THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

Davy · Aug 6, 2021

martin-luther2 said:
Okay. I was nearly 60 years old when I even heard of the term soul sleep. Our church had this preacher candidate who preached the horrors and blasphemy of soul sleep. I was suspicious of the sermon and the reason that sermon was the one he chose to present to us. Luckily, we rejected him. Additionally, I think we would have roundly rejected somebody who professed in soul sleep.

I do remember a verse in Thessalonians I think where it mentions we shall not all sleep.

Us Baptists liked to talk about talking to Jesus when we're gone, meeting our dear departed relatives. So we wouldn't particularly fertile field for that type of belief.

What bothers me Is the reason why parties in Christianity obsess about this both positively and negatively. It just smacks of a totally non-essential belief, and heterodox.

That may be an all and well promotion for certain denominations who don't always stay with what's written in God's Word, but soul sleep is an old Jewish superstitious belief, which that is where that false idea originated. What seems to be a new belief among certain Jews today is the false idea that the soul is dead when the flesh is dead. That idea is actually a falsehood pushed by Satan and his servants.

Davy · Aug 6, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You say where is the text that says the dead do not know anything? You were posted the scripture that says word for word the dead do not know anything and you say it does not say the dead do not know anything?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 [5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead do not know anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Why do you think that when the scripture says word for word that the dead do not know anything it does not really say the dead do not know anything?

Sorry I am a little confused by your response or why you say you disagree.

That Eccl.9 verse is a favorite of the soul sleep crowd. A simple reading of that reveals that it's about those who perish in the lake of fire, without Christ. Who else would this apply to, "for the memory of them is forgotten", and "neither have they any more a reward", than the unsaved who perish in the future lake of fire?

To not understand how our spirit with soul continues after flesh death means one is NOT heeding the New Testament Scriptures, because the NT reveals life and consciousness after flesh death. So those stuck on the soul sleep idea show they follow the Old Testament ideas of the religion of the Jews about this subject.

Davy · Aug 6, 2021

Butch5 said:
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)

Can't know anything without thoughts.

But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

The breath or spirit of God gives man understanding. We are told in Scripture that when a man dies that breath or spirit returns to God. Since it is the breath or spirit that gives man understanding, if it is gone so is man's ability to understand.

That's Old Testament Jew reasoning that the Pharisees believed, and is still taught by orthodox Judaism. It is not Christianity. And it's very... easy to reveal it as fallacy.

For example:

In John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be "born again" to enter into the Kingdom of God. In the Greek, "born again" means 'born from above'. And that is the theme Lord Jesus is teaching there, that our spirit must be born from above by God's Spirit. That begs the question then...

If our spirit is just some force that returns to God at flesh death, like a drop of water out of the Great Ocean (i.e., symbolic of God), and at flesh death that spirit is absorbed back into God, then it would literally mean 'we' no longer exist, period. There would be no memory of our previous existence even! It's really a stupid idea, and one easily seen as coming from someone like Satan himself.

Our 'spirit' inside us is what is "born again" in Jesus Christ. And it continues past flesh death...

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV

LoveGodsWord · Aug 6, 2021

Davy said:
That Eccl.9 verse is a favorite of the soul sleep crowd. A simple reading of that reveals that it's about those who perish in the lake of fire, without Christ. Who else would this apply to, "for the memory of them is forgotten", and "neither have they any more a reward", than the unsaved who perish in the future lake of fire?

To not understand how our spirit with soul continues after flesh death means one is NOT heeding the New Testament Scriptures, because the NT reveals life and consciousness after flesh death. So those stuck on the soul sleep idea show they follow the Old Testament ideas of the religion of the Jews about this subject.

I do not believe in soul sleep. According to the scriptures the body returns to the dust and the Spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it. Most of us, wait in the grave until the resurrection at the second coming.

Butch5 · Aug 8, 2021

Davy said:
If you doubt that our soul does not continue in life after our flesh is dead, then it means you doubt Lord Jesus and His Word...

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

That in red of course means, just because the flesh dies, the soul does not, but continues to have life.

