Free Will is Taught in the Bible...

Libertarian free will as the product of a philosophical echo chamber is fairly useless.

To simplify, I boil the problem down to some simple questions:

Should we accept that observable phenomena can be spontaneous/uncaused? If no, then libertarian free will is ruled out fairly easily. But this does not rule out "free will" as implied by common vernacular, reason being, unless we're doing philosophy, we don't intend to be examining the nature of choice and will, therefore the implied meaning cannot be equivalent to the philosophical definition of libertarian free will.

Should we accept that choices do occur? If no, then we must accept that our minds are playing tricks on us.

The ideas that 1) our actions are not spontaneous (they are caused) and 2) choices do occur, can be reconciled abstractly, observing that we are intelligent agents and unrealized, potential futures do influence our actions, presently. In other words, causality itself, being caused by former events, can edit itself through our agency.

Coincidentally I find both aspects represented fairly well in scripture.

TedT said:

So you refuse to try to answer the question about Adam and Eve?

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God created Adam without sin. But with a nature that would sin when provided with a law to break. Adam wanted to sin or he would not have. That's my position on Adam.

John Mullally said:

I believe 2 Cor 4:3-4 accounts for why many do not obtain eternal life. Many do not understand the love of God and His Gospel. His Gospel is able to lead them to the new birth via the promise of Acts 2:38. If Calvinist Total Depravity is true, there would be no need for Paul to mention Satan's efforts to veil the Gospel from anyone - because Satan's efforts don't change anything.

2 Cor 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

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Once again the notion, that Calvinism teaches that predetermined events are automatic, shows its false face!

God uses means to accomplish his ends. How many more times, in how many different ways, must this be said? (Yes, I am feeling frustrated.)

Mark Quayle said:

Once again the notion, that Calvinism teaches that predetermined events are automatic, shows its false face!

God uses means to accomplish his ends. How many more times, in how many different ways, must this be said? (Yes, I am feeling frustrated.)

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Correct me where you disagree: Calvinists teach Monergism - that redemption is a work of God alone. If it is a work of God alone, then neither the will of man or the devil can change it.

I did not change the topic, no Goal Posts were moved.

Dave L said:

God created Adam without sin. But with a nature that would sin when provided with a law to break. Adam wanted to sin or he would not have. That's my position on Adam.

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Yes, I understand but I still don't understand how you reconcile this pov with the contradiction to the scripture I posted...?

IOW, how is the contradiction resolved?

John Mullally said:

Calvinists teach Monergism - that redemption is a work of God alone.

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Isn't it a bit more than redemption, ie does not their Monergism cover the creation of evil and the fall of the reprobate also?

TedT said:

Yes, I understand but I still don't understand how you reconcile this pov with the contradiction to the scripture I posted...?

IOW, how is the contradiction resolved?

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Perhaps I missed it. State it again, perhaps more clearly.

John Mullally said:

Correct me where you disagree: Calvinists teach Monergism - that redemption is a work of God alone. If it is a work of God alone, then neither the will of man or the devil can change it.

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Haha, for the third time today on this site: "God uses means to accomplish his ends." And that, both positive and negative ends. He uses the devil to blind them, as you said. HE, GOD, uses the devil to accomplish what he determined. The devil has changed nothing, but stepped precisely into the role God determined the devil would play. How then, does that mean the devil changed anything? God also uses their own corrupt will to blind them. Did they change anything?

Granted, some Calvinists use the same thing you criticize, for an excuse. They should not do so. Once I was saying to a friend that I was very concerned, that I had not induced a lost friend to know Christ, if no other way, just by maintaining contact. And he told me not to worry about it, that it was God's will that it be so. He was right, in that God's [hidden] will is shown in whatever happens. But he was wrong, because God may have used my laziness to continue to blind that friend.

John Mullally said:

I did not change the topic, no Goal Posts were moved.

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Dave had been talking with you about the question of the law being a threat of death for sinners, and you went to Adam and Eve (innocent, not sinners at the time they were given the command, which you did in order (as it seemed to me, anyway) to prove that the law's threat of death was not given for sinners.) But the question was not about Adam and Eve who were obviously exceptions to the rest of us, who are born into sin, slaves to sin. The argument was about the purpose of the law for the rest of us.

By the way, off topic, where is that picture taken, you've got for avatar? Looks like Alaska. I love it.

Mark Quayle said:

By the way, off topic, where is that picture taken, you've got for avatar? Looks like Alaska. I love it.

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Thanks for responding. I agree God uses means (which is not saying much). I view that God is looking for partners. Jesus sent his disciples (partners) out - near the end of His ministry Jesus called them friends. Who would not want to be called that by our Lord?

The photo is from a trip in the Wind River range of Wyoming. Outfitters truck you out on your own (no guide) with llamas and training. You walk and lead the llamas that pack everything. At the end they truck you back. Great trip - my teenage daughter especially loved the llamas! Very glad the llamas don't spit.

TedT said:

Your answer contradicts 1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers etc... to achieve HIS purpose of opening our eyes to our need for a saviour, not to direct the path of the innocent: Romans 3:20... rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

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I've asked you to address this contradiction twice before...

Dave L said:

Perhaps I missed it. State it again, perhaps more clearly.

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And perhaps you were ducking the question.

Well, now is the time to show me your truth.

TedT said:

I've asked you to address this contradiction twice before...


And perhaps you were ducking the question.

Well, now is the time to show me your truth.

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I replied to this question showing that it's the law written in everyone's heart that sends all but the elect to hell. The Ten Commandments are now defunct and were given only to OT Israel. Abolished by the New Covenant.