John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

childeye 2 said:
He didn't turn into sin. He was a sinless sacrifice who submitted to the accusation that he was a sinner deserving of death when he submitted to the cross, which is why death had no power over him through the law, which is why he is the resurrection, which is how he destroys the works of Satan who had the power of death. Jesus now has the keys to hell and death.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Good Day,Childeye

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

He was as you suggested sinless... but was made sin for our sake.

In Him,

Bill

childeye 2 · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
No it’s not.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

God uses godless men to fulfill His plan.

Of course, but His plan is not to take out His wrath on Jesus and teach the world how viscously cruel He is through sending godless men who are obviously not led by God since they are godless. God did not crucify the Christ. Acts 2:22-36

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Above the crucifiers are pricked in their heart which means they know THEY did WRONG.

John Mullally · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
It’s interesting that the choices Joshua gave them to follow were false gods.

Selective reading? Didn't you see that Joshua starts off by exhorting them to serve the Lord and finishes by saying he and his house will serve the Lord.

Reminds me of a portion of a Bob Dillon song when he was a Christian:

You may serve the devil or you may serve the Lord, but you know you got to serve somebody.

childeye 2 · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Childeye

2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

He was as you suggested sinless... but was made sin for our sake.

In Him,

Bill

It's not a good day for me Bill. I see people calling God the crucifier of His son because they think God turned Jesus into sin and then stripped him naked, beat, scorned, mocked, flogged, spit on him and nailed him to a cross to watch him die an agonizing death for God's personal satisfaction.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

childeye 2 said:
It's not a good day for me Bill. I see people calling God the crucifier of His son because they think God turned Jesus into sin and then stripped him naked, beat, scorned, mocked, flogged, and nailed him to a cross to watch him die an agonizing death unto His personal satisfaction.

19 God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Good Day, Childeye

I know the Scripture hits hard sharper than any 2 edged sword...

Does not change the fact that he was made sin for us.... 2 Co 5:21

1 Pe 2:21For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Consider Isa 53:10

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

In Him,

childeye 2 · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Childeye

I know the Scripture hits hard sharper than any 2 edged sword...

Does not change the fact that he was made sin for us.... 2 Co 5:21

1 Pe 2:21For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Consider Isa 53:10

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

In Him,

The scripture is not saying God was pleased to see him suffer God's wrath on the cross. It says God was pleased that he made himself a guilt offering so as to justify the sinner and remove guilt.

His offspring are the children of God who justify the sacrifice of Jesus by carrying their own cross and forgiving those who crucify them through the Spirit of Christ. Such is the body of Christ in the world.

His stripes heal us because he's willing to suffer the sins of others upon himself and forgives. When we revile and return evil for evil we compound evil, when we turn the other cheek and return good for evil, evil is diminished in the world, and the good pleasure of the Lord prospers in His hand.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

childeye 2 said:
Of course, but His plan is not to take out His wrath on Jesus and teach the world how viscously cruel He is through sending godless men who are obviously not led by God since they are godless. God did not crucify the Christ. Acts 2:22-36

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Above the crucifiers are pricked in their heart which means they know THEY did WRONG.

I don’t recall ever saying anything about God being viciously cruel. And yes, He did crucify His Son through godless men. Once again:

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

Also

But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
— Isaiah 53:10

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
Selective reading? Didn't you see that Joshua starts off by exhorting them to serve the Lord and finishes by saying he and his house will serve the Lord.

Reminds me of a portion of a Bob Dillon song when he was a Christian:

You may serve the devil or you may serve the Lord, but you know you got to serve somebody.

He never said to choose to follow God. He said that if they didn’t, they should choose what false God to follow.

childeye 2 · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
I don’t recall ever saying anything about God being viciously cruel. And yes, He did crucify His Son through godless men. Once again:

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. You and all like you are teaching that God is a cruel vindictive person.
— Acts 2:22-23

The predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God is not to show His wrath in a viscously cruel exhibition of payback on the cross.

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
— Isaiah 53:10

The scripture is not saying God was pleased to see him suffer His wrath on the cross. It says God was pleased to let Satan bruise him if he made himself a guilt offering so as to justify the sinner and remove guilt, particular to knowing His son's Love will suffer the sin of crucifying the innocent and yet still forgive. The justification being seen when Jesus prays to God saying, "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". The term crush is the same term used when God allowed Satan to test Jobs integrity. We're not seeing God's righteousness in the form of wrath, we're seeing His righteousness in the form of forbearance.