1 Peter 3 about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached The Gospel to at His resurrection is also proof that we are not literally asleep in the grave when our flesh dies. Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 also verified this fact.

It's really those who follow the religion of the Jews that keep pushing the idea that the soul is literally asleep when we die.

Jesus didn't say anything about the soul continuing after death. He said don't fear those who are not able to kill the soul. If the soul continues after death then please explain how Jesus' soul died.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 KJV)

Jesus poured out His soul to death. I think you should reconsider your understanding of Matt 10:28

If you look at 1 Peter 3 it's pretty clear that Jesus made a proclamation to spirits after He was raised from the dead. They were spirits, not people. He didn't preach the gospel to them, He proclaimed His authority over them, they were spirits, like angels and demons.

You're also misunderstanding 2 Cor. 5. It's about the resurrection, not about being alive after death.

The soul isn't asleep when one dies, it ceases to exist. When the dead are said to be asleep it is a metaphor, a figure of speech. They are not sleeping, they are dead.

Butch5 · Aug 8, 2021

Davy said:
That's Old Testament Jew reasoning that the Pharisees believed, and is still taught by orthodox Judaism. It is not Christianity. And it's very... easy to reveal it as fallacy.

For example:

In John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be "born again" to enter into the Kingdom of God. In the Greek, "born again" means 'born from above'. And that is the theme Lord Jesus is teaching there, that our spirit must be born from above by God's Spirit. That begs the question then...

If our spirit is just some force that returns to God at flesh death, like a drop of water out of the Great Ocean (i.e., symbolic of God), and at flesh death that spirit is absorbed back into God, then it would literally mean 'we' no longer exist, period. There would be no memory of our previous existence even! It's really a stupid idea, and one easily seen as coming from someone like Satan himself.

Our 'spirit' inside us is what is "born again" in Jesus Christ. And it continues past flesh death...

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV

Firstly, that passage is the word of God. Are you trying to refute the word of God?

Jesus didn't say anything about "our" spirit being born again. He told Nicodemus he had to be born again. Jesus said Nicodemus had to be born of water and the Spirit. There's nothing there about Nicodemus' spirit.

The "our" spirit is the breath of life from God. It is something of God, not man. Man is not a spirit.

BNR32FAN · Aug 8, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD - WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

Hi all hope for a friendly discussion please based on the scriptures.

I see that there seems to be some confusion on what the scriptures actually teach on what happens when we die. So what is the state of the dead? Do we remain dead until the second coming where there the the scriptures teach those who have died in Christ will be resurrected? Or do we go to heaven when we die? These of course are contradictions in themselves.

According to the scriptures death is referred to by Jesus as a sleep which is a metaphor for death that we awake from at the second coming's resurrection. So what does the bible teach on the state of the dead? I will post some of the scriptures on what I believe happens when we die and we can investigate all of the other scriptures on what others might think it means (hoping for friendly discussion please)

WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD OR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?

JOHN 11:11-13 11, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPS; BUT I GO, THAT I MAY AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP. 12, Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13, HOWBEIT JESUS SPAKE OF HIS DEATH: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14, Then said JESUS UNTO THEM PLAINLY, LAZARUS IS DEAD.

Jesus says that death is like a sleep and a metaphor for death we wake up out from when he resurrects us. This is a key scripture here so I separated this scripture from all the scriptures provided below from the old and new testaments that describe what happens when we die...

(Note: I might ask some questions here but I am not going to provide the answers on purpose here because it is best if you can prayerfully ask God and see the answers in the scriptures provided for yourself)...

Here is a list of a lot of scriptures you may want to investigate on the topic of the state of the dead or soul sleep or what happens when we die according to the scriptures if your interested and have some time if this topic is new to you...

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE?
(you find the answers prayerfully from the scriptures below)

Death is referred to as a sleep which is a metaphor for death in scripture...

A.: [To be dead or in death is referred to as a sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead/asleep] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

The dead do not know anything in sleep until Jesus returns...

B.: [The dead knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

When we die we go to the grave...

C.: [The dead are in the grave/s], sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]]Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

Righteous and dead in Christ are raised to life at the second coming...

