The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

Douggg said:

keras, all of the end times events must be fulfilled before that generation passes away - not before they commence.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


So Jesus must return before that generation passes away. Using the base year of Israel a nation again and 80 years for a generation... 1948 + 80 = 2028. Jesus must return before then.

If we subtract 7 years to account for the 70th week... 2028 minus 7 = 2021. The confirming of the covenant for 7 years must be before the end of 2021.

No time for the CME and Christians to move into the land of Israel and create the nation of Beulah.

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Instead, let's just say 1967, the Jews back in control of Jerusalem, and is their capital again. Jerusalem as the fig tree. Same calculations.

1967 +80 = 2047. Jesus must return before then.

2047 minus 7 = 2040. The confirming of the covenant for 7 years must be before the end of 2040.

You had estimated that it would take 20 years to rebuild in the decimated middle east, the nation of Beulah. Which would mean that the CME must have already happened (2020). So the numbers don't work out for your scenario.

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Likewise, but no CME and Beulah nation scenario. Back in 2011, that was supposed to be the year for the confirming of the covenant, according to many prognosticators.... 1948+70 =2018 minus 7 = 2011. The confirming of the covenant for 7 years before 2011 ends. That did not work out either.

What possibilities remain are...

1967+70=2037 minus 7 = 2030 still possible and likely.

1967+80 = 2047 minus 7 = 2040 still possible, but less likely of the two remaining scenarios.

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Futurist timetable number 43,792, ready to disappoint, SIR!
Tell me Douggg - you don't happen to have a website outlining all this like other members here? What are your plans if your timetable doesn't work? Will you put up an apology and become Amil? Will you lose your faith?

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:10
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

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This starts in Revelation 12 - try this.

Bob_1000 said:

When Jesus cursed the fig tree he said "let no fruit grow on you from right now and forever more", which could only mean the fig tree was dead forever, never to come back to life again. Am I wrong on this?

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

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Different fig tree.

Timtofly said:

Different fig tree.

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You have a different timetable to offer? Keras is 1, Douggg is 2, are you offering timetable number 3?

eclipsenow said:

Futurist timetable number 43,792, ready to disappoint, SIR!
Tell me Douggg - you don't happen to have a website outlining all this like other members here? What are your plans if your timetable doesn't work? Will you put up an apology and become Amil? Will you lose your faith?

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I have the infallible end times timeline framework chart which I did not have until recent years. Something that the Bible Project and you don't acknowledge that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 that validates it. So no-one is going to become Amil.

There are two possible combinations for the parable of the fig tree generation remaining. One based on 70 years for a generation. And the other based on 80 years for a generation.

Bob_1000 said:

When Jesus cursed the fig tree he said "let no fruit grow on you from right now and forever more", which could only mean the fig tree was dead forever, never to come back to life again. Am I wrong on this?

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

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Your observation is not wrong. That's exactly what the text indicates.


Matthew 21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.


This to me doesn't sound like there is something cryptic involved. Such as what Douggg is proposing. First the passage says this---Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

Sounds like to me He may have literally been hungry at the time. Then He sees a fig tree in the way---as in food finally. Because, after all, the text indicates He was hungered. But then when He gets to the tree He finds nothing thereon, but leaves only. What He did next was to curse this particular fig tree, not fig trees in general. IOW, if this fig tree was supposed to be symbolizing something cryptic, that should mean that what happened to this fig tree should happen to all fig trees, yet it didn't. His disciples then marveled at His ability to do this like that. He then answered and said unto them, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Once again, there is nothing cryptic in this. This fig tree is not symbolizing something, such as it symbolizing the unbelieving Jews, since I can't recall how many times others have used this passage against the unbelieving Jews, that Jesus cursed them, therefore God has washed His hands of the unbelieving Jews permanently, and that this passage proves it. Nor is it symbolizing what Douggg is proposing. Jesus told His disciples that even they can do what was done to this fig tree themselves, if they have faith, and doubt not. What does that have to do with anything cryptic involving the fate of Jews?

