James and the Gospel

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Rom2:12&13
Don't take the context away from what is written. If you are under the law you will obviously be declared righteous by obeying the law!
As I could immediatley give you 20 verses of Paul that state the believer has no righteousness of obeying the law, it is interesting you try to make one verse contradict the 20.
Your quote from Rom ch1 does not concern those born again.
Let me repost:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith Gal3:10&11
You rely on the works of the law don't you? For to you, you will be jiudged acording to your obedience to them.
or if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath Romans 4:4&15
How are you getting on obeying the ten commandments? Remember, break one you break them all
Do you even try and obey each and every command of Christ in the Gospels?

I have found with those who preach law it is just words that have no relevance to their own lives, they always fail the tests they set others. Which is what the Pharisees of Jesus day did of course
Beware of the yeast of the pharisees and saduccees which is hypocrisy Luke12:1
I won't put smiley faces up, take my advice, it shows little maturity

When one disagrees with a post they address the post within the passages given. As was said you are all over the place. Address the post within the passages given. Prove the post wrong with in the Scripture given and we will recant.

misput · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit 1Cor2:12&13
We could say, those who allow themselves to be lied of the rational mind will not understand what those say who allow themselves to follow after the Holy Spirit
God bless

Very true but God is not done with us yet :amen:

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

misput said:
Sorry, but you are not understanding.

Context says different. Prove the post wrong within the passages given and we will recant.

The Engrafted Word which is the Law of Liberty. Which includes The Royal law (love thy neighbor) and the ten commandments, the whole Law, in which we will be judged by.

James explicitly states what laws are in those whom hear God. Follow along please

Let us not be tempted, drawn away by our own Lust, bringing forth sin unto death. For every good gift and perfect gift cometh down from the Father of lights, us. We are Begotten by the word of truth, receive with meekness the engrafted word, the PERFECT gift.

Being Begotten of the word Be doers of the engrafted word not hearers only deceiving ourselves. For we are Begotten so don't forget who we are when Looking into a mirror at the perfect law of Liberty, Who we now are through the engrafted word and continue therein when we goeth our way.

Be a doer of the work and we will be blessed in the deeds. Being Begotten with the engrafted Word, The Royal Law, the Whole Law, the Law of Liberty in which we will be judged.

If we become transgressors by breaking the ten commandments, the whole law, the royal law and we will be Judged by the Law of Liberty, the engrafted Word which begots us as the first fruit. Then the engrafted word, the Law of Liberty is the royal Law, the ten commandments, the whole law in which we will be judged.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
When one disagrees with a post they address the post within the passages given. As was said you are all over the place. Address the post within the passages given. Prove the post wrong with in the Scripture given and we will recant.

I have addressed much of your posts. Why did you not address where I wrote from Paul that if you rely on the law you are under a curse?
Law brings wrath? Have you addressed these? No You are hardly in a position to complain to me are you?
Do you even try and obey each and every command of Christ in the Gospels? Why do you refuse to answer that question? Is it sin not to obey Christ's commands? If you want all of your points addressed try reciprocating. But write smaller posts, it is easier then to address all you write

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
Context says different. Prove the post wrong within the passages given and we will recant.

The Engrafted Word which is the Law of Liberty. Which includes The Royal law (love thy neighbor) and the ten commandments, the whole Law, in which we will be judged by.

You do know that when Paul relentlessly stated the believer was not under righteousness/justification of obeying the law it was because of the ten commandments don't you?
It is not a written law anymore for the believer, it is a law written in their mind and placed on their heart(2Cor3:3). It is part of who they are, it is in their dna so to speak. You do not have to tell any born again christian how they should live, that is already in their most inward parts

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
I have addressed much of your posts.

No.
We are done. Take care.

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
You are all over the place and we have not told any to do anything.