D.: [Those in Christ resurrected from the grave/death/sleep at the second coming]1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Corinthians 15:50-55; Philippians 3:10-11; Danial 12:2

Wicked resurrected to the 2nd death...

E.: [2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

The wicked in the second death are destroyed and forever...

F.: [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4
John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

Additionally, it is the righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14), for God is a consuming fire [to sin and of Love] (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29) and His ministers a flame of fire (Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7) and His Throne of Fire (Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5) and His speech fire (2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8) for He is a purifying fire (Malachi 3:3) and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire (Revelation 15:2), and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed (Exodus 3:3), not the wicked [they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished.

..................

Why you might be asking is the above topic important to understand? Well it is very important as it leads into a correct understanding of the resurrection and God's judgement and what happens at the second coming as well as prepares us to be ready to avoid the great deceptions from Satan that will happen just prior to when Jesus returns so we can be prepared to meet Jesus and remain faithful to the end. The doctrine of purgatory, eternal burning Hell or heaven once we die is a false teaching that has led many away from the scriptures to the teachings of men that is not biblical.

God bless...

How does this all make sense in comparison to Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man? None of them appeared to be sleeping.

BNR32FAN · Aug 8, 2021

Butch5 said:
Jesus didn't say anything about the soul continuing after death. He said don't fear those who are not able to kill the soul. If the soul continues after death then please explain how Jesus' soul died.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 KJV)

Jesus poured out His soul to death. I think you should reconsider your understanding of Matt 10:28

If you look at 1 Peter 3 it's pretty clear that Jesus made a proclamation to spirits after He was raised from the dead. They were spirits, not people. He didn't preach the gospel to them, He proclaimed His authority over them, they were spirits, like angels and demons.

You're also misunderstanding 2 Cor. 5. It's about the resurrection, not about being alive after death.

The soul isn't asleep when one dies, it ceases to exist. When the dead are said to be asleep it is a metaphor, a figure of speech. They are not sleeping, they are dead.

That doesn’t mean Jesus’ soul died it means that His soul was released from His body when He died. After He died He went and preached to Spirits who were imprisoned.

BNR32FAN · Aug 8, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi newlightseven, nice to meet you. Your view here is what mainstream Christianity teaches but as you can see in the posts and in the scriptures in these posts above yours this teaching is not biblical according to the scriptures.

You really should’ve included a table of contents in that OP

Butch5 · Aug 8, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
That doesn’t mean Jesus’ soul died it means that His soul was released from His body when He died. After He died He went and preached to Spirits who were imprisoned.

You might want to read it again. He poured out His soul to death. It means what it says. It may not fit what you believe, but it means what it says.

BNR32FAN · Aug 8, 2021

Butch5 said:
You might want to read it again. He poured out His soul to death. It means what it says. It may not fit what you believe, but it means what it says.

So then His soul was dead for 3 days?

Butch5 · Aug 8, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
So then His soul was dead for 3 days?

From the time He died on the cross until He was resurrected.

BNR32FAN · Aug 8, 2021

Butch5 said:
From the time He died on the cross until He was resurrected.

So how did He go and preach to the Spirits in prison during this time?

BNR32FAN · Aug 8, 2021

Butch5 said:
From the time He died on the cross until He was resurrected.

1 Peter 3:18 says He died in the flesh but was made alive in the Spirit.

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Butch5 · Aug 8, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
So how did He go and preach to the Spirits in prison during this time?

He didn't. The proclamation was made after He was raised from the dead.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 KJV)

Notice He was put to death, then raised, he then went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison.
Notice too, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him. That was the proclamation.

Butch5 · Aug 8, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
1 Peter 3:18 says He died in the flesh but was made alive in the Spirit.

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

It's not in the spirit. If you want to look at it here's a link to an Interlinear Greek English Bible. Just scroll down to verse 18.

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1pe3.pdf

It's by the Spirit that God raised Christ from the dead.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

We can see from Paul that God used the Holy Spirit or breath, to raise up Jesus. It will be the same with people later.

