James and the Gospel

michael21

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In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, so it can't be the power of sin.
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What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Romans7:7-13

Is thou shalt not covet part of the law of God?
The law is holy, righteous and good, that does not stop the law being the power of sin
 
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michael21

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In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! There are many others verses that say similar things, so it is not righteousness of obeying the law that was what condemned man, but rather it is disobedience to the law that does that. Christ expressed his righteousness through walking in obedience to the law, so that is also the way for us to express the righteousness of Christ through faith.



In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because the pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as though righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what we are submitting to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord, so nothing in the either the surrounding or the broader context has anything to do with Jesus being the end point of the law, but just the opposite.



Changing the medium upon which God's law is written does not change the content of what it instructs to do. While there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are Christ because of the cross (Romans 8:1), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so being in Christ does not remove our obligation to obey God's law, but just the opposite.



The law can't be ended for a purpose that it never had. Righteousness is a character trait of God that is straightforwardly expressed by doing what is righteous and God's law is His instructions for how to express that character trait, not for how to earn it. For example, the law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to earn their rightness because it can't be earned as a wage (Romans 4:4-5). When God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law, so the same faith by which we are declared righteous is also expressed through our obedience to God's law, but we do not earn our righteousness by our obedience to it.



In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which he served with his flesh. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion of us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Likewise, it is not the Law of God that is the power of sin, but rather it is the law of sin that is the power of sin. In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, so it can't be the power of sin.
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With respect, I do not believe you understand Paul's writings, my previous post to you should explain why I come to that conclusion
 
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Soyeong

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For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast
Eph2:8&9
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Romans1:21&22
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” Rom1:17

In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new creations in Christ in order to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation by doing good works in obedience to God's law, our doing them is nevertheless still an integral part of our salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false way far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by race through faith, which the Law and the Prophets have always testified about. Every example listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone from the OT who was saved by grace through faith. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal2:16&17
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith. Gal3:10&11
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Gal5:6

We do not earn our justification by obeying God's law, so it is that much more true that we do not earn it by obeying man-made works of the law. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are the law of works, while he said in verse 31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is the law of faith. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was contrasting works of the law, which are not of faith with the Book of the Law, which is of faith, and they were coming under a curse for relying on works of the law because they weren't relying on the Book of the Law. Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike the Mosaic Law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to rely on the Mosaic Law is to rely on the Lawgiver, while to deny that it is of faith rather than works of the law is to deny the faithfulness of the Lawgiver.

For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. Romans 4:14&15

We do not earn our inheritance of the promise by our obedience to God's law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to obey it for the purposes for which it was given. The law brings wrath for disobedience, not obedience.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
James2:10
Why are you under a curse if you rely on obeying the law?(Gal3:10&11) Because you have to do everything written in the law(everything)
Why does law bring wrath? Because you have to perfectly obey it to be justified under it.
James agrees break one law you are guilty of breaking them all.

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them form trying to keep the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of keeping the law more constantly. The fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience to the law and even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their justification because it can't be earned as a wage (Romans 4:4-5), so that was never the goal for why we should obey the law.

Romans2:13 applies to those who live under the law(verse12) if you live under the law you are obviously justified by obeying it, believers do not live under the law

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say that only doers of the law will be justified while also denying in Romans 4:4-5 that our justification can be earned as a wage. In Romans 2:12, those who sin without the law will also perish without the law, so that is not a preferable alternative to being judged by the law. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so it is contradictory for someone to think that they aren't under God's law while also thinking that they need to be saved from living in transgression of it. Believers are not permitted to sin (Romans 6:15), so believers are under God's law.
 
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michael21

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In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new creations in Christ in order to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation by doing good works in obedience to God's law, our doing them is nevertheless still an integral part of our salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false way far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by race through faith, which the Law and the Prophets have always testified about. Every example listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone from the OT who was saved by grace through faith. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.