If the law is in the Heart and mind, His Word is in the heart and mouth How can we be separated from it unless we go against that which He has accomplished through His Spirit. It is not us but Christ. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Behold all things are new and of God and He has given us this ministry of reconciliation, the reformation.
Lo we come in the volume of the book that it is written of us, to do THY will oh God. HE has taken away the first and Established the second. By which we are Sanctified, set apart for Holy use once and for all. Perfecting forever also us whom are sanctified. This perfection the Holy Ghost has also witness for He has said, He will put His laws into our hearts and into our minds and our sins will no longer be brought to remembrance. Because we who have been purged shall have no more conscience of sin for our hearts and minds, Our inner man have been changed. The Way into the holiest of ALL now manifested through the veil that is to say His flesh. Let us draw near having our hearts, who we are sprinkled from that evil conscience, who we were outside of Christ. With Full assurance of the Faith that comes and is of the NEW Heart and mind. Not forsaking one another but Considering one another, and provoking one another in Love and in good works. FOR IF WE keep on SINNING WILLFULLY after we receive the knowledge of what is being shared here there remains no more sacrifice for sins but a fear looking forward to that fiery indignation which shall destroy the adversaries. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of God. But vengeance is His and He will recompense and Judge His people. But we must call into remembrance when we were once illuminated. Cast not away therefore your confidence, that which hath great recompence of reward.
For we have need of patience, cheerfully enduring, after we have done the will of God, we might receive the promise. Now the just shall live by faith, the new heart and mind: but if any man draw back, Be sinning willfully my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition, DESTRUCTION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we are sinning wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

No verse 14 starts with the word "for" which means what follows it is directly connected. It gives the why and or How Gentiles can be judged. God has placed His word, His laws in the heart. So we are without excuse. We know the will of God and will be judged accordingly on the day the God will judge the secrets of man.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

As a favour to you, lets concentrate on your hebrews quotes:
First of all, (Niv) VERSE 14 states that Christians have been made perfect forever even while they are being made holy. Do you believe that? You have to get the basics in place before you move beyond it! Verse12, one sacrifice for sins forever, meaning all a persons sins are covered from first to last of their christian journey. The law is in the believers heart and mind, meaning in their heart they want to obey it. Believers sins/transgressions of the law will then be remembered no more.
Now pause and think hard about that. Is that what you believe?
Verse 22 speaks of coming in full assurance and faith in what has been done for us and hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience through what Christ did for us. None of the above is anywhere near your belief of being judged according to the Ten Commandments. ''Their sins(which are lawless deeds) will be remembered no more
The opposite of what you state isn't it!
Verses 26-31
So, a person must know in their heart they have been forgiven all their past, present and future sins, for them there is no condemnation, they are righteous in God's sight by faith in His Son from first to last. How will a person who truly believes that react to such knowledge? In my experience, those who fully believe that grow in the faith remarkably, love shines from them, for they are not continually trying to be good enough for God. They show greater love and mercy to others than anyone I have ever met who preaches judgement of law. But what, if believing Jesus died for all your sins, [past, present and future resulted in a person treating that with contempt, what if they showed no gratefulness for it, and sought to disdain Christ's sacrifice for them, what then? They would pay the price3 greatly, not because they did not obey the law, but because of showing contempt for what Jesus did for them at Calvary. Verses 26-31 would apply to them. But in truth, I have ne ver personally found anyone who has done that, only people who sink to their knees in gratitude for what they understand Jesus did for them at Calvary, and it has brought in their life an ever increasing desire to follow after Christ, some may call it irresistable grace.
On the other hand, where those who stress justification of obeying the law are concerned, the more they stress that, the more love mercy and compassion becomes a casualty in their life

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
As a favour to you, lets concentrate on your hebrews quotes:
First of all, (Niv) VERSE 14 states that Christians have been made perfect forever even while they are being made holy. Do you believe that?

No because that is not what the text says. It is says we are in a present state of sanctification not that we are being sanctified. Do you think the NIV is a perfect translation? They errored here and we can show you but it would be a waste of time if you are not willing to learn due to a preconceived notion.

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
No because that is not what the text says. It is says we are in a present state of sanctification not that we are being sanctified. Do you think the NIV is a perfect translation? They errored here and we can show you but it would be a waste of time if you are not willing to learn due to a preconceived notion.

''For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.'' Seems fine to me, we are being made to live ever more holy lives in our walk, its a process. I admit I am not willing to learn to accept judgement of obeying the law. Its incorrect. However, I did spend time going through your hebrews quote. It's ok. I don't expect you to reciprocate and respond to Paul saying those who rely on the law are cursed, and that law brings wrath.

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
All christians go through sanctification, its a process..

Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

''For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.'

You don't think Christians are on a journey, called to live evermore holy lives? God accepts people when they are steeped in sin, it takes time to change them. You are being a wee bit immature here.

I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. Romans6:19

The points quite valid

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

michael21 said:
''For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.'

The points quite valid

The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.

