4 Reasons Revelation is not a future timetable: John says so!

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,291
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,162.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Sure they did. But when 2011 came and went, and no confirming of the covenant, that made that combination not the one.
I cannot understand why tens of millions of false futurist predictions don't somehow taint the whole endeavour for you and just put you off this line of thinking?
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,674
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,157.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I cannot understand why tens of millions of false futurist predictions don't somehow taint the whole endeavour for you and just put you off this line of thinking?
Because we do not want to be guilty of ignoring or belittling God's Prophetic Word.
There are very many plain indications that we are the last generation of this Church age.
One of them is that scoffers would do their best to denigrate and attempt to refute the Message of the forthcoming end time events. 2 Peter 3:1-7
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,291
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,162.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Because we do not want to be guilty of ignoring or belittling God's Prophetic Word.
Belittling is a bit strong don't you think?
Amils are gospel hearted people that just read the prophets with vastly more care and respect than you do!

There are very many plain indications that we are the last generation of this Church age. One of them is that scoffers would do their best to denigrate and refute the Message of the forthcoming end time events. 2 Peter 3:1-7

You see - this is another perfect example of how your poor bible reading leads you to be incredibly uncharitable and why so many people on these forums have trouble relating to you.

I don't scoff THAT he will return as the people in this passage do - who forget God has judged in the past. Indeed, I see many examples of the Day of the Lord in scripture reminding me that he DOES keep his judgements!

I scoff THAT you or anyone else here will KNOW when he returns.
IN THE VERY NEXT VERSE, PETER HIMSELF SCOFFS THAT ANYONE CAN KNOW WHEN! He says it will come like a thief.

So the irony is, this passage actually asks you about your arrogance in trying to predict when - not me and my 'scoffing' that you've invented.

Also note, it's not just the earth that's going to get burned on the Day of the Lord - but the heavens and earth. This is eternity-shaping language.


3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Spiritual Jew
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,674
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,157.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Belittling is a bit strong don't you think?
No.
The Amill belief not only belittles Revelation 20, the six mentions of the 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus, it rejects God's Plan of 7000 years for mankind.
Amils are gospel hearted people that just read the prophets with vastly more care and respect than you do!
I do that too. But Amils have another agenda for the end times; which is basically; there is no end times, Jesus Returns and that is that.
I see many examples of the Day of the Lord in scripture reminding me that he DOES keep his judgements!
And those Judgment/ punishments will happen when the Prophets say they will. Next to come is the Sixth Seal one.
Then the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, with the last Bowl being Armageddon. Revelation 16:13-18
After the Millennium, God will sit on His great white Throne and everyone who has ever lived will stand before Him. Revelation 20:11-15
I scoff THAT you or anyone else here will KNOW when he returns.
IN THE VERY NEXT VERSE, PETER HIMSELF SCOFFS THAT ANYONE CAN KNOW WHEN! He says it will come like a thief.
Have I ever said I know when; the Day the Lord will strike the earth with His fiery wrath? I may have suggested we can know, but I don't post a date.
We do know the hour; Zephaniah 2:4 says it will happen at mid day ME time.
it's not just the earth that's going to get burned on the Day of the Lord - but the heavens and earth.
The 'heavens', the 'ouranios', refers to our atmosphere, the sky and to outer space.
Space is nothing, the CME flare will just pass thru it. When it approaches earth, the ejected mass will force our atmosphere apart, as Isaiah 34:4 and Rev 6:14a tell us.
This may be the main means of death on the side facing the sun at that time. Asphyxiation.

2 Peter 3:3-10 fits my beliefs quite well. The scoffers are those who reject another event similar to what happened in Noah's time.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,291
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,162.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No.
The Amill belief not only belittles Revelation 20, the six mentions of the 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus,

Tell me, how many hills is God the king of? What percent? There's well over a million MOUNTAINS on earth - how many hills? Now while you consider that - what are some common Jewish number symbols? Let's see... according to the hermeneutical historical cultural experts:-

7 = perfection, the fullness of time, God's control over history. Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns = perfect knowledge and perfect power.

3.5 means a limited time or short period. These bad things will break out now and then but in God's mercy he limits the time in which this judgement is handed out. It's the difference between knowing there will be wars and rumours of wars, and having a full scale major powers war like WW2 drag on forever. In ratio (half of 7) and use in the text (short patches of calamity) - it is as symbolic as all the rest of the numbers. There's just nothing literal about it.

