remains present, no matter how much time goes by.

Biblewriter said:

By saying that the Greek present tense represents continuous action, They mean that is represents something that IS HAPPENiNG, not that it means something that MUST CONTINUE TO HAPPEN.

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Not according to the Greek grammar. That is something you made up. You are trying to make rules for classical Greek that are not there.

Biblewriter said:

The wrested interpretation you are building on this anmoly of the Greek language would, if ot were true, completely destroy MANY of the explicitly stated promises of the Bible.

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The Greek present tense does not destroy any promises in the Bible, rather, you have an erroneous understanding of God's promises based on your doctrine.

BNR32FAN said:

The perfect tense does not imply that the present state cannot be reversed especially when there’s a condition present. Even Journey made it clear “Don’t Stop Believin”.

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I think I understand what you mean.

Blessings

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t know, I can’t think of any scriptural reference to support that hypothesis.

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It just sounds wrong to me that God is faithful to punish those who live in unfaithfulness. Faithful sounds to be a direction towards something positive. That's the sense I get, could be wrong though.

Edit: I saw Setst777 gave a good response to this. #252

setst777 said:

2 Timothy 2:!3 13
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

What is meant by this quote is that Lord Jesus remains faithful to His promises - guaranteed. And, each Christian appropriates those faithful promises of God to himself by remaining in the faith.

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

However, not all Christians will remain faithful, and will fall away from the faith, for instance, by deliberate sin, being deceived, or allowing one's self to be caught up in the things of this world, and so lose our faith. This is true even though God remains faithful to carry out His promises to those who continue in the faith toward Him.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB)
Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Romans 11:19-22 (WEB) 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Hebrews 3:13-15 (WEB)
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB)
35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB)
16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) Speaking to His followers
11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 (WEB) 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Galatians 6:9 (WEB) 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we do not give up.

Ephesians 4:5-7 (WEB)
5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

1 Thessalonians 4:6-8 (NIV)
The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able."

2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB) 5 Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know about your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

Jude 1:21 (WEB) 21 Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:1 (WEB) 1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

1 Timothy 6:10-12 (WEB)
10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.

1 Timothy 6:18-19 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (WEB) 20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

James 1:12-16 (WEB)
12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB)
10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Revelation 2:10-11 (WEB) 10 Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 3:4-5 (WEB) 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Revelation 3:21 (WEB)
21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB)
7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

So although God is faithful to His promises, and God remains faithful, the ones who appropriate those faithful promises of God to themselves are those who remain in the faith.

No Passages teach us that God guarantees our faith to the end, that we will stand firm, continue, or endure, in the faith, or that we will overcome.

The responsibility is on YOU to remain faithful to inherit the promises of God.

What is for sure is that, those who were in the faith but fell away were actually Christians, because they were in the faith, but later fell away. So, all the “IF” statements are conditional on the Christian to remain faithful to inherit all the sure promises of God.

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Thanks! Sounds right! Yeah, of course it must be His promises God is faithful to! You didn't need to quote hundred verses to get your point through though.

zoidar said:

It just sounds wrong to me that God is faithful to punish those who live in unfaithfulness. Faithful sounds to be a direction towards something positive. That's the sense I get, could be wrong though.

Edit: I saw Setst777 gave a good response to this. #252

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Well the word pistos means of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties. There are a few other definitions but I don’t think they can apply to this situation.

Biblewriter said:

Actually,in this case, the perfect tense, "has passed from death into life," coupled with the future tense "shall not come into judgment," means exactly ghat. that the present state cannot be reversed.

For it is an undeniable fact that any life that has been lost was NEVER eternal.

Eternal life does NOT mean a life that has the potential to last forever. It MEANS a live that WILL NEVER END. And the Bible clearly says that whoever believes in Jesus ALREADY HAS eternal life.

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Another drive by reply. Are you ever going to address 2 Timothy 2:12 or will you just keep running from that for the rest of your life? I’ve asked several times already.