BNR32FAN · Aug 9, 2021

Butch5 said:
It's not in the spirit. If you want to look at it here's a link to an Interlinear Greek English Bible. Just scroll down to verse 18.

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1pe3.pdf

It's by the Spirit that God raised Christ from the dead.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

We can see from Paul that God used the Holy Spirit or breath, to raise up Jesus. It will be the same with people later.

It’s hard to say because G1161 doesn’t typically translate to “in” or “by” so Romans 8 could be referring to the resurrection of His body not necessarily His Spirit. I don’t see any verses that imply that His Spirit actually died. The gospel accounts say that He gave up His Spirit or yielded His Spirit.

“And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:50‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hebrews 10:10 says that we were sanctified in the death of His body and even 1 Peter 3:18-19 says that He died in the flesh.

“By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So I’m not seeing any sufficient evidence that Jesus’ Spirit actually died. The only mention of spirits actually dying that I’m aware of is after Judgement day when they are thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus’ deity is Spirit so if His Spirit died that would mean that He ceased to be for 3 days and I don’t think that would be possible for God.

Butch5 · Aug 9, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
It’s hard to say because G1161 doesn’t typically translate to “in” or “by” so Romans 8 could be referring to the resurrection of His body not necessarily His Spirit. I don’t see any verses that imply that His Spirit actually died. The gospel accounts say that He gave up His Spirit or yielded His Spirit.

“And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:50‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:30‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hebrews 10:10 says that we were sanctified in the death of His body and even 1 Peter 3:18-19 says that He died in the flesh.

“By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So I’m not seeing any sufficient evidence that Jesus’ Spirit actually died. The only mention of spirits actually dying that I’m aware of is after Judgement day when they are thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus’ deity is Spirit so if His Spirit died that would mean that He ceased to be for 3 days and I don’t think that would be possible for God.

I would submit that Romans 8 is referring to the body. The Greek word used there is "dia" it's usually translate through as in agency. In other words, it's the instrument that something is accomplished by. For instance, if I said I bought my tickets through a broker, I'm indicating that the broker was the instrument by which I acquired the tickets. Paul said that it's the spirit through which Christ was raised. In other words, God raised Christ by means of the Spirit.

But, it's not spirit it's soul that is at issue. Isaiah 53 says He gave up His soul unto death. But, this is a discussion that may involve the Trinity which is not what this thread is about. We're talking about the average guy and what happens to him. I've studied the word soul and it's usage through the Bible and it can be seen to mean the whole person. We are told in Gen 2:7 what a soul consists of.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

We're told here that God created man from the dust of the earth then breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. From this we learn a few things. One, we learn that man consists of the dust of the earth or the elements of the earth. We also learn that a soul consists of two parts, the man (body) and the breath of life from God (God). The NKJ translate this, and the man became a living being. That's actually a great definition of the word soul. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It's used in a concrete sense, of a living being. And, it's used in an abstract sense of life itself. We see that the spirit is something that comes out of God. So we have two components that come together to form something new. If a soul is the combination of the man (body) and the breath or spirit of life from God, what happens when those two components separate? If God retrieves that breath or spirit what happens to the soul? I think it's pretty clear that it would cease to exist as it's components are no longer together. We're told that when the breath or spirit separates from the body, that it returns to God. We're also told that the man (body) returns to the dust. Where does that leave us? If the soul has ceased to exist, the breath or spirit of life has returned to God, and the man (body) has returned to the dust what is left to live on after death? Nothing. There is nothing left.

We've seen what man consists of, the elements of the earth. God Himself confirms this, He said to Adam,

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

He told Adam that he was dust and would return to dust. A lot of Christians believe that man is more than dust. That he is a soul and/or spirit that lives on after the body dies. If that were the case then God should have said, for a spirit or soul you are. He didn't say that. He said for dust you are. The word "you" indicates person. He was talking to the person of Adam.

But, what do those elements form? God plainly tells us that also.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen. 6:3 KJV)

Man is flesh. We have it straight from God. So those elements are flesh. So again, we come to the question, if the soul ceases, the breath or spirit of life returns to God, and the man( body, flesh) returns to the dust, what remains to live on?