12 being the tribes of Israel, and 12 * 12 = 144 being the tribes multiplied by the Apostles multiplied by "a gazillion" (1000) - see below.

1000 being 'a very large number, a gazillion' - Psalm 50 - "for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." If the thousand here is literal, what about the other millions of hills on earth? Is God really only in charge of 0.001% off the hills?
1000 can be literal when it's counting something specific like the number of soldiers going into battle or treasure or something else specific - but is never like that with descriptions of God's view of time.

EG: 2 Peter 3 discusses how God can both see the whole gazillion years of history, or zoom in on one moment as if he had a gazillion years to study that moment. This is comforting because it means God can focus on my prayers like I'm the only person in the whole of creation that ever existed! In the context of the 2 Peter 3 passage it makes no sense to see this as sort of end-times mathematics equation to run to guess of the "Days of the Lord" given Peter plainly says it will be like a thief in the night. It will be unknowable!

6 being the number of man (the day we were created on, the days of the week we work.)



it rejects God's Plan of 7000 years for mankind.
Well, yeah, I reject that because it's not in scripture. But do try beating that drum!

I do that too. But Amils have another agenda for the end times; which is basically; there is no end times, Jesus Returns and that is that.
Now you're getting it!
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,767.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
imo, it is hard to say what the average Christian back in the days of John, when he was on the isle of Patmos, thought regarding what is in Revelation 6-19.

Going by what information they had, they knew that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies, and the Jews lead away captives into the nations until the time of the gentiles ended, and they would return to Jerusalem and Israel - when the events of Revelation 6-19 would take place.

The question they must have had, but with no way to predict it, was how long would they be in the nations?

If they thought maybe ten years or so, then they would be looking for the events of Revelation 6-19 to happen in their day.

As it turned out - 2000 years went by.
_________________________________________

In that 2000 years, a major crisis peaked in Christianity - resulting in the Reformation.

During the time of the reformation, and the persecution by papal management to hold control over everyone, the rationale of the reformers was that they were living in the time of Revelation 6-19.

The problem though for them was so many of the prophecies associated with Jesus's return involved Israel. So their solution was that the church was the Israel of God. And Christians spiritual Jews.

Which that thinking permeates much of Christianity to this very day.
__________________________________________________

Fast forward to 1948. Israel a nation again, and the Jews back in the land. Replacement theology proven wrong. But not admitting error, is one of the traits common among many people.

In 1967, the Jews regain possession of Jerusalem. At that point surely, the reformers eschatology would be rejected by most Christians. But no that is not the case.

In the past 50 years, Bible commentators on the futurist side began pushing things like the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is a peace treaty. It is an error, but it has been repeated so much, it is ingrained into many futurists' minds, that it is taken as gospel. Same goes for the term "the tribulation" to mean the 7 year 70th week. Resulting in the misnomers of Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Post-trib. Which what those really mean below the surface are Pre-70th week, Mid-70th week, Post-70th week.

Today, 2021, we have plenty of 20-20 hindsight to not hold on to errors of thinking of the past. Convincing people though of those errors - that is a different matter.

Time to once again expose the fallacies of your "Jews" and "Israel".

By what characteristic(s) do you claim that God recognizes them?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. ?
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,674
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,157.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Time to once again expose the fallacies of your "Jews" and "Israel".
But people like Douggg and all the 'rapture to heaven' believers, MUST have the Jews on earth getting tribulated, while they sit in heaven.
Its about the most extreme fairy tale imaginable.
Now you're getting it!
What I get, is how even faithful Christians can be confused and be deceived about what the end times will bring.
Just as Jesus said could happen: Matthew 24:4
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,674
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,157.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Ha ha ha - oh wow - eschatology - the forum that just keeps on giving
I was referring to the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
Not to the forthcoming Judgment and destruction to come when the Lord sends His fiery wrath.
Which will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Luke 21:34-35
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,291
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,162.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I was referring to the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
Not to the forthcoming Judgment and destruction to come when the Lord sends His fiery wrath.
Which will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Luke 21:34-35
Meh - unless you're working underground!
Sorry but that verse is about the Return - and it is Judgement Day - and it's totally inescapable as the hypothetical question shows. The reason the book doesn't end there is it is not a timeline, but a waltz.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No.
The Amill belief not only belittles Revelation 20,
Amil does not belittle Revelation 20 at all. Stop your nonsense.

the six mentions of the 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus,
How does Amil belittle that? It's not as if we deny the reign of Christ. We just understand it differently than you.

it rejects God's Plan of 7000 years for mankind.
Where does scripture teach that God has a 7000 year plan for mankind?