Douggg said:

I have the infallible end times timeline framework chart which I did not have until recent years. Something that the Bible Project and you don't acknowledge that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 that validates it. So no-one is going to become Amil.

There are two possible combinations for the parable of the fig tree generation remaining. One based on 70 years for a generation. And the other based on 80 years for a generation.

View attachment 303920

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The first thing to note is that this imagery comes from Ezekiel 38 and 39, which itself was highly symbolic and not literal. Gog is a personification of enemy nations, much like Ezekiel does with other names like Oholah/Oholibah in Chapter 23. Gog is an ancient name from Genesis invoking powerful nations from the distant past. Gog symbolises all God's powerful human enemies. Now the judgement imagery is thorough and awful destruction - but not literal - because it's inconsistent and contradictory. Then the mopping up exercise with the highly symbolic seven months to bury the dead and 7 years to burn all the weapons (as fuel for Israel) is also inconsistent, because it takes 7 months to bury the dead but the dead are all going to be eaten by the birds of prey, etc. Also, seven means perfection: Israel is given the perfect amount of time to heal from her enemies.
Watch the Bible Project on this second half of Ezekiel for more context. 7 minutes (Nearly 1.3 million views.)

I think the Bible Project was under pressure to include the first 'literal' interpretation of this temple because of the huge rise of the various Millennialisms in the United States after the popularisation of the Scofield study bible. No other force (except maybe for Hollywood and the rise of The Omen movies etc) has shaped American eschatology as profoundly. But the Bible Project hints at the fact that they side with the symbolic reading of the temple - given that everything else in Ezekiel is symbolic.

Now, what does all this mean for a literal futurist reading of Revelation? Basically it adds no credibility whatsoever to a literalist future timetable for a war involving Gog. Ezekiel's Gog is as symbolic and metaphorical as it is in Revelation. Futurist literalistic assumptions - so desperate to plead the case for their 'literal timetable' - have run roughshod over the evidence we have from Ezekiel and Revelation that both books tell us REAL theological truths in profoundly symbolic language. The Bible Project (nearly 2.1 million views) shows how John includes Gog in a vast collection of all the symbolic metaphors of the enemies of God. Futurists read Gog as some sort of literal prediction to decipher. But seen in context, both Ezekiel and Revelation are clear that it is a symbolic genre of literature using powerful metaphors to preach theological truths to encourage all Christians, for the last 2000 years and beyond.

Reducing it to some sort of future timetable for the last 7 years is not sensible, robs it of meaning for the Christians of the last 2000 years, and will have Christians fighting over their literalistic timetables for all time to come. It even risks the paranoia associated with death-cults like Jonestown and the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas. It's got to stop! John was writing a symbolic sermon to his generation for ALL Christians to be encouraged, for all time to come.

Spiritual Jew said:

This passage has absolutely nothing to do with "a general Jewish redemption and conversion". How do you figure that it does?

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Who is the unto us? What kingdom was David king over? Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. The church was not around when Jesus was born.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The woman, Israel, the Jews, flee into the wilderness in Revelation 12:14. Those are the one's among the Jews in Judeah who heed Jesus warning to flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place.

Not able to persecute them, the dragon goes after the remainder of her children in Revelation 12:17, them who did not flee right away, and are the ones in Zechariah 14 that Jesus rescues, by them fleeing through the split in the Mt. of Olives. They keep the commandments of God, i.e. they are Jews, and have the testimony of Jesus, as they have become Christians in Revelation 12:10 in the middle of the 7 years.

The great tribulation begins in the middle of the 7 years. In Isaiah 66:8, as soon as Zion travailed (in pain - the great tribulation) she brought forth her children - Jews, born again.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

eclipsenow said:

The first thing to note is that this imagery comes from Ezekiel 38 and 39, which itself was highly symbolic and not literal.

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Jesus Himself is highly symbolic? You are evading who is speaking in v21-29.

Douggg said:

Jesus Himself is highly symbolic? You are evading who is speaking in v21-29.

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You are evading everything else I submitted in a longer post.
You are evading why you are reading Ezekiel as MORE important or up-to-date than the New Testament? It doesn't work that way - the NT interprets the OT, not the other way around.

