The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Fervent

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Why do you argue for Damnationism if you claim to not believe in it? And why do you argue against UR if you haven't decided which doctrine you align with?

Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
I am skeptical about whether universalism can be supported Biblically, and while I haven't settled between whether I accept annhilationism or damnationism I can accept either as being possibilities since they seem to actually make sense of the Biblical data.
 
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Fervent

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That's quite a line of reasoning there. - lol

No problem with God torturing "sinners" for all eternity and calling it justice, but how could he be so cruel as to torture them to faith? Wow.

As if the God that is claimed to incinerate the vast majority in the afterlife would never DARE to violate our free will. Horrors!
If the eternal punishment aspect is true I don't believe God is the one administering the torture, simply giving them what they want. A world that is as if God does not exist. Which is a world of anguish and pain.

The absurdity I was highlighting is the knife that cuts the universalist position...either God is unjust because individuals go unpunished, or God is unjust because He overrides and completely dominates free will. In either case, God's justice is perverted.

The UR position seems to want to impose on God a restriction that rather than upholding true justice turns it into some monstrous thing.
 
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Lazarus Short

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If the eternal punishment aspect is true I don't believe God is the one administering the torture, simply giving them what they want. A world that is as if God does not exist. Which is a world of anguish and pain.

The absurdity I was highlighting is the knife that cuts the universalist position...either God is unjust because individuals go unpunished, or God is unjust because He overrides and completely dominates free will. In either case, God's justice is perverted.

The UR position seems to want to impose on God a restriction that rather than upholding true justice turns it into some monstrous thing.

Is God unjust because some go unpunished? In a System that states you are guilty of all if you have violated the least, itty-bitty bit, where is the injustice in God granting a Free Pass for All? God's Ways and Thoughts are higher than ours. Our way is to fine, jail and punish all - God's Way is to pardon all. You tell me which is more just. As for that sacred cow, Free Will, it is easy to point out instances where God overrode it. God is all-powerful and sovereign, He can (and does) do as He pleases...
 
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Clare73

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SaintSteven said:
There are no doctrines in the Bible, because doctrines are man-made.
Scripture isn't doctrine.
And who made you Lawgiver?
Doctrine is how scripture is interpreted.
The following do not need "interpretation" to be doctrine:

"Justification is apart from faith's works" (Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28).

"Salvation is. . .without faith's works" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

". . .whover believes in the Son shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)
etc., etc., etc.

John 3:16, John 6:65 and John 6:37 don't negate UR,
You misunderstand my use of them--not as negating UR, but as demonstration of doctrine not reqjiring "interpretation."
because (as I understand it) UR teaches that the Father will enable all to come to believe in Jesus and recognize Him as their Lord and Savior. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10-11
 
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Clare73

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I think we both agree that aionios can mean eternal but it
can also mean a duration of a limited time period that has an end.
NT Scriptures, please, where aionios is used to mean limited time.
So, we are talking about whether or not aionios means eternity or a limited time period in Matthew 25:31-46 as regards punishment.
And I have demonstrated that the consistent NT usage of aionios to mean "unending" removes all question as to its usage in Matthew 25:46.
You have presented no demonstration otherwise.
You are saying that since aionios is used for both life and punishment, it has to have the same meaning in both cases.
Straw man previously addressed.
I am not saying that the meaning of aionios in Matthew 25:46 is based on anything in Matthew 25:46, I am saying it is based on its usage in a multitude of other Scriptures.
But that's not necessarily true because duration of
aionios depends on what it is referring to.
Except when it doesn't. . .circular.
For example,
it's used to refer to Jonah being inside the whale where it is limited to three days.
Would you please provide the text, where aionios is used of Johan's stay in the whale. . .that I may examine it.
In Matthew 25:46 it is referring to kolasis.

