John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

John Mullally · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
The problem I see with your arguments in general is that you ignore context so often. In this case, you act as if this verse just stands by itself. You ignore the previous verses which, if you looked at the context starting in v 20, would show you that “all men” meant not just the Jews.

Your problem is that you interpret scripture according to your Reformist presuppositions to such a degree as you read things into the text that are not there.

In this case, Jesus never addressed the Greeks - He said in other places in the Gospel books that He was sent to the Jews.

We see God drawing all men to Jesus in this day. Preaching the Gospel, which is commanded to go forth to all men (not all types of men), in conjunction with the work of the Holy Spirit is an act of drawing all people to Christ. Not everyone responds positively according to John 3:18, the parable of the sower, and the parable of the Wedding Feast.

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
It is easy enough to find scholars that agree with me on 1 Timothy 2. If some translators had agreed with this "all types" assertion, we would see it.

1 Timothy 2 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

Good day, John

I never suggested that everyone agrees.... I was just offering you a look at another point of view from a NT Greek scholar.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

zoidar said:
You explain exactly how it was for me. I got convicted. In despair over that I was going to miss out of heaven I turned to God, if by any chance He would forgive me. And He showed me mercy and I was forgiven/regenerated/born again/saved. At the very moment I was forgiven, I knew I had been saved, and I got full of love for Christ.

Without faith, you cannot please God. And you cannot please God in the flesh. So you heard the word, were regenerated (made alive, no longer in the flesh) and then you saw your state, you repented and were justified.

childeye 2 · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
It was God’s plan to crucify His Son. He was pleased to crush Him. Christ was made sin for us. God hate sin. Thus, His wrath fell on His Son on our behalf.

It was God's plan to destroy the works of Satan by allowing the spirit of Satan to crucify His son according to the law, knowing that His son being unjustly killed would through death take the keys of hell and death away from Satan, who had the power of death through condemnation under the law. But Jesus condemned sin in the flesh when he prayed for his crucifiers, justifying them saying, "they know not what they do", and in the process the seed of the truth of God's Love and grace that spreads through the Gospel creates brethren who also bear the sins of others carrying their own cross in the Spirit of Christ. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Note that it's the dragon that wants to devour the Christ in Revelations, not God. Note that Satan accuses the brethren day and night before the Lord in heaven not God. Note that it is Satan that enters Judas to betray Jesus, not God. Note that God sent his servants to the husbandman in charge of His vineyard, to collect God's due and it was those in charge that beat them and killed them, not God. So also God sent His son and those in charge of the vineyard said let's kill him also and take his inheritance. God sent His son to the husbandman in charge, He didn't send His son to Himself to kill him.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
Your problem is that you interpret scripture according to your Reformist presuppositions. Jesus never addressed the Greeks - He said in other places in the Gospel books that He was sent to the Jews.

Preaching the Gospel by men, which is commanded to go forth to all men (not all types of men), in conjunction with the work of the Holy Spirit is an act of drawing all people to Christ.

But at least I’m trying to interpret scripture in context. I noticed that you didn’t address that.

And yes, Jesus never addressed the Greeks. That’s why He said that when lifted up, He’d draw all men to Himself. All men meaning Jews and Greeks, not every individual. Not every individual is drawn to Christ.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

childeye 2 said:
It was God's plan to destroy the works of Satan by allowing the spirit of Satan to crucify His son according to the law, knowing that His son being unjustly killed would through death take the keys of hell and death away from Satan, who had the power of death through condemnation under the law. But Jesus condemned sin in the flesh when he prayed for his for his crucifiers, and in the process the seed of God's Love that spreads through the Gospel creates brethren who also bear the sins of others carrying their own cross in the Spirit of Christ. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Note that it's the dragon that wants to devour the Christ in Revelations, not God. Note that Satan accuses the brethren day and night before the Lord in heaven not God. Note that it is Satan that enters Judas to betray Jesus, not God. Note that God sent his servants to the husbandman in charge of His vineyard, to collect God's due and it was those in charge that beat them and killed them, not God. So also God sent His son and those in charge of the vineyard said let's kill him also and take his inheritance. God sent His son to the husbandman in charge, He didn't send His son to Himself to kill him.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Jesus became sin for us.

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
Paul says that faith comes from hearing the word of God. That is why preaching of the gospel is so important. Although many are not inclined to do so, hearing the word of God is something anyone can choose to do.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Satan works to keep people from seeing the light of the gospel - which you can also think of as hearing the gospel

2 Cor 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Good Day, John

Not every one can hear:

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.

Only those who are "of" God hear... His sheep, the ones given to Him by the Father.

You are unable to choose that which you cannot (lack the ability) to do...

In Him,

Bill

childeye 2 · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
Jesus became sin for us.

He didn't turn into sin. He was a sinless sacrifice who submitted to the accusation that he was a sinner deserving of death when he submitted to the cross, which is why death had no power over him through the law, which is why he is the resurrection, which is how he destroys the works of Satan who had the power of death. Jesus now has the keys to hell and death.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
Your problem is that you interpret scripture according to your Reformist presuppositions to such a degree as you read things into the text that are not there.

In this case, Jesus never addressed the Greeks - He said in other places in the Gospel books that He was sent to the Jews.

We see God drawing all men to Jesus in this day. Preaching the Gospel, which is commanded to go forth to all men (not all types of men), in conjunction with the work of the Holy Spirit is an act of drawing all people to Christ. Not everyone responds positively according to John 3:18, the parable of the sower, and the parable of the Wedding Feast.