We do not earn our justification by obeying God's law, so it is that much more true that we do not earn it by obeying man-made works of the law. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are the law of works, while he said in verse 31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is the law of faith. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was contrasting works of the law, which are not of faith with the Book of the Law, which is of faith, and they were coming under a curse for relying on works of the law because they weren't relying on the Book of the Law. Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike the Mosaic Law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to rely on the Mosaic Law is to rely on the Lawgiver, while to deny that it is of faith rather than works of the law is to deny the faithfulness of the Lawgiver.



We do not earn our inheritance of the promise by our obedience to God's law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to obey it for the purposes for which it was given. The law brings wrath for disobedience, not obedience.



In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them form trying to keep the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of keeping the law more constantly. The fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience to the law and even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their justification because it can't be earned as a wage (Romans 4:4-5), so that was never the goal for why we should obey the law.



In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say that only doers of the law will be justified while also denying in Romans 4:4-5 that our justification can be earned as a wage. In Romans 2:12, those who sin without the law will also perish without the law, so that is not a preferable alternative to being judged by the law. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so it is contradictory for someone to think that they aren't under God's law while also thinking that they need to be saved from living in transgression of it. Believers are not permitted to sin (Romans 6:15), so believers are under God's law.
And all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous Romans2:12&13
Do christians live under the law?
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Romans6:14
 
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Soyeong

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Would you tell a young teenager who had just reached puberty if they dwelt on any impure thought they are breaking the ten commandments, and being justified before God hinged on obeying them?
Concerning Romans2:13. Please read the preceeding verse and couple the two together. To believe Paul preached righteousness/justification of obeying the law is not to be taken seriously. How many verses would you like me to quote of his directly contradicting that?

There can be reasons for obeying God's law other than trying to earn our justification, especially because God's law was never given as a means of doing that, so verses that speak against earning our justification by our obedience do it should not be mistaken as speaking against our justification requiring our obedience to it for some other reason, such as faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say both that only doers of the law will be justified and use Abraham's example to show that our justification is not earned as a wage. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage. In James 2:21-23, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but he was not justified by his works insofar as they were earning a wage.

So, yes, I would tell a teenager that thinking about a woman with lust in our hearts is breaking both the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and against coveting in our hearts and that the same faith by which we are justified is expressed through obeying the Ten Commandments as well as God's other commandments. I agree that in Romans 2:13 that Paul was not speaking about earning our justification as wage and that there are many verses that speak against earning our justification, though it is nevertheless still true that he was saying that only doers of the law will be justified.

And all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous Romans2:12&13
Do christians live under the law?

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Romans6:14

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Romans7:7-13

Is thou shalt not covet part of the law of God?
The law is holy, righteous and good, that does not stop the law being the power of sin

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was speaking about us not being under. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. If Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, so if 7:5-6 were speaking about the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. So throughout Romans 7:7-13, Paul is also going back and forth speaking about the Law of God and the law of sin. In verse 8, it is the law of sin sizing the opportunity through the Law of God to produce all kinds of covetousness, so it is apart from the law sin that sin lies dead, which again means that it is the law of sin that is the power of sin in 1 Corinthians 15:56. In Romans 7:12-13, the Law of God is holy, righteous, and good, but it was not what was good that brought death to him, but rather it was the law of sin that was working death in him. So yes, the law against coveting is part of the Law of God, but it is the law of sin that is the power of sin, not the law of God, and a law that is holy, righteous, and good can't be the power of sin because sin is the opposite of what is holy, righteous, and good.

In regard to Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is the law of sin that Paul described as sin having dominion over us to cause us not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that we want to do. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under the Law of God. Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the law of God and against sin. For example, in Romans 6:19-22, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being under God's law is part of the gift of God.

In Matthew 19:17, Christ said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again, that is part of the gift of God. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is the gift of God. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so again God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do that is part of the content of His gift of salvation.
 
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michael21

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There can be reasons for obeying God's law other than trying to earn our justification, especially because God's law was never given as a means of doing that, so verses that speak against earning our justification by our obedience do it should not be mistaken as speaking against our justification requiring our obedience to it for some other reason, such as faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say both that only doers of the law will be justified and use Abraham's example to show that our justification is not earned as a wage. While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage. In James 2:21-23, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but he was not justified by his works insofar as they were earning a wage.

