When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

CApreacherswife said:

surprised to see so many post tribbers, makes sense though because there will be SOOOOOO many left behind who are not ready or anxiously awaiting His return. Having said that, I believe these people must know in their spirit that they will go through the tribulation and therefore are angry that other's believe they will not. attached are 16 proofs of a pre tribulation rapture pdf

Click to expand...

Thoughts on 16 Proofs

1. 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the general resurrection. We know this because we see the very same language used and the same event spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15. 1 Corinthians 15 has been called the "Great Resurrection Chapter" of the Bible. Thus we know that when Christ returns, there will be a resurrection which will happen in the twinkling of an eye. This resurrection is a change of ages and relationship to God. It is not the final resurrection of the bodies.

1 Corinthians 15: 23 -24 appears to give us the sequence of resurrection. First Christ, then those who are His, then at the end of all things, the general resurrection. Christ has returned, those who were His and were alive at His coming were taken, and we await the final resurrection, which involves the body and the "rest of the dead."

This is some very difficult language and requires close and intense study.

2. Zecharaiah 14: 1-15. My initial thought is that this is speaking of spiritual Jerusalem and the spiritual warfare. I will have to study this more, but this cannot mean national Israel and Jerusalem because the Jews destroyed their covenant with God as the special people of God and they are just another nation among the nations now. The New Jerusalem has come down from heaven. It is the Church and Her gates shall never be shut, meaning that salvation is now open to all forever.

3. (In the Old Testament, two different pictures are painted of the Messiah—one suffering - Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18 - and one reigning as King - Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). Jesus is reigning as King now. He is not waiting to be crowned King, He is the eternal King as God.

4. (Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know.)
Matthew 23 - 25 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. We can see this clearly if we take all three chapters together and don't separate them. Jesus rebukes the Pharisees and then tells them that the blood of all the prophets will come upon "this generation." Not some generation 2,000 years later, but the one standing right there.

When the disciples ask Him in Matthew 24:3 about the end of the age, He tells them about the destruction of Jerusalem, which is "at hand" and "coming quickly." The languge is symbolic and not literal. If you study historical records of the destruction of Jerusalem, you will see how these things came to pass. Anything involving 1,260 days (3.5 years) must have to do with timing involving the destruction of Jersualem.

5. (The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out) This appears to be reading into the text what you want to see. When you own a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail. Likewise, when you believe in a "Rapture of the Church," everything begins to sound like it has something to do with the Rapture. There is no reason to assume that this is some sort of prophecy of the Church being raptured.

6. Same thing. Reading into the text what you wish to see.

7. (After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns - Rev. 4:4-10. We know that Christians will receive their rewards crowns at the Rapture 2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4.) Since Christ returned in AD 70, we must assume that Christ and all the faithful up to that point received their crowns. These verses do not prove a Rapture of the Church yet to take place.

Interestingly enough, there is some speculation that there was a "catching away" which took place before the destruction of Jersualem. The evidence for it is the absence of any Christian writings or literature from 70AD to about 100 AD. I think this worth a bit more study. Perhaps the "Rapture" has indeed already taken place.

8. Interesting thought. Perhaps these are the people who were righteous before the destruction of Jerusalem.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. The rich man in the parable was clothed in fine linen. Was he righteous? I don't think so. Perhaps you are making a bit too much out of the Revelation 19:14.

9. (Kept from the hour of testing - Rev. 3:10.) If John's vision has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem, then this promise is addressed to the saints who are alive at that time. In Rev. 3:10, the Greek word used there is a word that is specific to the Roman empire - οἰκουμένης oikoumenē. It is not cosmos, which would be a more general and all-encompassing word. The trial that was about to come on the Roman empire was the Jewish War against Rome which resulted in the destruction of Jersualem and the deaths of over 1 million Jews trapped inside the city. This could be further proof of a "catching away" which took place before Jerusalem was destroyed.

10. Very interesting. I haven't considered this information, but it appears I am in agreement with you hear (more study needed). Angels called to gather the elect. Hmmmmm.....

OH! I think I found the answer! It has to do with your earlier post about the armies in white linen (isn't Bible study fun!) Look....Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This appears to be taking place in heaven. Seems that this is the gathering together of the armies clothed in white linen who are about to go and take vengeance upon Jerusalem.

11. Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Using agricultural metaphors to describe the events in Matthew 24 and the destruction of Jerusalem. I don't see a separation of time indicated in this verse, only that the first to be gathered are the tares, and then the wheat. I'll have to dig a bit deeper to find time signatures for these events.

