The tension between works and faith

fhansen · Aug 5, 2021

zoidar said:
The conclusion I have come to is that there is a tension between faith and works. The idea is that we are saved purely by faith, but if we don't have works/obedience in our life, our faith is not saving faith.

Faith is about entering fellowship/communion with God, as per the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:33-34, this part:
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.

Within that justified state, that state of justice consisting of the relationship that Adam essentially scorned and forfeited, a union that man was absolutely made for, God gives man the righteousness he was created to have, which can only come from Him,
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

So, the first part of Jer 31: 33:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

So there's no tension between faith and works because faith is, simply, finally, the authentic means to the righteousness that man was created to have-because it's the means to God. Jesus came to reconcile man with God, revealing His true "face" so that we'll know Him, and by knowing Him we'll believe and by believing we'll hope in, and, most importantly, we’ll love Him. This righteousness comes from being under grace, not under the law, living by the Spirit, not by the letter, and produces works of grace, works of God, works of love to put it best since man's justice or righteousness is most fully defined by love which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. This is God's work in us, the new covenant accomplishing what the old could not.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing" John 15:5.

That's what we're here to learn-of the beauty, truth, trustworthiness, mercy, and love of God-and of our absolute need for Him in order to have "life and life abundantly"-and to finally be the people He created us to be.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

zoidar · Aug 5, 2021

Very much deleted post! ^_^

zoidar · Aug 5, 2021

Soyeong said:
Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so I don't see how you can say that the law he was referring to is not of faith.

Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which again is why Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law and why there are many verses that associate our faith with our obedience to God or associate breaking faith with disobedience to him. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the Mosaic Law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver, while to deny that faith is part of it is to deny the faithfulness of the Lawgiver.

In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith. In Psalms 119:29-30, Jesus wanted to put false ways far form Him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and to choose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

I will just quote from the commentator Matthew Poole. Do whatever you like with it. God bless!

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
We have much the same Luke 11:42, only there it is, Ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God. It is manifest by our Saviour’s words in the latter part of the verse,

these ought ye to have done, that he doth not blame the Pharisees’ exactness in tithing mint, anise, rue, cummin, and all manner of herbs; but their neglecting the weightier matters of the law, faith and love to God, judgment and mercy. The Levites having no inheritance: God ordained tithes for their maintenance; of which also the poor were to have a share, Leviticus 27:30 Numbers 18:24. The Pharisee boasted, Luke 18:12, that he paid tithe of all he possessed. Christ here acknowledgeth that the Pharisees were exact in their paying tithes; but he blames them,

1. For their partiality, neglecting the weightier things of the law.

2. For their hypocrisy; they were only exact in these little things, that they might be taken notice of as scrupulous observers of the Divine law; while they omitted those things, which were of much more weight, which he reckoneth up: faith, by which some understand faith in God, but the most, faithfulness, and sincere and honest dealings with men, in opposition to fraud, and cheating, and circumventions.

Judgment, by which he means justice, giving to every one what is their own.

Mercy, by which he means a charitable behaviour, in helping such as are miserable and afflicted.

Love to God, which is the true root, out of which all things should flow, and is indeed comprehensive of all our duty toward God, as well as the root of all our good works towards men."

zoidar · Aug 5, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Your performance is yours to work on, to seriously consider and improve, but the meaning is God's to judge. You are incapable of passing true judgement on yourself.

Yet we have the principles in Scripture, that if we walk in the flesh we are none of his. And if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

So walk in the Spirit.

Thanks for the warning! I know I needed that. God bless!

Mark Quayle · Aug 5, 2021

zoidar said:
I agree with you, but not your theology. I KNOW I was born again. So from Reformed theology I can live in the flesh as much as I like and I will still be saved. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. (Well, you said to....)