Try again!
Read it again and see if you can break these arguments.

The first thing to note is that this imagery comes from Ezekiel 38 and 39, which itself was highly symbolic and not literal. Gog is a personification of enemy nations, much like Ezekiel does with other names like Oholah/Oholibah in Chapter 23. Gog is an ancient name from Genesis invoking powerful nations from the distant past. Gog symbolises all God's powerful human enemies. Now the judgement imagery is thorough and awful destruction - but not literal - because it's inconsistent and contradictory. Then the mopping up exercise with the highly symbolic seven months to bury the dead and 7 years to burn all the weapons (as fuel for Israel) is also inconsistent, because it takes 7 months to bury the dead but the dead are all going to be eaten by the birds of prey, etc. Also, seven means perfection: Israel is given the perfect amount of time to heal from her enemies.
Watch the Bible Project on this second half of Ezekiel for more context. 7 minutes (Nearly 1.3 million views.)

I think the Bible Project was under pressure to include the first 'literal' interpretation of this temple because of the huge rise of the various Millennialisms in the United States after the popularisation of the Scofield study bible. No other force (except maybe for Hollywood and the rise of The Omen movies etc) has shaped American eschatology as profoundly. But the Bible Project hints at the fact that they side with the symbolic reading of the temple - given that everything else in Ezekiel is symbolic.

Now, what does all this mean for a literal futurist reading of Revelation? Basically it adds no credibility whatsoever to a literalist future timetable for a war involving Gog. Ezekiel's Gog is as symbolic and metaphorical as it is in Revelation. Futurist literalistic assumptions - so desperate to plead the case for their 'literal timetable' - have run roughshod over the evidence we have from Ezekiel and Revelation that both books tell us REAL theological truths in profoundly symbolic language. The Bible Project (nearly 2.1 million views) shows how John includes Gog in a vast collection of all the symbolic metaphors of the enemies of God. Futurists read Gog as some sort of literal prediction to decipher. But seen in context, both Ezekiel and Revelation are clear that it is a symbolic genre of literature using powerful metaphors to preach theological truths to encourage all Christians, for the last 2000 years and beyond.

Reducing it to some sort of future timetable for the last 7 years is not sensible, robs it of meaning for the Christians of the last 2000 years, and will have Christians fighting over their literalistic timetables for all time to come. It even risks the paranoia associated with death-cults like Jonestown and the Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas. It's got to stop! John was writing a symbolic sermon to his generation for ALL Christians to be encouraged, for all time to come.

eclipsenow said:

You are evading everything else I submitted in a longer post.

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Posting the same long post 3 times, or a 100 times, is not addressing that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

eclipsenow said:

Then the mopping up exercise with the highly symbolic seven months to bury the dead and 7 years to burn all the weapons (as fuel for Israel) is also inconsistent, because it takes 7 months to bury the dead but the dead are all going to be eaten by the birds of prey, etc. Also, seven means perfection: Israel is given the perfect amount of time to heal from her enemies.
Watch the Bible Project on this second half of Ezekiel for more context. 7 minutes (Nearly 1.3 million views.)

Click to expand...

Maybe you need to try and read the text a bit closer and try and do some of the thinking on your own without always having to rely on others to do some of your thinking for you, such as these videos you keep promoting because they get a lot of views. Some of those videos also get a number of thumbs down as well, which apparently means that not everyone watching those videos are convinced they are correct about everything they are proposing in those videos.

Ezekiel 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

While animals might eat the flesh of dead bodies, how many of them also devour their bones, as if that person never existed, meaning one can't find a trace of them anywhere because fowls and beasts devoured them whole, bones and all, thus not leaving one single trace of them remaining?

Plus, every place in the Bible where numbers are followed by years, they are always taken in the literal sense. If Ezekiel 39 says 7 years in regards to burning weapons, it is then meaning 7 literal years the same way it would be meaning 7 literal years in any other passage involving a 7 year period.

