Eternal Security

Brightfame52 said:

Im not talking about what i know, or what you know, but what Jesus promised, they shall never perish. I know Jesus said that, can you trust that ?

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Of course, as I said ,there's no argument that the elect are the elect

MMXX said:

What amounts to disowning Christ?
Is it strictly when someone decides they no longer believe in Christ and become an agnostic or atheist or join a non-christian religion?

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Yeah I think those are two examples.

Biblewriter said:

The answer to your erroneous claims is found in 1 John 2:18-19, "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

This scripture clearly tells us that those that fall away were never really believers.

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Awesome your finally back. So what are your thoughts on John 15:1-7? Jesus specifically states that the Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. He also said anyone who does not remain in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

Then there’s 2 Timothy 2:12.

How can these not relate to a loss of salvation?

The believer is kept by the power of God. 1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

That word kept phroureō means:

o guard, protect by a military guard, either to prevent hostile invasion, or to keep the inhabitants of a besieged city from flight

1. To protect by guarding, to keep
   
   
2. by watching and guarding to preserve one for the attainment of something
   

So Gods Power prevents the believer from leaving God, God keeps them from falling.

Its like when the Prophet writes Jer 32:40


And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Thats Like saying they shall not perish !

Brightfame52 said:

Do you take Christ at His Word, they shall never perish. He is responsible for making that promise good.

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Absolutely, but surely you can agree that this doesn’t pertain to those who hear and follow for a short time then later fall away.

Biblewriter said:

The answer to your erroneous claims is found in 1 John 2:18-19, "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

This scripture clearly tells us that those that fall away were never really believers.

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No that’s not what was said at all. The word “they” refers to a particular group of people not everyone.

BNR32FAN said:

Yeah I think those are two examples.

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I was asking if it was limited to that.

Biblewriter said:

In John 3:16, the Greek word translated "believes" is πιστευων, pisteuon in our alphabet. This a present tense form of the Greek verb πιστευω, pisteuo in our alphabet, word number 4100 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. The present tense does not even imply continuous belief. Such an implication would require the aorist tense, which was NOY used here.

Again, the same form of the same Greek word is translated "believes" in John 5:24. And in that verse, we are explicitly told that such a person "has passed from death into life." The Greek word translated "has passed" is μεταβεβηκεν, metabebeken in our alphabet, a past perfect form of the Greek verb μεταβαίνω, metabaino in our alphabet, word number 3327 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. The past perfect tense not only states that the action took place in the past, but that it was completed in the past. So this word translates literally as "has already passed," as some modern ranslations render it.

So, not only is no action on our part required for salvation, the scriptures do not even imply that a continuous belief is required. Once the belief is real, an absolute and irrevocable (see Romans 11:29) change has already taken place.

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As for John 5:24:

In John 5:24 it says that we have to not only believe in Jesus, but we have to hear His word (obey) Jesus so as to pass from life unto death. For John 12:48 says that he (the person) who does not receive His words, those words will judge them on the last day. What words of Jesus can we not receive that can judge us? Oh, things like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62 just to name a few. So we have to be in constant state of belief and obedience to Jesus in order for the promise of John 5:24 to be applied. Also, Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So we need to abide in Christ who is the source of eternal life. One of the ways we can have an assurance that we know Christ is if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). But the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

As for Romans 11:29:

Well, when you read Romans 11:29, you have to read it in context. Romans 9-11 deals with Israel and their lack of not accepting the Messiah and His grace. The one time free will offer of accepting Jesus and His grace and His call will not be taken away for Israel. God will not take this new way of salvation away for them if they change and repent and accept Jesus. That free will offer is still on the table for Israel. For we know Romans 11:29 is talking to the unsaved Jew because Romans 11:28 in context says this: “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

Also, Romans 11 is proof against Eternal Security because it says this:


It says that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief. No eternal security saved them. It says that we stand by faith and we are told to be not high minded but to fear. Why? It says if God spared not the natural branches, take heed that He also spare not you. Thus we have to continue in God’s goodness otherwise we can be cut off, too. What goodness? A sin and still be saved type belief? No. God’s goodness can be His grace if we do honestly stumble on rare occasion unintentionally, but His goodness is actually living holy after we are saved by His grace. For Titus 2:11-12 says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Biblewriter said:

The answer to your erroneous claims is found in 1 John 2:18-19, "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

This scripture clearly tells us that those that fall away were never really believers.