I agree you don't agree with my theology. From Reformed theology you can NOT live in the flesh as much as you like and still be saved. It is not that you lose your salvation, but that you never had it to begin with, if you live in the flesh as much as you like. KNOWING you were born again is not what seals your rebirth as a fact.

zoidar said:
I believe though that a born again believer can fall away, which means I can't live in the flesh if I want to be saved.

Depending on what is meant by 'fall away', the Elect cannot finally fall away —that is, they will become what God made them for— and none of them can say that it is because of their performance, but they will obey, according to James, Paul etc. by the grace of God.

Reading what you say here, it seems to me that you want Reformed Theology to claim the salvation and works are automatic, no thanks to the believer. Somehow you seem to have missed what we really believe.

Not long ago, a thread was started here asking something along the lines of, "Is prophecy ever fulfilled for the simple purpose of having it fulfilled?" I didn't read it, but I can guess it referenced Christ doing this action or that thing, and the Gospels saying things like, that he did it "...that the prophecy...might be fulfilled concerning him...". Leaving alone the arguments about the language of the text referencing purpose, for now, I use this example to point out, that there are things in life, that show that we who want God to do things how we envision they should happen, often don't know God's ways very well. We want it to work like clockwork, while God gives us a jigsaw puzzle.

God has given us his command —his Spirit in us will not let us rest in known disobedience— we MUST obey. "This is the theory, and look! we find we are making the theory work —not the other way around. Yet, there we are! The theory is working!" As my family says, "We do so because it IS so."

I, also, cannot live in the flesh, if I am one of the elect.

zoidar · Aug 5, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You're wrong. (Well, you said to....)

I agree you don't agree with my theology. From Reformed theology you can NOT live in the flesh as much as you like and still be saved. It is not that you lose your salvation, but that you never had it to begin with, if you live in the flesh as much as you like. KNOWING you were born again is not what seals your rebirth as a fact.

Depending on what is meant by 'fall away', the Elect cannot finally fall away —that is, they will become what God made them for— and none of them can say that it is because of their performance, but they will obey, according to James, Paul etc. by the grace of God.

Reading what you say here, it seems to me that you want Reformed Theology to claim the salvation and works are automatic, no thanks to the believer. Somehow you seem to have missed what we really believe.

Not long ago, a thread was started here asking something along the lines of, "Is prophecy ever fulfilled for the simple purpose of having it fulfilled?" I didn't read it, but I can guess it referenced Christ doing this action or that thing, and the Gospels saying things like, that he did it "...that the prophecy...might be fulfilled concerning him...". Leaving alone the arguments about the language of the text referencing purpose, for now, I use this example to point out, that there are things in life, that show that we who want God to do things how we envision they should happen, often don't know God's ways very well. We want it to work like clockwork, while God gives us a jigsaw puzzle.

God has given us his command —his Spirit in us will not let us rest in known disobedience— we MUST obey. "This is the theory, and look! we find we are making the theory work —not the other way around. Yet, there we are! The theory is working!" As my family says, "We do so because it IS so."

I, also, cannot live in the flesh, if I am one of the elect.

Sorry Mark! I deleted my post. But I can see you got to it before me. I know your meaning was well and I reacted the wrong way. My apologies!

Mark Quayle · Aug 5, 2021

Soyeong said:
Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so I don't see how you can say that the law he was referring to is not of faith.

zoidar said:
I will just quote from the commentator Matthew Poole. Do whatever you like with it. God bless!

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
We have much the same Luke 11:42, only there it is, Ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God. It is manifest by our Saviour’s words in the latter part of the verse,

these ought ye to have done, that he doth not blame the Pharisees’ exactness in tithing mint, anise, rue, cummin, and all manner of herbs; but their neglecting the weightier matters of the law, faith and love to God, judgment and mercy. The Levites having no inheritance: God ordained tithes for their maintenance; of which also the poor were to have a share, Leviticus 27:30 Numbers 18:24. The Pharisee boasted, Luke 18:12, that he paid tithe of all he possessed. Christ here acknowledgeth that the Pharisees were exact in their paying tithes; but he blames them,

1. For their partiality, neglecting the weightier things of the law.

2. For their hypocrisy; they were only exact in these little things, that they might be taken notice of as scrupulous observers of the Divine law; while they omitted those things, which were of much more weight, which he reckoneth up: faith, by which some understand faith in God, but the most, faithfulness, and sincere and honest dealings with men, in opposition to fraud, and cheating, and circumventions.