So, yes, I would tell a teenager that thinking about a woman with lust in our hears is breaking both the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and against coveting in our hearts and that the same faith by which we are justified is expressed through obeying the Ten Commandments as well as God's other commandments. I agree that in Romans 2:13 that Paul was not speaking about earning our justification as wage and that there are many verses that speak against earning our justification, though it is nevertheless still true that he was saying that only doers of the law will be justified.





Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was speaking about us not being under. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. If Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, so if 7:5-6 were speaking about the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. So throughout Romans 7:7-13, Paul is also going back and forth speaking about the Law of God and the law of sin. In verse 8, it is the law of sin sizing the opportunity through the Law of God to produce all kinds of covetousness, so it is apart from the law sin that sin lies dead, which again means that it is the law of sin that is the power of sin in 1 Corinthians 15:56. In Romans 7:12-13, the Law of God is holy, righteous, and good, but it was not what was good that brought death to him, but rather it was the law of sin that was working death in him. So yes, the law against coveting is part of the Law of God, but it is the law of sin that is the power of sin, not the law of God, and a law that is holy, righteous, and good can't be the power of sin because sin is the opposite of what is holy, righteous, and good.

In regard to Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is the law of sin that Paul described as sin having dominion over us to cause us not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that we want to do. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under the Law of God. Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the law of God and against sin. For example, in Romans 6:19-22, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being under God's law is part of the gift of God.

In Matthew 19:17, Christ said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again, that is part of the gift of God. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is the gift of God. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so again God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do that is part of the content of His gift of salvation.
Please see post 102 and what it is responding to. I am afraid you do not understand Paul's message. I can assure you, that if you told a young teenager dwelling on any impure thought was breaking the commandments that were needed to be obeyed to be righteous/justified before God it would have a negative effect on them. I see little point in discussing Paul with you until you may come to a better understanding of his message
 
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HIM

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I have already given you another verse of Pauls in which he states ''leading to holiness''
Hebrews not another verse in another letter Hebrews. Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. WE are sanctified through the Body of Christ once and for all. THAT IS WHAT THE VERSE SAYS, Not a process a done deal. Sanctification is the process to which we are enabled to become Holy, perfected. The cup has to be empty before it is filled. You don't put new wine in an old vessel lest it bursts.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.
 
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michael21

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Hebrews not another verse in another letter Hebrews. Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. WE are sanctified through the Body of Christ once and for all. THAT IS WHAT THE VERSE SAYS, Not a process a done deal. Sanctification is the process to which we are enabled to become Holy, perfected. The cup has to be empty before it is filled. You don't put new wine in an old vessel lest it bursts.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.
You may keep deflecting if you wish. In my view it simply shows your inability to defend your beliefs according to scripture placed before you
 
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Soyeong

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Please see post 102 and what it is responding to. I am afraid you do not understand Paul's message. I can assure you, that if you told a young teenager dwelling on any impure thought was breaking the commandments that were needed to be obeyed to be righteous/justified before God it would have a negative effect on them. I see little point in discussing Paul with you until you may come to a better understanding of his message

Post #102 was responding to what I said about Romans 7:7, so I wrote this paragraph discussing how to interpret the verses that you quoted:

"Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was speaking about us not being under. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. If Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, so if 7:5-6 were speaking about the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. So throughout Romans 7:7-13, Paul is also going back and forth speaking about the Law of God and the law of sin. In verse 8, it is the law of sin sizing the opportunity through the Law of God to produce all kinds of covetousness, so it is apart from the law sin that sin lies dead, which again means that it is the law of sin that is the power of sin in 1 Corinthians 15:56. In Romans 7:12-13, the Law of God is holy, righteous, and good, but it was not what was good that brought death to him, but rather it was the law of sin that was working death in him. So yes, the law against coveting is part of the Law of God, but it is the law of sin that is the power of sin, not the law of God, and a law that is holy, righteous, and good can't be the power of sin because sin is the opposite of what is holy, righteous, and good."

I can assure you that telling a teenager that they are free to unrepentantly sin without it affecting their justification, then that would have a far more negative effect on them.

I think that you need to have a better understanding of Paul, so the point of a discussing forum like this is to discuss how to correctly understand him.
 