12. Ooooooo....this time signature is very interesting. When does the wedding take place? Let's see if Revelation can give me an answer. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Well, all I can find here is that the New Jerusalem, the Church, came down from heaven to earth. Not sure how Luke 12:36 would fit into this, but more study may open the answer for me.

13. I think to use John 14: 2-3 as a proof text for the Rapture is reading into the text. Jesus says He will gather His own to Himself. I could just as easily say that He did this when He took His people away from Jerusalem before it was destroyed. Or it could generically mean that He comes to get His own and take them at death.

14. The one who restrains was taken out of the way. Read a history on the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The Holy Spirit no longer inhabited national Israel, and the things they did show it.

15. Separation of the sheep and goats. I believe this is also about the separation of the faithful Jews of the first century from the unfaithful. I think we see this in Revelation also where there is a separation of the wicked from the righteous. The wicked are sent into the furnace of God's fire, the righteous enter the New Jerusalem.

16. There is no millenium.

Just my thoughts. Interesting questions and some issues worth more thought and study.

Spiritual Jew said:

That's complete nonsense. Don't try to speak for other people. Just speak for yourself. People believe in post-trib because it's taught in scripture and not because they are angry at pre-tribbers.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Click to expand...

v31 is not the rapture. It is the gathering of the children of Israel back to the land of Israel. It is a promise God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

The resurrection of the dead will happen when the Scriptures say it will happen: when Christ returns in glory as judge of the quick and the dead.

St. Paul is clear in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, and that each in its own order: Christ rose as the first of the resurrection, and then at His return all who belong to Christ.

When Christ returns, He returns in judgment. And when He returns the dead shall be raised, even those who are alive at His coming shall share in the glory of the resurrection, which is what the Apostle St. Paul means when he says, "I tell you a mystery, we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. In the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet" and also in his first letter to the Thessalonian:

"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have passed away. For the Lord Himself will descend from the heavens with a commanding shout, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain, will join together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And we shall be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

We are therefore confident that at the conclusion of all things, our Lord shall return, the dead shall rise, God will make all things new, and God shall be all in all.

Rapturism detaches the Christian hope of God's renewal of all things from the future return of the Lord and the consistent working of God in history; by changing the focus from God's saving work for the world to how we can escape the world to a better one.

It was never God's will for man to live anywhere else but here on earth. Because God created the universe, and God created man as part of that universe, to be the image-bearing creation of God in creation. To be a kingdom of priests. That is our human vocation, ruined in Adam, and restored--and glorified--in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Spiritual Jew said:

That's complete nonsense. Don't try to speak for other people. Just speak for yourself. People believe in post-trib because it's taught in scripture and not because they are angry at pre-tribbers.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Click to expand...

John 14 said Jesus would come personally to RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF SO THAT WHERE I AM YOU WILL BE ALSO, this is BEFORE the angels are sent to gather the elect who came to repentance during the tribulation and survived they are gathered along with the goats for judgement in the valley of Jehosaphat Matthew 25

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...99f91b/documents/Rapture_vs_Second_Coming.pdf

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...ments/Questions_About_a_Post-Trib_Rapture.pdf

Light of the East said:

Thoughts on 16 Proofs

1. 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the general resurrection. We know this because we see the very same language used and the same event spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15. 1 Corinthians 15 has been called the "Great Resurrection Chapter" of the Bible. Thus we know that when Christ returns, there will be a resurrection which will happen in the twinkling of an eye. This resurrection is a change of ages and relationship to God. It is not the final resurrection of the bodies.

1 Corinthians 15: 23 -24 appears to give us the sequence of resurrection. First Christ, then those who are His, then at the end of all things, the general resurrection. Christ has returned, those who were His and were alive at His coming were taken, and we await the final resurrection, which involves the body and the "rest of the dead."

This is some very difficult language and requires close and intense study.

2. Zecharaiah 14: 1-15. My initial thought is that this is speaking of spiritual Jerusalem and the spiritual warfare. I will have to study this more, but this cannot mean national Israel and Jerusalem because the Jews destroyed their covenant with God as the special people of God and they are just another nation among the nations now. The New Jerusalem has come down from heaven. It is the Church and Her gates shall never be shut, meaning that salvation is now open to all forever.