Soyeong · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

What precisely do you think it is about obeying the Ten Commandments that kills? Do you think that God's goal in commanding them was to bring death and condemnation to His children? If so, do you think that God was misleading His children when commanded them and that God therefore can't be trusted to rightly lead His children?

I only have issues with people who state you must obey the law as an entitlement to enter heaven. If they added they often failed themselves to obey the law it would be somewhat different. It is phariseeical to demand of others what you do not demand of yourself. Jesus had issues with such people, he reserved his harshest words for the religious who did that

The Pharisees were meticulous in their obedience to the Mosaic Law, calling them hypocrites does not refer to them saying that we should obey the law while they were not keeping it, but rather the Greek word "hypokritḗs" is in regard acting where their obedience was for show for others to see. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that they were hypocrites and that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so Jesus was not opposing obedience to the law, but rather his purpose in criticizing them was to call them to repent and come to a fuller obedience to it in accordance with the weightier matters of the law. Jesus was sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than they were. In any case, there is range for someone to be a hypocrite because they that we should do something while not doing what they said we should do, however, that does not necessarily mean that they are wrong about what we should, just that they need to repent of their hypocrisy and start acting in accordance with their words.

In Romans 2:13, Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so choosing to do God's will in obedience to His law through faith is a requirement to enter.

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. Eph2:5

You understand the above? It takes time to change, you have to live an evermore holy life, it is not all instantaneous. Or do you believe in a couple of minutes after receiving salvation a believer goes from being dead in transgressions to living the most holy of lives?
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:17&18

You might not understand the galatians quote, but it is obvious from it Paul is speaking of something that takes time in a believers life. God accepts you as you are, and declares you righteous in his sight by faith in his son, but change then comes, it takes time, you are called to live an evermore holy life. If you wish to disagree with that I don't think it reflects well on you
Of course, you might well be trying to bog down the discussion to avoid explaining yourself concerning Paul stating all who rely on the law are under a curse and law brings wrath. Anyone who believes judgement is based on obeying the ten commandments/the law, is most certainly relying on the law

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. Eph2:5

You understand the above? It takes time to change, you have to live an evermore holy life, it is not all instantaneous. Or do you believe in a couple of minutes after receiving salvation a believer goes from being dead in transgressions to living the most holy of lives?
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:17&18

You might not understand the galatians quote, but it is obvious from it Paul is speaking of something that takes time in a believers life. God accepts you as you are, and declares you righteous in his sight by faith in his son, but change then comes, it takes time, you are called to live an evermore holy life. If you wish to disagree with that I don't think it reflects well on you
Of course, you might well be trying to bog down the discussion to avoid explaining yourself concerning Paul stating all who rely on the law are under a curse and law brings wrath. Anyone who believes judgement is based on obeying the ten commandments/the law, is most certainly relying on the law

Hebrews friend. We are in Hebrews. Prove the post wrong within the passages given.
Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
Hebrews friend. We are in Hebrews. Prove the post wrong within the passages given.
Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.

I have already given you another verse of Pauls in which he states ''leading to holiness''

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The above simply confirms it. It seems to me you are trying to avoid answering difficult questions concerning scripture placed before you, I understand that. I will just quote them again, and I imagine you will keep ignoring them whilst accusing me of not responding to your scriptures
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith Gal3:10&11
For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath Rom4:14&15

I can only repeat, anyone who believes judgement is based on obeying the law, would have to rely and depend on the law, Paul explains the gravity of that

HIM · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
I have already given you another verse of Pauls in which he states ''leading to holiness''

Hebrews states what it says. Quoting another verse outside of Hebrews does not retract what Hebrews states plainly. You jump around to much.
Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

HIM said:
Hebrews states what it says. Quoting another verse outside of Hebrews does not retract what Hebrews states plainly. You jump around to much.
Hebrews says sanctified not a process a done deal. Please note that your NIV concurs accept in verse 14. This what they do in verse 14 does not fit with the rest of context of the letter pertaining to sanctification.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NIV 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The NIV is incorrect in their translation and they are ignoring what was previously stated in chapter 10 in verse 10. Where it is stated as in chapter 2 verse 11 that we are sanctified. You are ignoring the points being shown you.

Take care.