Douggg said:

Posting the same long post 3 times, or a 100 times, is not addressing that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

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Hmmm, we can kind of get there by modern theology allowing for the fact that God the Father directs us to his word through Jesus and we know that Jesus Spirit the Holy Spirit has worked in creating the God-breathed word - but that's a theological way to get there. It's not the concern of the immediate passage, which is Israel in exile. We know who is speaking. The passage tells us.

You're only tempted to just plain ASSERT (without evidence) against the clear intentions of the passage that it is Jesus speaking to try and make this passage say something about today, or the immediate future. It doesn't. It's historical. It talks about how Gog will be defeated, that spirit of God's enemies that is out to stop God's purposes in his people. And then they'll return home. And then they'll get the Holy Spirit. Guess what?

They returned home.
They got the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
About 2000 years ago.
It happened.
It's history.
It's DONE.
Stop trying to rip it out of context and make OT prophecy about OT Israel apply to the church today. It doesn't. Not directly. There's lessons we can learn from it - just as we can from the Epistle to the Corinthians about meat sacrificed before idols - even though that's not really a literal concern for us today given modern supermarket chains tend not to sacrifice their meat to pagan gods. But we can learn from it. There are clever hermeneutical principles that help us get to the underlying ethical lessons and apply them today. It's the same with Ezekiel.

keras said:

I agree with it being the Lord Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29.
But it is not to the Jews only, it is to the House of Israel, who went into exile for their sins.
They were exiled for a decreed time of 390 years; Ezekiel 4:4-6, and Judah' exile was to be for 40 years.
These times were to be multiplied by 7 for Israel and by 7 X 7 For Judah. Leviticus 26:21-27
This calculates to 2520 years for the House of Israel and 1960 for Judah. Both are now very near to completion, [from 715 BC and 70 AD] and we can look forward to their great 2nd Exodus.
OUR great Exodus, as the true Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him and His people by descent or by grafting in. Psalms 107

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You obviously don't understand that often the 7 times something isn't literal, right? It means multiplied by God's perfect time. It means a lot - but in God's perfect time it will be fulfilled.

Like Jesus 7 horns and 7 eyes in Revelation?
Literal?

See, there are known number symbols in the Hebrew language and to ignore them is to simply not understand Hebrew. It's like trying to read English without understanding the different genres of English or some of our most common sayings - like "G'day mate" does not mean a typo of Good morning and does not mean I am someone's romantic partner.

3.5
6
7
12
10
1000
144,000

All have symbolic meanings. Can you list them?

keras said:

Only to a p. preterist and a Amill person who has to make them mean something other than what they actually say.

A few of the proper and valid usages:
3.5 - half of the final 7 years of this Church age.
6 - The Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event we can expect.
7 - 7 years of drought and 7 years of plenty in Egypt. The 7year treaty of Daniel 8:27.
12 - the Disciples. The 12 sons of Jacob.
10 - the 10 Northern Tribes of the House of Israel. still remain scattered around the world.
1000 - the final age of mortal mankind. King Jesus will rule the world then.
144,000 - 12,000 righteous people selected out of the 12 tribes. They will go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

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Now now - that's your subjective timetable showing again.

The reality in a more peer-reviewed, historically informed world is that Hebrew numbers have all kinds of significance. This is old knowledge, not something that you can accuse Sydney Anglicans of dreaming up the way other things have been dreamed up lately. From wikipedia as a starting source...
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Numbers play an important role in Judaic ritual practices and are believed to be a means for understanding the divine. A Mishnaic textual source, Pirkei Avot 3:23, makes clear that the use of gematria is dated to at least the Tannaic period. This marriage between the symbolic and the physical found its pinnacle in the creation of the Tabernacle. The Hebrew word for symbol is ot, which, in early Judaism, denoted not only a sign, but also a visible religious token of the relation between God and man. It is largely held by Jewish leadership that the numerical dimensions of the temple are a "microcosm of creation ... that God used to create the Olamot-Universes."