3. (In the Old Testament, two different pictures are painted of the Messiah—one suffering - Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18 - and one reigning as King - Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). Jesus is reigning as King now. He is not waiting to be crowned King, He is the eternal King as God.

4. (Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know.)
Matthew 23 - 25 is about the destruction of Jerusalem. We can see this clearly if we take all three chapters together and don't separate them. Jesus rebukes the Pharisees and then tells them that the blood of all the prophets will come upon "this generation." Not some generation 2,000 years later, but the one standing right there.

When the disciples ask Him in Matthew 24:3 about the end of the age, He tells them about the destruction of Jerusalem, which is "at hand" and "coming quickly." The languge is symbolic and not literal. If you study historical records of the destruction of Jerusalem, you will see how these things came to pass. Anything involving 1,260 days (3.5 years) must have to do with timing involving the destruction of Jersualem.

5. (The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the Rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out) This appears to be reading into the text what you want to see. When you own a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail. Likewise, when you believe in a "Rapture of the Church," everything begins to sound like it has something to do with the Rapture. There is no reason to assume that this is some sort of prophecy of the Church being raptured.

6. Same thing. Reading into the text what you wish to see.

7. (After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns - Rev. 4:4-10. We know that Christians will receive their rewards crowns at the Rapture 2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4.) Since Christ returned in AD 70, we must assume that Christ and all the faithful up to that point received their crowns. These verses do not prove a Rapture of the Church yet to take place.

Interestingly enough, there is some speculation that there was a "catching away" which took place before the destruction of Jersualem. The evidence for it is the absence of any Christian writings or literature from 70AD to about 100 AD. I think this worth a bit more study. Perhaps the "Rapture" has indeed already taken place.

8. Interesting thought. Perhaps these are the people who were righteous before the destruction of Jerusalem.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. The rich man in the parable was clothed in fine linen. Was he righteous? I don't think so. Perhaps you are making a bit too much out of the Revelation 19:14.

9. (Kept from the hour of testing - Rev. 3:10.) If John's vision has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem, then this promise is addressed to the saints who are alive at that time. In Rev. 3:10, the Greek word used there is a word that is specific to the Roman empire - οἰκουμένης oikoumenē. It is not cosmos, which would be a more general and all-encompassing word. The trial that was about to come on the Roman empire was the Jewish War against Rome which resulted in the destruction of Jersualem and the deaths of over 1 million Jews trapped inside the city. This could be further proof of a "catching away" which took place before Jerusalem was destroyed.

10. Very interesting. I haven't considered this information, but it appears I am in agreement with you hear (more study needed). Angels called to gather the elect. Hmmmmm.....

OH! I think I found the answer! It has to do with your earlier post about the armies in white linen (isn't Bible study fun!) Look....Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This appears to be taking place in heaven. Seems that this is the gathering together of the armies clothed in white linen who are about to go and take vengeance upon Jerusalem.

11. Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Using agricultural metaphors to describe the events in Matthew 24 and the destruction of Jerusalem. I don't see a separation of time indicated in this verse, only that the first to be gathered are the tares, and then the wheat. I'll have to dig a bit deeper to find time signatures for these events.

12. Ooooooo....this time signature is very interesting. When does the wedding take place? Let's see if Revelation can give me an answer. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Well, all I can find here is that the New Jerusalem, the Church, came down from heaven to earth. Not sure how Luke 12:36 would fit into this, but more study may open the answer for me.

13. I think to use John 14: 2-3 as a proof text for the Rapture is reading into the text. Jesus says He will gather His own to Himself. I could just as easily say that He did this when He took His people away from Jerusalem before it was destroyed. Or it could generically mean that He comes to get His own and take them at death.

14. The one who restrains was taken out of the way. Read a history on the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The Holy Spirit no longer inhabited national Israel, and the things they did show it.

15. Separation of the sheep and goats. I believe this is also about the separation of the faithful Jews of the first century from the unfaithful. I think we see this in Revelation also where there is a separation of the wicked from the righteous. The wicked are sent into the furnace of God's fire, the righteous enter the New Jerusalem.

16. There is no millenium.

Just my thoughts. Interesting questions and some issues worth more thought and study.

Click to expand...