I agree with you that that one of the meanings of kolasis is "restraining". But another
is corrective punishment.
You have no NT basis for that interpretation of Matthew 25:46.
The word is used only twice in the NT, and its use in 1 John 4:18 (Fear has punishment.")
is a "restraining that punishes."
There is no reasonable basis for assuming it means otherwise than its only other NT use of 1 John 4:18.
If it means that here then it must be referring to a finite punishment. It must be finite because, as it is corrective, its intention is to bring the person to salvation. And once the person is saved she no longer has need of such a punishment and so it ends.
Now I'm not a Bible scholar and I don't read ancient Greek. All I know is from the
scholarship of others.
And there are scholars as eminent as they, if not more so, who hold the opposite view.
So much for "scholars."
It's clear to me that the case is not proved conclusively either way
Here's how "proved conclusively" works.
Not all things are proven conclusively, the preponderance of the evidence has to serve in many cases as demonstration of facts.
And in this case, there is no evidence (Bilbical precedent) for interpreting kolasis as
"corrective punishment," while there is evidence (Biblical precedent) for interpreting it as
"restrainment that punishes."
So the preponderance of the evidence serves as reasonable conclusive proof of kolasis to mean
"restrainment that punishes."
That's how authentic scholarship does it.
and we could carry on having this argument until we enter our aiónion life. We can't decide the matter on this one verse alone. We have to look at the rest of the Bible and when I look at passages such as these:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross
Colossians 1:19-20

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18

I believe the idea of eternal punishment in the Matthew verse is absolutely ruled out because it would give the lie to these passages.
If you disagree then kindly explain how the first verse cites above, ”For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.”, is consistent with the idea of eternal punishment?
The same as Romans 5:18-19):
All those of/in (the first) Adam (eternally) die (i.e., separation from God), and
all those of/in (the second Adam) Christ are made (eternally) live.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The following do not need "interpretation" to be doctrine:

"Justification is apart from faith's works" (Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28).

"Salvation is. . .without faith's works" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

". . .whover believes in the Son shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)
etc., etc., etc.


You misunderstand my use of them--not as negating UR, but as demonstration of doctrine not reqjiring "interpretation."

Doctrine is a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, a denomination or from a theological view.
 
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Hmm

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NT Scriptures, please, where aionios is used to mean limited time.

And I have demonstrated that the consistent NT usage of aionios to mean "unending" removes all question as to its usage in Matthew 25:46.
You have presented no demonstration otherwise.

Straw man. . .previously addressed.
Except when it doesn't. . .circular.

Would you please provide the text, where aionios is used of Johan's stay in the whale. . .that I may examine it.
You have no NT basis for that interpretation of Matthew 25:46.
The word is used only twice in the NT, and its use in 1 John 4:18 (Fear has punishment.")
is a "restraining that punishes."
There is no reasonable basis for assuming it means otherwise than its only other NT use of 1 John 4:18.
And there are scholars as eminent as they, if not more so, who hold the opposite view.
So much for "scholars."

Here's how "proved conclusively" works.
Not all things are proven conclusively, the preponderance of the evidence has to serve in many cases as demonstration of facts.
And in this case, there is no evidence (Bilbical precedent) for interpreting kolasis as
"corrective punishment," while there is evidence (Biblical precedent) for interpreting it as
"restrainment that punishes."
So the preponderance of the evidence serves as reasonable conclusive proof of kolasis to mean
"restrainment that punishes."
That's how authentic scholarship does it.

Before I address that, would you mind answering the following question I asked earlier:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

How is this consistent with the idea of eternal punishment?
 
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Clare73

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Before I address that, would you mind answering the following question I asked earlier:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

How is this consistent with the idea of eternal punishment?
I did. . .what happened to the post?

It's the same as Romans 5:18-19.
All those in/of (the first) Adam die, and
all those in/of (the second Adam) Christ are made alive.

How many are in Adam?
How many are in Christ?
The difference in number between the two are those of eternal punishment.

Now NT Scriptures, please, where aionios is used to mean limited time.

(I don't mean to be short with you. . .you are a nice guy.)
 
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Hmm

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How many are in Adam?
How many are in Christ?
The difference in number between the two are those of eternal punishment.