Judgment, by which he means justice, giving to every one what is their own.

Mercy, by which he means a charitable behaviour, in helping such as are miserable and afflicted.

Love to God, which is the true root, out of which all things should flow, and is indeed comprehensive of all our duty toward God, as well as the root of all our good works towards men."

Soyeong, the preposition 'of', in the language construction, "of the law", doesn't mean that faith is legal, nor that the law includes faith, but simply as other places in Scripture say, that the law 'concerns' faith, among other weighty matters. The love of God and neighbor, faith fulfilling the law, is the summation of the law.

Mark Quayle · Aug 5, 2021

zoidar said:
Sorry Mark! I deleted my post. But I can see you got to it before me. I know your meaning was well and I reacted the wrong way. My apologies!

No offense. You are my brother.

zoidar · Aug 5, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You're wrong. (Well, you said to....)

I agree you don't agree with my theology. From Reformed theology you can NOT live in the flesh as much as you like and still be saved. It is not that you lose your salvation, but that you never had it to begin with, if you live in the flesh as much as you like. KNOWING you were born again is not what seals your rebirth as a fact.

Depending on what is meant by 'fall away', the Elect cannot finally fall away —that is, they will become what God made them for— and none of them can say that it is because of their performance, but they will obey, according to James, Paul etc. by the grace of God.

Reading what you say here, it seems to me that you want Reformed Theology to claim the salvation and works are automatic, no thanks to the believer. Somehow you seem to have missed what we really believe.

Not long ago, a thread was started here asking something along the lines of, "Is prophecy ever fulfilled for the simple purpose of having it fulfilled?" I didn't read it, but I can guess it referenced Christ doing this action or that thing, and the Gospels saying things like, that he did it "...that the prophecy...might be fulfilled concerning him...". Leaving alone the arguments about the language of the text referencing purpose, for now, I use this example to point out, that there are things in life, that show that we who want God to do things how we envision they should happen, often don't know God's ways very well. We want it to work like clockwork, while God gives us a jigsaw puzzle.

God has given us his command —his Spirit in us will not let us rest in known disobedience— we MUST obey. "This is the theory, and look! we find we are making the theory work —not the other way around. Yet, there we are! The theory is working!" As my family says, "We do so because it IS so."

I, also, cannot live in the flesh, if I am one of the elect.

I came off strong against Reformed theology, for some reason. I don't think the idea that the elect can't be lost is a bad idea, it might even be correct, but I don't share it at the moment.

I like to ask one thing. You wrote:

"KNOWING you were born again is not what seals your rebirth as a fact."

If not, then what does?

Soyeong · Aug 5, 2021

zoidar said:
I will just quote from the commentator Matthew Poole. Do whatever you like with it. God bless!

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
We have much the same Luke 11:42, only there it is, Ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God. It is manifest by our Saviour’s words in the latter part of the verse,

these ought ye to have done, that he doth not blame the Pharisees’ exactness in tithing mint, anise, rue, cummin, and all manner of herbs; but their neglecting the weightier matters of the law, faith and love to God, judgment and mercy. The Levites having no inheritance: God ordained tithes for their maintenance; of which also the poor were to have a share, Leviticus 27:30 Numbers 18:24. The Pharisee boasted, Luke 18:12, that he paid tithe of all he possessed. Christ here acknowledgeth that the Pharisees were exact in their paying tithes; but he blames them,

1. For their partiality, neglecting the weightier things of the law.

2. For their hypocrisy; they were only exact in these little things, that they might be taken notice of as scrupulous observers of the Divine law; while they omitted those things, which were of much more weight, which he reckoneth up: faith, by which some understand faith in God, but the most, faithfulness, and sincere and honest dealings with men, in opposition to fraud, and cheating, and circumventions.