Didn't go through all this because what link I shared explains for itself with bible verses. Just wanted to say the New Jerusalem comes down AT THE END of the Millennial reign after Satan is loosed for a short while, deceives the nations once again and armies AS THE SAND OF THE SEA come against Jerusalem with the people who are alive at the END of the 1000 year reign who are deceived, Gog of magog (a principality of the north) will come against Jesus and His saints and Jesus destroys them all with fire from heaven, after that Satan is thrown in the lake of fire and the white throne judgement takes place with the last resurrection of all who will face judgement who ever lived (and the sea gave up the dead, and hades gave up the dead etc.) THEN after the white throne judgement we, along with the people who passed the judgement of their works will go into the New Jerusalem and enter eternity. The raptured saints are judged at the BEMA seat judgement of Christ at the rapture where He gives us rewards/crowns according to what we did for Christ. He comes WITH His reward and takes us to the bridegroom's chambers the place He prepared for us in His Father's house. At the second coming He comes with ten thousands of His saints,(He only battles with 10,000's (JUDE 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints2.
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them.) He will bring the rest of us at the end of the war of Armageddon (women, children etc). and takes 75 days to set up His kingdom and judge the sheep vs the goats (all survivors)and remove those who took the mark and survived. HOW in the world can you say there is no millennium? millennium means 1000 years

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw ethrones, and they sat on them, and fjudgment was committed to them. Then I saw gthe souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, hwho had not worshiped the beast ior his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they jlived and kreigned with Christ for 1a thousand years. lthe second death has no power, but they shall be mpriests of God and of Christ, nand shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The Defeat of Satan
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to
deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the EARTH, pGog and Magog, qto gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. rThey went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city (JERUSALEM). And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Those dead in Christ who were resurrected at the rapture and the raptured saints are NOT present at the white throne judgement.

ViaCrucis said:

The resurrection of the dead will happen when the Scriptures say it will happen: when Christ returns in glory as judge of the quick and the dead.

St. Paul is clear in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, and that each in its own order: Christ rose as the first of the resurrection, and then at His return all who belong to Christ.

When Christ returns, He returns in judgment. And when He returns the dead shall be raised, even those who are alive at His coming shall share in the glory of the resurrection, which is what the Apostle St. Paul means when he says, "I tell you a mystery, we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. In the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet" and also in his first letter to the Thessalonian:

"For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have passed away. For the Lord Himself will descend from the heavens with a commanding shout, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain, will join together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And we shall be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

We are therefore confident that at the conclusion of all things, our Lord shall return, the dead shall rise, God will make all things new, and God shall be all in all.

Rapturism detaches the Christian hope of God's renewal of all things from the future return of the Lord and the consistent working of God in history; by changing the focus from God's saving work for the world to how we can escape the world to a better one.

It was never God's will for man to live anywhere else but here on earth. Because God created the universe, and God created man as part of that universe, to be the image-bearing creation of God in creation. To be a kingdom of priests. That is our human vocation, ruined in Adam, and restored--and glorified--in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

There is a BEMA SEAT judgement and after the 1000 years a WHITE THRONE judgement, at His second coming He will separate the sheep and the goats and judge them for how they treated the Jews during the tribulation. Jesus said He would not drink of the fruit of the vine till He would drink with us in His kingdom, He tells Pontius Pilot His kingdom was not of this earth. In John 14 He said He goes to prepare a place for us IN HIS FATHERS HOUSE are many mansions that where I am you will be also, this is also where the marriage supper of the lamb will be BEFORE He returns at the second coming. You forgot to quote 1 Thes. 18 "wherefore COMFORT one another with these words" and where Paul says to "pray constantly to be made worthy to escape the wrath that is to come and stand before the Son of Man" what comfort would we get from going through the tribulation and most of us dying by war, famine, pestilences, natural disasters and beheading, only to be gathered for judgement when it's all over? Also the dead in Christ are IN HEAVEN presently IN HIS KINGDOM they are present with the Lord and coming with Him in the clouds and are going to be resurrected first then we will be changed into glorified bodies (we meet them in the air) Jesus said as in the days of Noah and Lot, Enoch was caught up BEFORE the flood came, and Lot and His family escaped the destruction that came upon Sodom.
God has not appointed us to His wrath

2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-9
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. ..

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly!

Only two of the seven churches in Revelation, which represent the 7 church ages and are relevant to the churches of today. Only two are worthy to escape the wrath that is to come. MANY will be left behind and go through the tribulation, in which they are addressed by Jesus to Stand firm till the end and they shall be saved, to call upon the name of Jesus and they shall be saved, this means they will make it to heaven when they die or survive the tribulation. It takes overcomers and those who abide in Christ, the faithful in Christ to be raptured and partake in the wedding feast as the bride.