1[edit]

• The gematria (numerical value) of the Hebrew letter א
• One is our God, in heaven and on earth - אחד אלוהינו שבשמיים ובארץ

2[edit]

• The gematria of the Hebrew letter ב
• Two are the tablets of the covenant - שני לוחות הברית
• The two of every unclean animal in Noah's Ark
• There are two inclinations - good (yetzer hatov) and bad (yetzer hara)
• The Tora beginning with letter beth, the fist book of Tora is called "In the beginning" בראשית (Bereishis) Genesis

3[edit]

• The gematria of the Hebrew letter ג
• Three are the Fathers (Patriarchs - שלושה אבות (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob)
• The three sons of Noah (Ham, Shem and Japheth)

4[edit]

• The gematria of the Hebrew letter ד
• Four are the Mothers (Matriarchs) - ארבע אימהות (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah)

5[edit]

• The gematria of the Hebrew letter ה
• Five are the books of the Torah - חמישה חומשי תורה
• The ten commandments were written as five on the left stone and five on the right (2nd. Rashi on Num. 7:23)
• The sections of the book of Psalms
• The number of knots in the tzitzit
• Number of aliyot on Yom Tov that does not coincide with Shabbat
• Date in Iyar of Yom Ha'atzmaut
• Number emphasized during Mimouna

6[edit]

• The gematria of the Hebrew letter ו
• Six are the books of the Mishnah - שישה סידרי משנה
• The six working days of the week
• The six days of Creation

7[edit]

• The number 7 is the Divine number of completion
• The general symbol for all association with God; the favorite religious number of Judaism, typifying the covenant of holiness and sanctification, and also all that was holy and sanctifying in purpose
• The Seven Laws of Noah
• The menorah in the Temple had seven lamps
• Acts of atonement and purification were accompanied by a sevenfold sprinkling
• A full week of shiva is seven days; the term "shiva" refers to the seven-day period
• Number of blessings in the Sheva Brachot[2]
• A woman in niddah following menstruation must count seven "clean days" prior to immersion in the mikvah
• Number of days of Sukkot[2]
• Number of days of Pesach (Israel)[2]
• Blessings in the Amidah of Shabbat, Yom Tov, and Musaf (except Rosh Hashanah)
• Number of aliyot on Shabbat[2]
• The gematria of the Hebrew letter ז
• The seven of every clean animal in Noah's Ark
• Seven are the days of the week - שיבעה ימי שבתא
• The sabbath year (shmita; Hebrew: שמיטה, literally "release"), also called the sabbatical year or shǝvi'it ( שביעית, literally "seventh"), is the seventh year of the seven-year agricultural cycle mandated by the Torah for the Land of Israel and is observed in contemporary Judaism.[2]

10[edit]

• The gematria of the Hebrew letter י
• Yodh, or in Jiddisj: 'Jud' stands for 'Jew (word)' - it's (therefore) linked to the tetragrammaton
• The Ten Commandments (עשרה דיבריא, aseret ha-dibrot, literally "Ten Utterances")
• The ten Plagues of Egypt
• Ten Jewish people form a minyan (referring to Exodus 18:32)
• Ten fingers of God (referring to Exodus 8:16–20, Exodus 31:18, and Deuteronomy 9:10)
• There are ten Sefirot (human and Godly characteristics) depicted in Kabbalah

12[edit]

• Twelve are the tribes of Israel - שנים עשר שיבטיא
• The high priest's breastplate (hoshen) had twelve precious stones embedded within them.
• The Temple Mount, located in Jerusalem, can be accessed through twelve gates
• Twelve is the age at which a Jewish female becomes obligated to follow Jewish law, or age at which Bat Mitzvah is attained (Orthodox tradition)
• There were twelve loaves of show-bread on the shulchan (table) in the Beit Hamikdash
• Sons of Jacob
• Number of springs of water at the Israelites' encampment following the incident at Marah
  Significance of numbers in Judaism - Wikipedia

keras said:

The Bible is Written for ALL people, for ALL times.
Anything in it is relevant to us, if it wasn't, then we may as well biff our Bibles away.

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2 Timothy 3:16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
One thing it doesn't say is, "for determining the last days". Every single person who's tried has been wrong, making a mockery of the Word of God before the unbeliever. No way on earth can that be called a good work.