Judgment, by which he means justice, giving to every one what is their own.

Mercy, by which he means a charitable behaviour, in helping such as are miserable and afflicted.

Love to God, which is the true root, out of which all things should flow, and is indeed comprehensive of all our duty toward God, as well as the root of all our good works towards men."

It's a good point that it can be interpreted as faithfulness in regard their dealings with men, though I don't see why it can't be referring to both because when we show faithfulness in regard to our dealings with men, we are also testifying about the faithfulness of God. Whenever we do what is righteous or express other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are testify about what we believe about the nature of who God is, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Furthermore, I listed many other verses that associate our faith in God with our obedience to Him, so even if were true that Matthew 23:23 weren't referring to faith in God, it would still be true that faith in God is one of the weightier matters of the law in that when we obey it, we are expressing faith in God to rightly guide us.

Mark Quayle · Aug 5, 2021

zoidar said:
I came off strong against Reformed theology, for some reason. I don't think the idea that the elect can't be lost is a bad idea, it might even be correct, but I don't share it at the moment.

I like to ask one thing. You wrote:

"KNOWING you were born again is not what seals your rebirth as a fact."

If not, then what does?

The Spirit of God. Salvific faith is not of man, because man is incapable of understanding what he is submitting to, incapable of fully submitting to it, as experience shows we don't always obey, incapable of integrity of obedience, incapable of the strength of will, ignorant of the depth of sin and the depth of the power in the work of God (i.e. just how far Jesus went for us), ignorant of the strength of the love of God. We are not the ones who know what we are doing, nor why, nor if we knew would we be strong enough to do it; we are silly, self-important, impetuous, weak. But the Spirit of God, who is God himself, knows exactly, loves completely, is faithful, and omnipotent. It is HIS gift of faith, become ours, as we are made new. It is only if it is generated by God's Spirit, small though that faith be, that it is REAL. And God placed that Spirit in us, sealing us as his.

Ephesians 1:13 “when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.”

Soyeong · Aug 5, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Soyeong, the preposition 'of', in the language construction, "of the law", doesn't mean that faith is legal, nor that the law includes faith, but simply as other places in Scripture say, that the law 'concerns' faith, among other weighty matters. The love of God and neighbor, faith fulfilling the law, is the summation of the law.

The law concerns faith among other weightier matters because our obedience to it is about relying or depending on God to rightly guide us. A sum is inclusive of all of its parts. All of the laws that God has given are examples of what it means to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the others hang on them, so they are all connected. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor is an example of what it means to obey the command to love our neighbor, so love fulfills the law because that is showing a correct understanding of what the law is essentially about how to do.

fhansen · Aug 5, 2021

pescador said:
Not forgetting to whom that sermon was spoken... There were no Christians in the audience!

A Christian is simply one who hears the words and acts on them, puts them into practice.

fhansen · Aug 5, 2021

zoidar said:
I came off strong against Reformed theology, for some reason. I don't think the idea that the elect can't be lost is a bad idea, it might even be correct, but I don't share it at the moment.

I like to ask one thing. You wrote:

"KNOWING you were born again is not what seals your rebirth as a fact."

If not, then what does?