The rapture is for overcomers who abide in Christ and are faithful to Him and obey His commands

The Tribulation is A FULL SEVEN YEARS of GOD's WRATH UPON the earth for unrepentant sinners
and a trial for the children of Israel and the unfaithful servants of Christ.

1/4 and 1/3 of all mankind will die during the tribulation that is not what God has planned for His
Bride, BUT many, an INUMMERABLE amount will wash their robes in the blood of the lamb and make it to heaven after dying during the tribulation and are seen in heaven, not to mention the martyrs under God's altar till the end.

Only the 144,000 Jews of the 12 tribes of Israel will be protected by God's seal and be kept alive till He returns they are among the ones who will repopulate the earth, along with survivors who did not worship the beast of take his mark.

There are TWO appearings of Jesus one in the air and one where His feet touch the mount of Olives, the rapture and the second coming, a few resurrections, the 2 witnesses are resurrected and caught up, the dead in Christ at the rapture in the air the rapture saints are changed into the same glorified bodies, and at the end of the 1000 year reign all who died NOT in Christ will be judged at the white throne judgement.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...99f91b/documents/Rapture_vs_Second_Coming.pdf

Douggg said:

v31 is not the rapture. It is the gathering of the children of Israel back to the land of Israel.

Click to expand...

No, it's the rapture. Jesus will not be descending from heaven more than once in the future, which is the reason why He is only shown descending from heaven once in the Olivet Discourse and in the book of Revelation.

Just like 1 Thess 4:14-17, the Olivet Discourse refers to a gathering of believers from heaven and earth. It's a good idea to not always rely on Matthew 24 alone for understanding of the Olivet Discourse. You should read the Mark 13 and Luke 21 accounts, also.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Compare the above to:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It's not even reasonable to think these aren't speaking of the same event. In both passages it speaks of the coming of Christ from heaven. In both passages it speaks of believers being gathered together. Both passages speak of believers being gathered both from heaven (souls of the dead in Christ) and from earth. And, again, scripture only speaks of Jesus descending from heaven once in scripture, so that shows that these are speaking of the same event as well.

CApreacherswife said:

John 14 said Jesus would come personally to RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF SO THAT WHERE I AM YOU WILL BE ALSO, this is BEFORE the angels are sent to gather the elect who came to repentance during the tribulation and survived they are gathered along with the goats for judgement in the valley of Jehosaphat Matthew 25

Click to expand...

How are you concluding that the John 14 verse occurs before the angels are sent to gather the elect?

You have Jesus descending from heaven twice in the future. Why would that not be recorded in the Olivet Discourse or in the book of Revelation if that was going to happen?

Jeffwhosoever said:

It is possible to be this order
1. Rapture - Jesus calls the dead in Christ to rise and then those who are alive and redeemed to meet him in the upper atmosphere or some level of heaven as a thief in the night and the rest of the world is left behind to wonder where we all went.

Click to expand...

Where is this scenario described in scripture? Where in scripture is the description of the world wondering where we went? Where is the description of the utter chaos and destruction that would result from millions of people suddenly disappearing from the earth?

People aren't going to be standing there wondering where we went. Unbelievers are going to be destroyed on that day.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you not see 2 Thess 1:10 as referring to what happens when the rapture occurs? When else would He come to be glorified in His saints except when He comes to meet us "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). But, what will also happen that day is not that everyone else will stand around wondering what just happened. Instead, it says Christ will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

This same thing can be seen in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6. Those verses are all speaking of the same event, the day Christ returns. There were no chapter breaks in the original manuscripts, so having a chapter break after 1 Thess 4:18 should not be taken to mean that Paul changed the subject in 1 Thess 5:1. Instead, he was contrasting what will happen to unbelievers when Christ comes compared to believers. In the case of unbelievers on the day He returns, "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3).

2. Start of tribulation - peace treaty with Israel - Antichrist - 3.5 years - first 1/2 of Daniel's 70th week
3. Mid trib - Starts with the breaking of seals in Revelation 6 - and begins the great tribulation
4. Another 3.5 years of 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls of wrath - 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week.
5. End of great tribulation & tribulation & Daniel's 70th week - Jesus comes all the way to the ground as visible to the entire planet to end the tribulation, lock of Satan for 1000 years, and return with all of us who were awaiting His second coming already dead or raptured out along with those saved during the 7 years including the 144,000 Israelis.