Hold on! Let me quote the verse again so it's easy to refer to:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22

What you're saying is that the "in Adam" and the “in Christ” is limiting the “all" so that it doesn't mean "all" but that isn't right. The verse isn't saying “…so also shall all who are in Christ be made alive.” it's saying …so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” which is a completely different thing.

It means what it says: All shall be made alive in Christ.

Now NT Scriptures, please, where aionios is used to mean limited time.

Okay, here's just one example, but one is as good as a hundred here because it's enough to prove the point.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when these things will be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age (aion)?”
Matthew 24:3​

Here, aion is clearly time a limited duration. It means an ‘age’ which has a beginning and an end and so it can't mean "eternal". The disciples are asking about when Jesus will come again. Note that they understand that when He comes again it will mark the end of this present aion, which is translated here as ‘age’.

(I don't mean to be short with you. . .you are a nice guy.)

No worries. In general, the shorter the posts here the better ( with an exception for your posts of course!)
 
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Clare73

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Hold on! Let me quote the verse again so it's easy to refer to:
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22
What you're saying is that the "in Adam" and the “in Christ” is limiting the “all" so that it doesn't mean "all" but that isn't right. The verse isn't saying “…so also shall all who are in Christ be made alive.” it's saying …so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” which is a completely different thing.
It means what it says: All shall be made alive in Christ.
CONTEXT.

Who are the all that die in Adam?
Who are the all that are made alive in Christ?

Review the the epistles (the context) for the answer.
Okay, here's just one example, but one is as good as a hundred here because it's enough to prove the point.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when these things will be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age (aion)?” Matthew 24:3
Here, aion is clearly time a limited duration. It means an ‘age’
All of this is addressed in post #1120.

I asked for the word aionios, not the word aion.
The word aion is not the word aionios, and does not have the same meaning.
The difference is thoroughly covered in post #1120.
It was aion, rather than aionios, that was used in reference to Jonah, wasn't it?

Your understanding of the matter seems unclear.
Perhaps more homework (background) might be beneficial in dealing in this area.
which has a beginning and an end and so it can't mean "eternal". The disciples are asking about when Jesus will come again. Note that they understand that when He comes again it will mark the end of this present aion, which is translated here as ‘age’.

No worries. In general, the shorter the posts here the better ( with an exception for your posts of course!)
 
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Hmm

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CONTEXT.

Who are the all that die in Adam?
Who are the all that are made alive in Christ?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The "all" who died in Adam are everyone - everyone who has ever lived are sinful. The "all" who are made alive in Christ are the same people: everyone who has ever lived.

The word aion is not the word aionios, and does not have the same meaning.

Aion (age) is a noun and aionios is an adjective (as in punishment for an age)

It was aion, rather than aionios, that was used in reference to Jonah, wasn't it?

Perhaps it depends on which translation you are using, I don't know.

So let's look at the word in Hebrew instead: owlam. This is translated into Greek using aion and aionios and just like these two words, owlam can mean either eternity or a time limited age depending on the context. When it's applied to God it means eternal, when applied to anything else it means age.

The word is used to describe the time Jonah spent in the belly of the whale or fish which was three days so obviously not an eternity, although I'm sure it would have felt like it.

Your understanding of the matter seems unclear.

It's doesn't really matter whether I'm unclear on the matter or not. What is important is the confusion that has been present in the minds of the Bible translators that has lead to the popular but incorrect belief in eternal hell which has caused so much anxiety to individuals and the moral standing of the Christian faith.

Perhaps more homework (background) might be beneficial in dealing in this area

I'm sure it would but time is limited (aion)
 
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Saint Steven

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I am skeptical about whether universalism can be supported Biblically, and while I haven't settled between whether I accept annhilationism or damnationism I can accept either as being possibilities since they seem to actually make sense of the Biblical data.
Annihilation and Damnationism are contradictory to one another. So, even if you choose one, you will be left with the other one in conflict. How will you resolve that issue?
 
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Saint Steven

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The UR position seems to want to impose on God a restriction that rather than upholding true justice turns it into some monstrous thing.
What could be more monstrous than a God who designed and implements ECT?
 
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