You have had the verse very adequatley explained to you with supporting verses of Paul's confirming the accuracy of it in regard to his teachings. I note that though you have accused me of ignoring what you write and not responding to it, it is clear it is you who is reluctant to address the scriptures placed before you. I on the other hand have spent much time addressing yours. So I will just keep inviting you to respond to the following. I f you refuse to, it is obvious why in my view:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith Gal3:10&11
For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath Rom4:14&15

I can only repeat, anyone who believes judgement is based on obeying the law, would have to rely and depend on the law, Paul explains the gravity of that

Soyeong · Aug 8, 2021

michael21 said:
Righteousness of obeying the law was what condemned man. And reading through this thread it seems you have tried to reinvent it. Believers will not be judged on obeying the ten commandments. Believers have but one righteousness, faith in Christ. They do not have a righteousness of obeying the law. If you tell people they will be judged according to obeying the ten commandments, in the real world people will still live under righteousness of obeying the law.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! There are many others verses that say similar things, so it is not righteousness of obeying the law that was what condemned man, but rather it is disobedience to the law that does that. Christ expressed his righteousness through walking in obedience to the law, so that is also the way for us to express the righteousness of Christ through faith.

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believet

Click to expand...

h Romans10:4
Honesty matters in Christianity. If you want to be honest admit you yourself cannot obey the letter of the ten commandments. People need honesty, not doctrine that the people making it cannot attain to.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because the pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as though righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what we are submitting to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord, so nothing in the either the surrounding or the broader context has anything to do with Jesus being the end point of the law, but just the opposite.

Here is the covenant the christian is under:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
Heb10:16&17
Yes, God wrote His law in our hearts and minds, meaning in our hearts we want to follow it. Because that is what we want, our sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. To say we will be judged by whether we obey the ten commandments is to negate the new covenant at its core. Jesus died to pay the penalty of your transgressions of the law/your sin. Don't ignore it!

Changing the medium upon which God's law is written does not change the content of what it instructs to do. While there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are Christ because of the cross (Romans 8:1), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so being in Christ does not remove our obligation to obey God's law, but just the opposite.

If righteousness of obeying the law has ended, how can a person be judged righteous to attain to Heaven based on whether they obeyed the ten commandments?

The law can't be ended for a purpose that it never had. Righteousness is a character trait of God that is straightforwardly expressed by doing what is righteous and God's law is His instructions for how to express that character trait, not for how to earn it. For example, the law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to earn their rightness because it can't be earned as a wage (Romans 4:4-5). When God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law, so the same faith by which we are declared righteous is also expressed through our obedience to God's law, but we do not earn our righteousness by our obedience to it.

Paul's main message is:
Die to a belief your sin can condemn you and sin shall not be your master
For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace Romans6:14

The message being preached here is nothing like that. It still amounts to 'obey the law or you will be judged by it'/Ten Commandments.
In my experience those who preach such law you will be judged by least follow the law they tell you must be obeyed. That has been my experience over decades.
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56. Therefore, leave a persons judgement based on whether they obeyed the ten commandments/righteousness of obeying the law and you leave the power of sin alive and well in their life

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which he served with his flesh. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion of us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Likewise, it is not the Law of God that is the power of sin, but rather it is the law of sin that is the power of sin. In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, so it can't be the power of sin.[/quote]

michael21 · Aug 8, 2021

Soyeong said:
What precisely do you think it is about obeying the Ten Commandments that kills? Do you think that God's goal in commanding them was to bring death and condemnation to His children? If so, do you think that God was misleading His children when commanded them and that God therefore can't be trusted to rightly lead His children?

The Pharisees were meticulous in their obedience to the Mosaic Law, calling them hypocrites does not refer to them saying that we should obey the law while they were not keeping it, but rather the Greek word "hypokritḗs" is in regard acting where their obedience was for show for others to see. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that they were hypocrites and that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so Jesus was not opposing obedience to the law, but rather his purpose in criticizing them was to call them to repent and come to a fuller obedience to it in accordance with the weightier matters of the law. Jesus was sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than they were. In any case, there is range for someone to be a hypocrite because they that we should do something while not doing what they said we should do, however, that does not necessarily mean that they are wrong about what we should, just that they need to repent of their hypocrisy and start acting in accordance with their words.

In Romans 2:13, Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so choosing to do God's will in obedience to His law through faith is a requirement to enter.

Would you tell a young teenager who had just reached puberty if they dwelt on any impure thought they are breaking the ten commandments, and being justified before God hinged on obeying them?
Concerning Romans2:13. Please read the preceeding verse and couple the two together. To believe Paul preached righteousness/justification of obeying the law is not to be taken seriously. How many verses would you like me to quote of his directly contradicting that?

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