Dont be fooled by novel theologies. God is perfectly trustworthy and true while man is the wildcard. Anyone who tells you that they have 100% certainty of their salvation is fooling themselves. And anyone who tells you that they can sin wantonly without losing their justified state before God would be twice the fool.

zoidar · Aug 6, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
The Spirit of God. Salvific faith is not of man, because man is incapable of understanding what he is submitting to, incapable of fully submitting to it, as experience shows we don't always obey, incapable of integrity of obedience, incapable of the strength of will, ignorant of the depth of sin and the depth of the power in the work of God (i.e. just how far Jesus went for us), ignorant of the strength of the love of God. We are not the ones who know what we are doing, nor why, nor if we knew would we be strong enough to do it; we are silly, self-important, impetuous, weak. But the Spirit of God, who is God himself, knows exactly, loves completely, is faithful, and omnipotent. It is HIS gift of faith, become ours, as we are made new. It is only if it is generated by God's Spirit, small though that faith be, that it is REAL. And God placed that Spirit in us, sealing us as his.

Ephesians 1:13 “when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.”

I think I get what you are saying, that only God can truly know if we were saved? I don't agree but I agree (if you agree) that only God knows the final outcome of a Christian's life in the end.

"silly, self-important, impetuous, weak". I guess we all have different sides to work on, but I like to add: By the Holy Spirit a lot of this can be overcome.

zoidar · Aug 6, 2021

fhansen said:
Dont be fooled by novel theologies. God is perfectly trustworthy and true while man is the wildcard. Anyone who tells you that they have 100% certainty of their salvation is fooling themselves. And anyone who tells you that they can sin wantonly without losing their justified state before God would be twice the fool.

I know you are a Catholic. When I say I'm 100% sure I was saved, it doesn't mean I'm 100% sure of salvation in the end. I know when Catholics say "saved" they refer to being saved at the final judgement. I use "saved" in two ways:

1. We are saved as we receive God's Spirit. Our position is now towards heaven.

2. If we stay in this course, if we endure until the end, we are eternally saved.

I see both described in the Bible:

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
— 2 Timothy 1:9

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
— Matthew 24:13

zoidar · Aug 6, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Your performance is yours to work on, to seriously consider and improve, but the meaning is God's to judge. You are incapable of passing true judgement on yourself.

Yet we have the principles in Scripture, that if we walk in the flesh we are none of his. And if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

So walk in the Spirit.

To be a bit personal. I met a girl who wasn't a very ... good person. Not to put the whole blame on her, but she didn't care about sin. I had to fight on my own, and I failed the test. So it lead to a life of sin. I was drawn away from God. The girl gave the impression she was a Christian, but it more and more turned out not to be true. The enemy, the accuser, does all he can to destroy our relationship with God.

fhansen · Aug 6, 2021

zoidar said:
1. We are saved as we receive God's Spirit. Our position is now towards heaven.

2. If we stay in this course, if we endure until the end, we are eternally saved.

This is Catholic teaching. Very much so.

zoidar · Aug 6, 2021

fhansen said:
This is Catholic teaching. Very much so.

I think there is a difference though when we believe we receive the Holy Spirit. Feel free to correct me. Catholics believe we receive the Holy Spirit at our baptism, I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we repent.

Mark Quayle · Aug 6, 2021

zoidar said:
To be a bit personal. I met a girl who wasn't a very ... good person. Not to put the whole blame on her, but she didn't care about sin. I had to fight on my own, and I failed the test. So it lead to a life of sin. I was drawn away from God. The girl gave the impression she was a Christian, but it more and more turned out not to be true. The enemy, the accuser, does all he can to destroy our relationship with God.

I hear you, brother. If our sins were counted against us, who could stand? The thought of all our worst, and all our unknown sins, being brought up before everyone, then imputed to Christ, will bring unimaginable praise to him. So much shame and punishment that I deserve, all put on him, because God loved me! The worst of it, to my mind, is knowing all that, yet after his pleadings and remonstrations and urging, after his many forgivenesses, that I can still sometimes turn my back on it all for the sake of momentary pleasure, KNOWING better, to me is unforgivable, but to him, is patience and forbearance, and already paid for at the cross.

The tension between works and faith

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Oldbie

Oldbie

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Oldbie

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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