John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

Hammster said:

I guess you can’t rely on Jesus to save you.

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Of course I can rely on him. But if I walk away, I can't rely on that I will be brought back. I don't think you as a born again believer just fall out his hands.

Does the scripture teach perserverance of the saints? I will post a video if you got time, 17 minutes.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

Yes sheep believe...

Sheep do sheepish things
Doing sheepish things do not make you a sheep.


A Duck that barks like a dog does not become a dog.

In Him,

Bill

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That's not really an argument.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Zoidar

The Shepard would seek you down it you become lost.. it is He alone that is responsible for His sheep, he lays down his life for them.

Remember you have a great Shepard.

Sheep will not walk away from their Shepard it is not in their nature. You have a better shot at getting a Lion to eat hay.

Edit to add:

Sheep will wonder... but the staff has a Hook for a reason called a bit of an gentle reminder.

in Him,

Bill

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I posted this video for Hammster. I'll post it to you as well.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, Zoidar

Not meant to be an argument... there (IMHO) is nothing to argue in what I said.

Unless if course you think a barking duck is a dog.

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Believers or unbelievers are neither ducks, sheep or dogs. So it's not useful to say an animal can't become another animal to show salvation can't be lost. That is why it's not an argument.

We got frogs that can change gender, back and forward. Does that prove we can lose salvation, regain it, lose it again? Hardly!

Hammster said:

Since you’ve taken both passages and added and twisted things to fit your viewpoint, I don’t really see a need to continue.

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A wise man receives instruction with joy and a fool despises correction. Let's be forthright with one another here. There is no mention of God's wrath in Isaiah 53. You said the bruising is God's wrath, only because scripture says it pleased God to do it. This implies that you think the scripture is saying that God gets pleasure from watching Jesus suffer a torturous death as he suffers God's wrath.

Wherefore I offered another interpretation, that God is pleased to bruise Jesus because God will see His offspring if He makes himself an offering for sin. It actually says that.

But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,

The term wrath is not mentioned anywhere in Isaiah 53 but the sentiment of self sacrifice is.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Then you surmise that God crucified his son in His wrath because scripture says, this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

But the scripture you post above is incriminating in that Paul said, 'You' nailed him to a cross not 'God' nailed him to a cross.

I pointed out that this interpretation of the crucifixion being God's wrath is in error because of what Jesus said about the husbandmen left in charge of God's vineyard:
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Your interpretation: The husbandmen crucified the son so as to carry out God's wrath.
But what does Jesus say? Jesus is seen clearly saying that God had sent His son graciously expecting the husbandmen to reverence him.

Hammster said:

So if you walk away, Jesus, the Good Shepherd, might not find you? That’s really not a description of a Good Shepherd.

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Maybe that is taking the analogy to far?

The story of the prodigal son is another analogy, that gives another perspective.

Hammster said:

But scripture does say that we are either sheep or goats, and never says that one can become the other.

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Is the purpose of those places in scripture to show whether a sheep can or cannot become a goat, or a goat a sheep, or is the purpose of those instances in scripture something else altogether?

Hammster said:

What perspective is that?

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Well, it doesn't say the father went out looking for his son. It was the son that came to his senses to go back home. I'd say that is another perspective.

Hammster said:

It appears that the purpose is to show that some are sheep and some are goats. And that the sheep have a Shepherd.

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I'll tell you what I see. That those who decide to believe Jesus is the Messiah are his sheep. Those who deny him are the goats. The purpose is not to describe that a sheep is always a sheep or a goat always a goat.

Hammster said:

Did the son ever stop being a son? Or did he just miss out on his privileges?

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He was a son, but a dead son.