Click to expand...

In Daniel 9:24, six things are listed that would be fulfilled by the end of the 70th week.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Which of these things do you believe is not yet fulfilled and how exactly do you believe those things will be fulfilled? Since you obviously think the 70th week will occur in the future, this is a question you should be able to answer.

Spiritual Jew said:

How are you concluding that the John 14 verse occurs before the angels are sent to gather the elect?

You have Jesus descending from heaven twice in the future. Why would that not be recorded in the Olivet Discourse or in the book of Revelation if that was going to happen?

Click to expand...

because the angels gather the elect at the end of the tribulation, Jesus gathers true believers to the place He prepared in heaven for us that where He may be we will be there also, Jesus is in heaven opening the seals of the scroll which starts at the beginning of the tribulation. One needs only to look at His parables the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the wedding feast, the parable of the goodman of the house, who would not have let his house be broken up if he KNEW the time of his master's coming.
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” Matthew 24:40-41
24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

At the second coming we know exactly to the day Jesus will return, it is 1260 days from the abomination of desolation when the AC stands in the Holy place and declares himself god. the rapture and the second coming are clearly two separate events. The tribulation (Daniel's 70th week) is the time of Jacob's trouble it is not for His bride, the true believers.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.clov...99f91b/documents/Rapture_vs_Second_Coming.pdf

I have already addressed this - why can God not rapture us before during and after the tribulation?

CApreacherswife said:

because the angels gather the elect at the end of the tribulation, Jesus gathers true believers to the place He prepared in heaven for us that where He may be we will be there also

Click to expand...

It doesn't say He prepared a place in heaven for us as if we need to go to heaven at the rapture in order to be where He is. We will meet Him "in the air", so we clearly don't need to be in heaven in order to be where He is.

Jesus is in heaven opening the seals of the scroll which starts at the beginning of the tribulation. One needs only to look at His parables the parable of the ten virgins, the parable of the wedding feast, the parable of the goodman of the house, who would not have let his house be broken up if he KNEW the time of his master's coming.
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” Matthew 24:40-41
24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

At the second coming we know exactly to the day Jesus will return, it is 1260 days from the abomination of desolation when the AC stands in the Holy place and declares himself god. the rapture and the second coming are clearly two separate events. The tribulation (Daniel's 70th week) is the time of Jacob's trouble it is not for His bride, the true believers.

Click to expand...

It seems that you missed my point. There is only one future coming of Christ mentioned in the Olivet Discourse and it is said to occur "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31).

Why are you trying to say that the coming of Christ referenced in Matthew 24:40-44 is some other event than the coming of Christ in Matthew 24:29-31? There is no basis for that claim whatsoever. If there was a pre-trib rapture then it would be mentioned in the Olivet Discourse BEFORE His coming "after the tribulation of those days", but it's not. The gathering of the elect is a reference to the rapture.

And, again, the book of Revelation also only speaks of Christ descending from heaven once. If there was going to be a pre-trib rapture then why is that not mentioned in the book of Revelation? Surely, it would be mentioned there if such a thing was going to happen. But, it's not.

2 Thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When do you believe the above verse will be fulfilled? Pre-trib or post-trib?

Spiritual Jew said:

You have Jesus descending from heaven twice in the future. Why would that not be recorded in the Olivet Discourse or in the book of Revelation if that was going to happen?

Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, did you believe Jesus descended from heaven, to appear to Paul, in Acts 9?

Paul claimed he saw the resurrected Christ after he was saved. (1 Corinthians 9:1). Without Jesus descending from heaven, could that have happened?

Guojing said:

Out of curiosity, did you believe Jesus descended from heaven, to appear to Paul, in Acts 9?

Paul claimed he saw the resurrected Christ after he was saved. (1 Corinthians 9:1). Without Jesus descending from heaven, could that have happened?

Click to expand...

Are you trying to divert attention away from the point I was making? What happened to Paul has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that the prophecies relating to the future coming of Christ only refer to Him descending from heaven once.

Do you have any response to the question I asked in my post, which was why is there only one reference to Him descending from heaven in both the Olivet Discourse and in the book of Revelation if He was actually going to descend twice from heaven in the future as it relates to fulfilling end times prophecy (what happened with Paul has nothing to do with that)?

Spiritual Jew said:

Are you trying to divert attention away from the point I was making? What happened to Paul has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that the prophecies relating to the future coming of Christ only refer to Him descending from heaven once.