I do that too. But Amils have another agenda for the end times; which is basically; there is no end times, Jesus Returns and that is that.
That's not true. Satan's little season is a major thing and has to occur first. I personally associate that with the time of the falling away and unrestrained wickedness that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Peter 3:3-10 fits my beliefs quite well. The scoffers are those who reject another event similar to what happened in Noah's time.
How many unbelievers survived the event in Noah's time? None, right? How many unbelievers do you think will survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:3-12?
 
Upvote 0

anna ~ grace

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,071
11,925
✟108,146.93
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Many futurists who see Revelation as a timetable for the last generation insist they read it 'literally'. They don't! In their rush to make the book all about them and their generation and their theories about Russia or the Middle East or whatever, they miss the clearest parts of Revelation which actually *are* quite literal. The introduction, the very instruction manual for the book! In Revelation Chapter 1, we'll see 4 key things that mean it was primarily John preparing his generation for serious persecution from the Romans. 4 things!

1. SOON: Revelation 1 shows us that this book was written by John to his generation with a *generic* message about suffering that would break out under Rome but would teach all future generations about obedience to Christ in such terrible situations.
Literally, all these things would “…SOON take place." (Rev 1:1)
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is NEAR." (Rev 1:3)

2. OBEY
Note that John wanted his generation to *obey* the message (take it to heart). How do you obey a message all about people 2000 years in the future, and not even about you? You can’t. But John expected *his* generation to *obey* this message, and stay faithful with patient endurance in these times of suffering.

3. *TRIBULATION* started THEN! John shared in it! Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB) The tribulation had *already* started, 2000 years ago as the Romans started persecuting the church. Think of the questions early Jewish Christians had at the time. Was the Messiah still going to save Israel from her enemies and kick out the Romans? What was the point of belonging to this 'new Israel', the church, if it didn't guarantee any national or personal security? How were Christians to understand the eventual fall of the temple in AD70? Why was God letting his forgiven people suffer so much? John answers these questions. Revelation is a sermon about suffering, written in rich biblical images. It's like a Marvel Superhero comic with colourful villains we boo and hiss, and a wonderful hero that will most certainly win victory for all. It was written *to* them and specifically *about* them and their suffering. But just as we can read Paul's letters to Ephesus and Corinth and Rome and learn what it means to serve God, we can read this letter to the church suffering Roman persecution and learn.
By teaching John's generation how to suffer under Rome, it also reminds us that our kingdom is eternal, not temporal, spiritual, not political, sometimes poor in this world, but rich in the next. If we listen, and learn the lesson they learned 2000 years ago. If we listen to John we'll be reminded where the *true* temple now is, where true security exists, and how our true home is being prepared. It’s about God calls us to be faithful even when this world asks us to trust in governments and worldly philosophies and riches.

4. IT ENDS IN THE GOSPEL HOPE: It starts with the gospel in chapter 1:2 "who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's not a timetable of the future, it's about the gospel! John says so right here. Sure it ends with 3 graphic descriptions of the return of the Lord (from different camera angles, so to speak). But just because Revelation reminds John's generation of the Lord's eventual return in victory and judgement, it does *not* mean the entire book is a timetable of that return. It's an encouragement to John's generation then, not a timetable for us now. If it were about *us* (and every generation thinks they're pretty special!), then the book has been irrelevant and useless to the church for 2000 years. It would almost be like John saying to his suffering generation, "You think the Romans are bad, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" It just doesn't make any sense. John said the persecution was starting soon, he already shared in it, and he wanted *them* to *obey* his message. All his instructions in Chapter 1 are impossible if the whole book is about 2000 years later! Instead, we should read it the way the Reformers read it, as Amillennials. We learn from Revelation about suffering today as we think about Christians in North Korea or various Muslim nations. Christians suffering persecution receive this book with great thanksgiving and are encouraged by it, when they understand what it is *really* saying.
For more on this Amillennial perspective, please buy "Apocalypse Now and then" by Dr Paul Barnett. He's a Sydney Anglican Bishop that also taught ancient history for many years in a local university. It's gold! I encourage you to buy a copy on kindle. :)
That actually makes a lot of sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eclipsenow
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,674
2,491
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,157.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Where does scripture teach that God has a 7000 year plan for mankind?
The time periods as given in the Bible and the fact of there having been exactly 2000 years Adam to Abraham, then another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus and now 1991 years since Jesus.
How many unbelievers survived the event in Noah's time? None, right? How many unbelievers do you think will survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:3-12?
There will be no ungodly people to go with Jesus into the Millennium.
They will all be made His footstool.
Only near the end, will Satan be released and will again deceive some people. They will be destroyed by fire from God.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,602
2,107
Texas
✟196,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I personally associate that with the time of the falling away and unrestrained wickedness that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2.