5 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

His offspring are the children of God who justify the sacrifice of Jesus by carrying their own cross and forgiving those who crucify them through the Spirit of Christ. Such is the body of Christ in the world. This is seen when Stephen before being stoned to death by Saul, prays to God to not hold the charge of murder against Saul and these who will cast the stones.

His stripes heal us because he's willing to suffer the sins of others upon himself and forgives. When we revile and return evil for evil, we compound evil. When we condemn others we condemn ourselves. When we turn the other cheek, forgive and return good for evil, evil is diminished in the world, and the good pleasure of the Lord prospers in His hand.

zoidar · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
Without faith, you cannot please God. And you cannot please God in the flesh. So you heard the word, were regenerated (made alive, no longer in the flesh) and then you saw your state, you repented and were justified.

I know this is your theology, and that's fine with me. The important thing is that we are born again, not exactly how it happens. Maybe we have come to the end of this discussion? At least I have said what I wanted to say. Something you want to add?

zoidar · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, John

Not every one can hear:

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.

Only those who are "of" God hear... His sheep, the ones given to Him by the Father.

You are unable to choose that which you cannot (lack the ability) to do...

In Him,

Bill

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
— Matthew 18:12-14

Hm, seems to me not all sheep are found.

John Mullally · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
He never said to choose to follow God. He said that if they didn’t, they should choose what false God to follow.

Joshua exhorts the Israelites to follow the Lord in the first of the 2 verses I quoted earlier. Obeying Joshua 24:14 is choosing the Lord. Maybe you don't see it because Reformists don't believe in free will (Total Depravity).

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

zoidar said:
“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
— Matthew 18:12-14

Hm, seems to me not all sheep are found.

Good Day, Zoidar

That would make the great Shepard not very effective... He seeks his sheep and he finds them in that he is unable to fail.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

In Him,

Bill

zoidar · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Zoidar

That would make the great Shepard not very effective... He seeks his sheep and he finds them in that he is unable to fail.

In Him,

Bill

Why then the "if" ?

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

zoidar said:
Why then the "if" ?

It is a comparative story... earthly shepherd, vs Great Shepard he calls the sheep come. The Sheep know they are always dependent on the shepherd for everything.

In Him,

Bill

zoidar · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
It is a comparative story... earthly shepherd, vs Great Shepard he calls the sheep come. The Sheep know they are always dependent on the shepherd for everything.

In Him,

Bill

Sure it's an earthly story, true. For som reason Jesus says "if". He could have said the shepherd always finds his sheep, but I guess Jesus' point is not whether the shepherd finds all sheep or not, but how great the joy is when he finds a lost sheep.

zoidar · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Zoidar

That would make the great Shepard not very effective... He seeks his sheep and he finds them in that he is unable to fail.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

In Him,

Bill

I think his sheep are believers. Unbelievers don't know Jesus, and don't follow him, yet.

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
— John 10:14

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

childeye 2 said:
The predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God is not to show His wrath in a viscously cruel exhibition of payback on the cross.

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The scripture is not saying God was pleased to see him suffer His wrath on the cross. It says God was pleased to let Satan bruise him if he made himself a guilt offering so as to justify the sinner and remove guilt, particular to knowing His son's Love will suffer the sin of crucifying the innocent and yet still forgive. The justification being seen when Jesus prays to God saying, "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". The term crush is the same term used when God allowed Satan to test Jobs integrity.

5 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

His offspring are the children of God who justify the sacrifice of Jesus by carrying their own cross and forgiving those who crucify them through the Spirit of Christ. Such is the body of Christ in the world. This is seen when Stephen before being stoned to death by Saul, prays to God to not hold the charge of murder against Saul and these who will cast the stones.

His stripes heal us because he's willing to suffer the sins of others upon himself and forgives. When we revile and return evil for evil, we compound evil. When we condemn others we condemn ourselves. When we turn the other cheek, forgive and return good for evil, evil is diminished in the world, and the good pleasure of the Lord prospers in His hand.

Since you’ve taken both passages and added and twisted things to fit your viewpoint, I don’t really see a need to continue.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

zoidar said:
“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
— Matthew 18:12-14

Hm, seems to me not all sheep are found.

I guess you can’t rely on Jesus to save you.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
Joshua exhorts the Israelites to follow the Lord in the first of the 2 verses I quoted earlier. Obeying Joshua 24:14 is choosing the Lord. Maybe you don't see it because Reformists don't believe in free will (Total Depravity).

I choose things every day.

John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

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Psalm 144:1

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Psalm 144:1

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