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We are told:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

These things in Scripture would not exist if things are as you say.

BNR32FAN said:

Absolutely, but surely you can agree that this doesn’t pertain to those who hear and follow for a short time then later fall away.

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Then if you take Christ at His Word, then you know the Sheep shall never perish, thats eternal security friend.

Biblewriter said:

The answer to your erroneous claims is found in 1 John 2:18-19, "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

This scripture clearly tells us that those that fall away were never really believers.

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You also do not appear to realize that John was talking to the gnostic false believers who were trying to seduce the true brethren.

“These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.” (1 John 2:26).

This is why the apostle John warned the true brethren in 1 John 1:8 of the false gnostic belief that denied sin’s existence (which includes the punishment of death - Romans 6:23). For the false gnostics denied that they have ever sinned even in their old past life (See: 1 John 1:10). 1 John 1:8 is a denial of sin’s existence in the present tense. 1 John 1:10 is a denial of sin’s existence in the past tense. Today, Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 would be a warnings to them to not think this way. The sin and still be saved type believers today or many of those who hold to Eternal Security believe that they do not lose salvation when they sin because Jesus paid for all their future sins by their having a belief alone on Jesus as the Savior or in trusting in the finished work of the cross. This means that while they believe sin physically exists, they are denying that sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for all their future sin by their faith in Him. This would mean 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them, as well (for they are denying sin’s existence partially for their life) and they are not properly dealing with sin by believing that if they confess their sins Jesus is actually forgiving their sins and cleansing them from all unrighteousness.

The gnostic believers also believed that Jesus did not come in the flesh, as well. For this is why the apostle John warned the brethren to test the spirits (people, dreams, writings from the minds of men), (See: 1 John 4:2-3).

Brightfame52 said:

Then if you take Christ at His Word, then you know the Sheep shall never perish, thats eternal security friend.

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Unless they decide to become goats by falling away into false beliefs.

MMXX said:

I was asking if it was limited to that.

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No I don’t believe so. Failing to bear fruit, becoming lukewarm, and constantly grieving the Holy Spirit can also disconnect us from Him.

Brightfame52 said:

Then if you take Christ at His Word, then you know the Sheep shall never perish, thats eternal security friend.

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No it’s called perseverance because the person’s salvation is contingent upon them remaining in Christ.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ NASB

renniks said:

Unless they decide to become goats by falling away into false beliefs.

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Thats Jesus responsibility, He made the promise they shall never perish.

BNR32FAN said:

No it’s called perseverance because the person’s salvation is contingent upon them remaining in Christ.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ NASB

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No its Jesus responsibility to preserve the Sheep to everlasting life and glory, He said they shall never perish, thats His promise and He must make it good or be found a liar.

Brightfame52 said:

Thats Jesus responsibility, He made the promise they shall never perish.

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Who? The sheep, ie believers. That's who the promises are made to. Not to athiests, not to former believers.

Brightfame52 said:

No its Jesus responsibility to preserve the Sheep to everlasting life and glory, He said they shall never perish, thats His promise and He must make it good or be found a liar.

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Then how could Paul and Timothy possibly deny Christ? Or how could anyone fail to remain in Christ?

BNR32FAN said:

No I don’t believe so. Failing to bear fruit, becoming lukewarm, and constantly grieving the Holy Spirit can also disconnect us from Him.

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Failing to bear any fruit at all or failing to bear enough fruit?

renniks said:

Who? The sheep, ie believers. That's who the promises are made to. Not to athiests, not to former believers.

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It was Jesus who said the Sheep who were given to Him by His Father, that they shall never perish. Since He made the promise, not the Sheep, He is responsible that they never perish, or He lied !