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michael21

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Post #102 was responding to what I said about Romans 7:7, so I wrote this paragraph discussing how to interpret the verses that you quoted:

"Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was speaking about us not being under. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. If Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, so if 7:5-6 were speaking about the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive. So throughout Romans 7:7-13, Paul is also going back and forth speaking about the Law of God and the law of sin. In verse 8, it is the law of sin sizing the opportunity through the Law of God to produce all kinds of covetousness, so it is apart from the law sin that sin lies dead, which again means that it is the law of sin that is the power of sin in 1 Corinthians 15:56. In Romans 7:12-13, the Law of God is holy, righteous, and good, but it was not what was good that brought death to him, but rather it was the law of sin that was working death in him. So yes, the law against coveting is part of the Law of God, but it is the law of sin that is the power of sin, not the law of God, and a law that is holy, righteous, and good can't be the power of sin because sin is the opposite of what is holy, righteous, and good."

I can assure you that telling a teenager that they are free to unrepentantly sin without it affecting their justification, then that would have a far more negative effect on them.

I think that you need to have a better understanding of Paul, so the point of a discussing forum like this is to discuss how to correctly understand him.
Unfortunatley, on websites such as these people never can admit to error, even when it is laid before them according to the bible. Through Pauls knowledge of the commandment Thou shalt not covet, sin took occasion of it to arouse all manner of concupiscence in him. I assume you know what concupiscence means. It is very plainly stated
In verse 13 Paul states that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful, it all relates to thou shalt not covet, he hasn't changed to any other topic. Thou shalt not covet is part of the law of God. You are free to ignore what is written plainly if you wish, but I see no point in continuing a discussion with you if you refuse to accept the plain writing of Paul. You may not understand it, but you should not close your mind to it, but seek to understand
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
And your comment about telling a teenager they are free to unrepentantly sin is not to understand the new covenant at its core
 
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michael21

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Some may wonder why I am so against preaching a righteousness/justification of law. It is because what happened to Saul the Pharisee happens even today among many who go to church. They believe, as Saul did, due to what they hear preached, they are in effect living under righteousness of obeying the law. And many of them wil not preach law while shrugging off their shortcomings concerning it. The results for them have in many cases been devestating. However, i imagine that is not so important to people who simply want to debate theology

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
 
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Soyeong

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Unfortunatley, on websites such as these people never can admit to error, even when it is laid before them according to the bible. Through Pauls knowledge of the commandment Thou shalt not covet, sin took occasion of it to arouse all manner of concupiscence in him. I assume you know what concupiscence means. It is very plainly stated
In verse 13 Paul states that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful, it all relates to thou shalt not covet, he hasn't changed to any other topic. Thou shalt not covet is part of the law of God. You are free to ignore what is written plainly if you wish, but I see no point in continuing a discussion with you if you refuse to accept the plain writing of Paul. You may not understand it, but you should not close your mind to it, but seek to understand
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

I've been in error a number of things and have no problem admitting that I am in error when that is the case, but I first need to be shown that I am in error. I have not ignored anything that Paul has said or refused to accept the plain meaning of his words, but rather I have spoken in regard to how we should understand his words, so if you disagree, then please discuss why.

I agree that thou shalt not covet is part of the Law of God. However, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it was not what was good that brought death to him, yet that is precisely what you are trying to use his words to blame. Rather, it was the law of sin taking the occasion of the Law of God that aroused all manner of concupiscence in him. Again, in verse 13, Paul was speaking about the law of sin producing death in him through what is good, so the law of sin is acting on the Law of God and it is the law of sin that brought death to him, not the Law of God.

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, so it should at least be worth considering which category of law he was referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:56. I can cite verse where there is a law that Paul said our faith upholds and that he delighted in obeying, while other verses where there is a law that he spoke against, which can't all be referring to the same law, so if you assume that he was always speaking about the Law of God, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him.