Do you have any response to the question I asked in my post, which was why is there only one reference to Him descending from heaven in both the Olivet Discourse and in the book of Revelation if He was actually going to descend twice from heaven in the future as it relates to fulfilling end times prophecy (what happened with Paul has nothing to do with that)?

Click to expand...

I was asking a question whether you believe Jesus descended from heavens to save Paul in Acts 9.

A simple yes or no question to you, but if you don't wish to answer, that is your choice.

But I can understand why you decline to answer that, because that would be an answer to your question about whether Jesus will actually descend more than once after the Olivet Discourse.

Guojing said:

I was asking a question whether you believe Jesus descended from heavens to save Paul in Acts 9.

A simple yes or no question to you, but if you don't wish to answer, that is your choice.

Click to expand...

I have no problem answering that question, but it has nothing to do with the point I was making. That's why I think you are purposely trying to divert attention away from my point because you have no answer for it. Yes, for Jesus to have appeared to Paul He would have descended from heaven. This proves nothing in relation to the point I made and you know it.

But I can understand why you decline to answer that, because that would be an answer to your question about whether Jesus will actually descend more than once after the Olivet Discourse.

Click to expand...

How does that answer my question, keeping in mind that what happened to Paul happened long ago and not in the future?

I'm talking about your belief that Jesus will descend from heaven twice in the future. Why does the Olivet Discourse only mention Him descending from heaven once in the future (Matt 24:29-31) if He's going to descend from heaven twice in the future? Are you willing to answer that or are you just going to try something else to avoid answering the question?

Spiritual Jew said:

I have no problem answering that question, but it has nothing to do with the point I was making. That's why I think you are purposely trying to divert attention away from my point because you have no answer for it. Yes, for Jesus to have appeared to Paul He would have descended from heaven. This proves nothing in relation to the point I made and you know it.

How does that answer my question, keeping in mind that what happened to Paul happened long ago and not in the future?

I'm talking about your belief that Jesus will descend from heaven twice in the future. Why does the Olivet Discourse only mention Him descending from heaven once in the future (Matt 24:29-31) if He's going to descend from heaven twice in the future? Are you willing to answer that or are you just going to try something else to avoid answering the question?

Click to expand...

Since you believed Jesus did descend from heaven to save Paul, that means he has already descended once after he made the Olivet Discourse, an action by Christ that was unannounced and unaccounted for in OT prophecy, nor did Jesus mentioned he would do that in the Discourse.

If that is the case, why are you so insistent that Jesus won't come down again to meet the Body of Christ in the air for the rapture? The rapture of the Body of Christ was a mystery that was hidden in God until the apostle Paul.

So if the salvation of Paul was a mystery in the OT, there is no reason why Jesus cannot come down twice in the future, once for the BOC, the other for Israel.

That is my point to you

Guojing said:

Since you believed Jesus did descend from heaven to save Paul, that means he has already descended once after he made the Olivet Discourse, an action by Christ that was unannounced and unaccounted for in OT prophecy, nor did Jesus mentioned he would do that in the Discourse.

Click to expand...

So? That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. None. You are completely missing my point. Is it on purpose or are you playing a game?

The point is, why would such a significant event as a pre-trib rapture not be mentioned in the Olivet Discourse? Does that make any sense to you? It certainly makes no sense to me. It has all those other details, but nothing about a pre-trib rapture? Why not? There would be no reason to leave that out. It does mention a post-trib gathering of the elect. It should be obvious that He was talking about the rapture there.

If that is the case, why are you so insistent that Jesus won't come down again to meet the Body of Christ in the air for the rapture? The rapture of the Body of Christ was a mystery that was hidden in God until the apostle Paul.

Click to expand...

No, it wasn't. Jesus already mentioned the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31. The mystery that Paul talked about is that we will all be changed to have immortal bodies. Being gathered to Christ was not the mystery.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Can you see here that the mystery Paul talked about was our bodies being changed at the last trumpet to be incorruptible and immortal? He said nothing about us being gathered to Christ at His coming as being a mystery.

A pre-trib rapture is also never mentioned in the book of Revelation. What excuse are you going to come up with for that? You can't try to say it was a mystery when the book of Revelation was written.

So if the salvation of Paul was a mystery in the OT, there is no reason why Jesus cannot come down twice in the future, once for the BOC, the other for Israel.

That is my point to you

Click to expand...

And your point is completely invalid.