NotreDame · Aug 9, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
See post 187 linked. @Butch5 posted the question to you. I am sorry I do not believe you. Scriptures already provided why in the OP and on the posts provided on page one. Your only repeating yourself here again so no need to answer it again. As to Jude 1:9 do you know what Jude is quoting from?

You’ve misunderstood the Scriptures. Jude does not support anything you’ve said. There’s nothing in Jude supporting your idea Moses was already resurrected. And no person can Biblically have experienced resurrection before Christ. Christ as the first to be resurrected is in the Bible and expresses his primacy over death, the First to defeat death.

Second, Paul’s writings are inconsistent with your notion of some unconscious stage after death.

“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 but we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:6-8

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;” Philippians, 1:21-23.

Paul isn’t discussing a departure from the body to a stage of unconsciousness. Paul is unequivocal, leaving the body is to be with the Lord.

And as long as your view continues to teach a doctrine inconsistent with the writings of Paul above, I will post a reply arguing why your doctrine is not sound Biblically. Your view is inconsistent with Paul’s writings.

Second, “Abraham’s Bosom” was a phrase in common usage among the Jews in Palestine and in Judaism before and during the time of Jesus. “Abraham’s Bosom” appears in the Talmud, and is a reference to where to righteous dead proceed after death.

This is consistent with the development of Sheol during the second temple period as being the place for the unrighteous dead.

Your view is inconsistent with Paul’s writings, lack factual support, and the verses you cite for support do not explicitly or imply a state of unconsciousness after death.

NotreDame · Aug 9, 2021

Butch5 said:
Also, I don't subscribe to soul sleep. From what we see with the creation of man the logical conclusion is that the soul ceases to exist at death.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

If Paul thought that immediately upon death he would be with Christ, why did he tell the Corinthians that if there is no resurrection, those who had died in Christ had perished? Why didn't he tell them that they were immediately with Christ? He didn't. The only hope he holds out for these dead believers is the resurrection. Apart from that they'd perished.

Also, some food for thought. Why do you suppose there isn't a single statement to that effect in Scripture? Why does the idea have to be inferred? If, as so many claim, believers go to Heaven when they die and are with Christ, don't you think we'd find at least one verse of Scripture that tells us that?

Or, you could be misunderstanding those passages. In order for you're interpretation to be correct it would have to be possible for man to live on after death. Since it's not possible for man to live on after death, you must have misconstrued those verses.

I’m not misunderstanding those verses. I am taking a plain text reading and understanding of those verses.

Those verses very plainly say Moses was present on the mountain with Jesus. That’s your problem because Moses on the mountain with Jesus is inconsistent with your theory. And you’ll need more than a mere proclamation the verse isn’t to be understood by a plain text meaning.

You didn't answer my question. Is there a reason?

Yes, the reason is an answer is irrelevant. A particular theory X may be shown to be false by some fact. While the fact that falsified a theory cannot at the moment be adequately explained doesn’t mean the theory X isn’t falsified.

So, to use Popper Falsification, one counterfactual shows a theory is false. All swans are white. The observance of a black swan eatablishes the statement false. Now, it may not be understood how a black swan came to exist at the time but the existence of the black swan disproves the statement.

Same here. I do not have to understand or have an answer. The fact is Moses on the mountain top with Jesus disproves a state of unconsciousness after death.

I appreciate you giving me your understanding of the passages, but, unless you can prove that man can live on after death, I have to conclude that you don't understand those passages. Your contention that these passages disprove my theory is based on the premise that your understanding of these passages is correct. If it's not, then they don't prove my theory wrong.

There’s no showing my reading of the plain text is incorrect. None.

Actually, there's not. Moses wasn't walking around with Jesus. That was a vision of the Second Coming. Paul was stating a desire, not a theological fact. Claiming his departure from life would immediately put him with Christ is an assumption. If Paul had thought that immediately upon death he would be with Christ, why did he say this?

The plain text says Moses was walking with Jesus. In fact, Moses was talking to Jesus about Jesus’ departure from Jerusalem. There’s nothing in the text to indicate Moses wasn’t there.

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