And your comment about telling a teenager they are free to sin is not to understand the new covenant at its core

Either unrepentant sin affects our justification or it does not. I took the position that unrepentantly committing sin does affect our justification and that we should inform teenagers of this, while if that does not affect our justification, then we are free to sin all we want, though I would agree that saying it does not affect our justification and that we are free to sin is not in accordance with the New Covenant, which is which is why I took that first position.
 
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michael21

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. However, Paul said that the law of God is good and that it was not what was good that brought death to him, yet that is precisely what you are trying to use his words to blame. .[/QUOTE]
Please do not bear false witness against me. The law of God is Holy, righteous and good. I made very clear it was sin that used what was holy righteous and good(it took occasion of it) to bring condemnation to Saul the Pharisee. Sin took occasion of the commandment thou shalt not covet to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul and made him exceeding sinful through the commandment.
 
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HIM

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You may keep deflecting if you wish. In my view it simply shows your inability to defend your beliefs according to scripture placed before you
We, you and I know better.
Take care.
 
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Soyeong

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. However, Paul said that the law of God is good and that it was not what was good that brought death to him, yet that is precisely what you are trying to use his words to blame. .
Please do not bear false witness against me. The law of God is Holy, righteous and good. I made very clear it was sin that used what was holy righteous and good(it took occasion of it) to bring condemnation to Saul the Pharisee. Sin took occasion of the commandment thou shalt not covet to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Saul and made him exceeding sinful through the commandment.

I apologize if I have misunderstood your position. The law of sin acting upon the Law of God to bring death to Paul has been the position that I have arguing in favor of. So then you agree that in these verses it is the law of sin that is the power of sin, not the Law of God? If the Law of God were the power of sin, then it would be the Law of God that is responsible for arousing all kinds of concupiscence and for bringing death to us.

The law of sin is not so much a list of rules as it is a principle or an evil inclination. In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then it leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease. However, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bring fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that is hinders us from living for God are referring to the law of sin rather than to the law of God, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.
 
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michael21

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I apologize if I have misunderstood your position. The law of sin acting upon the Law of God to bring death to Paul has been the position that I have arguing in favor of. So then you agree that in these verses it is the law of sin that is the power of sin, not the Law of God? If the Law of God were the power of sin, then it would be the Law of God that is responsible for arousing all kinds of concupiscence and for bringing death to us.

The law of sin is not so much a list of rules as it is a principle or an evil inclination. In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then it leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease. However, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bring fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that is hinders us from living for God are referring to the law of sin rather than to the law of God, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.
Sin used the commandment thou shalt not covet to bring condemnation to Saul and made him exceeding sinfull through it. Thou shalt not covet is one of the ten commandments
Thank you for the apology
 
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michael21

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The power of sin to be precise is righteousness of obeying the law. Remove righteousness from the equation and the power of sin has been taken away:

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom 6:14

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith/righteousness of faith in Christ not obeying the law? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Rom3:31
That's Paul's core message. But the rational mind of man cannot accept it. That is why the Holy Spirit was sent, to lead us into spiritual truth(or one reason)
 
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Soyeong

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Sin used the commandment thou shalt not covet to bring condemnation to Saul and made him exceeding sinfull through it. Thou shalt not covet is one of the ten commandments
Thank you for the apology

I agree sin used the commandment, so the problem is with the law of sin, not the Law of God. It's kind of like how a person who uses a gun to commit murder is responsible for bringing death, not the gun.

In Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in the Law of God, so Paul should not be interpreted as speaking against a law that he delighted in obeying. If 1 Corinthians 15:56 were referring to the Law of God rather than the law of sin, then that Paul would mean that Paul delighted in the power of sin, so do you think he did that?
 
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I agree sin used the commandment, so the problem is with the law of sin, not the Law of God. It's kind of like how a person who uses a gun to commit murder is responsible for bringing death, not the gun.

In Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in the Law of God, so do you think that Paul delighted, so Paul should not be interpreted as speaking against a law that he delighted in obeying. If 1 Corinthians 15:56 were referring to the Law of God rather than the law of sin, then that Paul would mean that Paul delighted in the power of sin, so do you think he did that?
If we remove righteousness of obeying the law we are simply left with what is Holy, Just and good. The power of sin has then been removed Rom 6:14&Rom3:31
 
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