I'm not going to lie, I can definitely see the logic in that. What I don't see the logic in is how this can be involving the beast with a deadly wound that is healed , when Revelation 20:4 is already involving that beast, and that these things were already true before satan's little season begins----and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

It is not during satan's little season that those in verse 4 encounter the beast with a deadly wound that is healed, it is before the time of his little season. Which means that the beast with a deadly wound that is healed, obviously has to ascend out of the pit first before any of those saints recorded in verse 4 can have an encounter with it. You obviously think otherwise for some reason, regardless that what you are concluding, it is contradicting what Revelation 20:4 is telling us about this beast, that it has to ascend out of the pit before one can have an encounter with it.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The time periods as given in the Bible and the fact of there having been exactly 2000 years Adam to Abraham, then another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus and now 1991 years since Jesus.
This is all you have to back up your 7000 year plan theory? I don't find this to be very convincing at all.

There will be no ungodly people to go with Jesus into the Millennium.
They will all be made His footstool.
So, you're saying that no ungodly people will survive the return of Christ, right? I agree. But, you believe mortal believers will "go with Jesus into the Millennium. That can't happen, though. Paul said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50). But, you have flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God which contradicts what Paul taught.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eclipsenow
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not going to lie, I can definitely see the logic in that. What I don't see the logic in is how this can be involving the beast with a deadly wound that is healed , when Revelation 20:4 is already involving that beast, and that these things were already true before satan's little season begins----and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

It is not during satan's little season that those in verse 4 encounter the beast with a deadly wound that is healed, it is before the time of his little season. Which means that the beast with a deadly wound that is healed, obviously has to ascend out of the pit first before any of those saints recorded in verse 4 can have an encounter with it. You obviously think otherwise for some reason, regardless that what you are concluding, it is contradicting what Revelation 20:4 is telling us about this beast, that it has to ascend out of the pit before one can have an encounter with it.
We have talked about this before more than once, but you're acting like we never have. Do you ever remember anything we talk about? What motivation do I have to tell you yet again how I understand these things when it appears that you'll just forget what I say, anyway?

So, instead of trying to again give you a detailed explanation of my understanding of this as I've done before, I'll just say that it's clear to me that if the beast is in the pit then the dragon, Satan, must be in the pit as well because the two go hand in hand and work together, as Revelation 13:1-4 clearly shows. And I know you agree with me that the beast was already in the pit when John wrote the book, as Revelation 17:8 indicates.

What doesn't make sense to me is why you can't recognize that the beast being in the pit implies that the dragon, Satan, is in the pit as well. It should be clear that Satan uses the beast to do his bidding, based on what it says in Revelation 13, yet you seem to think that Satan can do his thing at full strength even with the beast being in the pit. If that was the case then why would Satan ever need the beast to come out of the pit to do his dirty work, so to speak?
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,291
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,162.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The time periods as given in the Bible and the fact of there having been exactly 2000 years Adam to Abraham, then another 2000 years Abraham to Jesus and now 1991 years since Jesus.
Except 'son of' can mean descendant of, and there are different genealogies.

There will be no ungodly people to go with Jesus into the Millennium.
They will all be made His footstool. Only near the end, will Satan be released and will again deceive some people. They will be destroyed by fire from God.
If people can be deceived from Christ's 'millennium' reign, can they also be deceived in the New Heavens and New Earth? Just think about what you are suggesting...
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,767.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Fast forward to 1948. Israel a nation again, and the Jews back in the land.

Time to once again expose the fallacies of your "Jews" and "Israel".

By what characteristic(s) do you claim that God recognizes them?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. ?

Is the question unanswerable?
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,291
1,735
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,162.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Is the question unanswerable?
(Sorry - I misunderstood who was contributing) He's the one asserting an unanswerable data point is the focus of God's word on eschatological matters - so he'd better have an answer! :doh::doh::doh:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,776
3,419
Non-dispensationalist
✟359,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Is the question unanswerable?
By being of blood descent, through the mother, of the Jews who were lead captive into the nations, to begin the time of the gentiles.
 
Upvote 0