Good Day, John

How is the parable of the sower even Germaine Consider Jesus here:

To some it has been given to know... to others it has not been given.

Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

In Him,

Bill

John Mullally · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, John

Not every one can hear:

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.

Only those who are "of" God hear... His sheep, the ones given to Him by the Father.

You are unable to choose that which you cannot (lack the ability) to do...

In Him,

Bill

Here Jesus was speaking to those who knew what He was about and willfully rejected him. They were in a class of their own. Jesus warned them of being in danger of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

John 7:45 Then the officers came to the chief priests and Pharisees, who said to them, “Why have you not brought Him?” 46 The officers answered, “No man ever spoke like this Man!” 47 Then the Pharisees answered them, “Are you also deceived? 48Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? 49But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.” 50 Nicodemus (he who came to Jesus by night, being one of them) said to them, 51 “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?”

All sheep were once without God in this world.

John Mullally · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, John

How is the parable of the sower even Germaine Consider Jesus here:

To some it has been given to know... to others it has not been given.

Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

In Him,

Bill

We now have Christs explanation of the Parables. I believe that the Gospel was largely hid at that time to allow Christ's sacrifice to occur - He had to be rejected. We now have the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and other NT writers.

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
Here Jesus was speaking to those who knew what He was about and willfully rejected him. They were in a class of their own. Jesus warned them of being in danger of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Good Day, John

Indeed ... but the text is clear they lacked the ability to hear "cannot".

John 7:45 Then the officers came to the chief priests and Pharisees, who said to them, “Why have you not brought Him?” 46 The officers answered, “No man ever spoke like this Man!” 47 Then the Pharisees answered them, “Are you also deceived? 48Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? 49But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.” 50 Nicodemus (he who came to Jesus by night, being one of them) said to them, 51 “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?”

All sheep were once without God in this world.

I will remind you that shepherds gather sheep... sheep do not seek shepherds. We are "His" sheep he is the great shepherd , we have always been His and he calls us to Himself when he chooses and we listen (like sheep do) we can do no other, we know our shepherd and more importantly he know us and calls us by name.

Do not confused the temporary reality with the eternal purposes of God which can not be thwarted.

In Him,

Bill

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

childeye 2 said:
He didn't turn into sin. He was a sinless sacrifice who submitted to the accusation that he was a sinner deserving of death when he submitted to the cross, which is why death had no power over him through the law, which is why he is the resurrection, which is how he destroys the works of Satan who had the power of death. Jesus now has the keys to hell and death.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

I agree that sinners deserve death. That’s the wrath of God that we deserve. Jesus took that wrath for His people.

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
We now have Christs explanation of the Parables. I believe that the Gospel was largely hid at that time to allow Christ's sacrifice to occur - He had to be rejected. We now have the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and other NT writers.

Good Day, John

Does not change the fact of why Christ spoke in parables.... Which is the point I was trying to make.

Your appeal to other writers does not change the reason why Jesus spoke in parables... not what they mean but why he did so.

Some suggest that he did it so people would understand better... but clearly that is not inline with His own words.

In Him,

Bill

John Mullally · Aug 4, 2021

BBAS 64 said:
Do not confused the temporary reality with the eternal purposes of God which can not be thwarted.

In His Sovereignty, God gave Adam dominion on the earth. But you are saying that man does not even have the free will to make choices.

Joshua 24:14 Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; cast aside the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
In His Sovereignty, God gave Adam dominion on the earth. But you are saying that man does not even have the free will to make choices.

Joshua 24:14 Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; cast aside the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”

Good Day, John

Man does make choices freely yes... are those choices with out dependencies absolutely not.

Men love the darkness and will always choose the darkness they love over the light they hate, because their heart is full of wickedness.

Or of course if God himself with holds a choice form you (does not let you).

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

Then if you are unable to do some thing then you as a matter of fact can not do it no matter how much you will yourself to... or wish you could.

So men do make choices freely and are free to do so, but are indeed restrained by things they cannot and don't control.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
In His Sovereignty, God gave Adam dominion on the earth. But you are saying that man does not even have the free will to make choices.

Joshua 24:14 Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; cast aside the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”

Good Day, John

Did Jonah make a free-will choice freely not to go to Nineveh like God commanded him too?

Was it God's stated will (commanded) that he indeed go?

What do you think represented Jonah's greatest desire (because we can be sure God's did not change) after being spat on the beach by the whale.. Jump in the water or GO like you where told?

He went but did he do so freely? We do know in the end he was not to happy, but God did not seem to care about that one bit.

In Him,

Bill

childeye 2 · Aug 4, 2021

Hammster said:
I agree that sinners deserve death. That’s the wrath of God that we deserve. Jesus took that wrath for His people.

God's wrath is against those who change His Holy Image from the incorruptible God to an image like corruptible man.

I would never ever teach my children or anyone else that God wanted to strip them naked, beat them, flog them, scorn them, mock them, spit on them, nail them to a cross and watch them die a slow excruciating death in a public display of God's righteousness, but Jesus stepped in and took it instead. When I think of what kind of monster God is being portrayed as in this version/perversion of the Gospel. I wonder how God would feel about me preaching this image of him as a cruel and vindictive character who takes satisfaction in the worst imaginable payback.

Any reasoning that is based on something untrue ends in a contradiction:
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus is saying in this scripture that he could pray to his Father to stop those who come to crucify him and God would send more than twelve legions of angels. Your reasoning is saying that God would send Jesus twelve legions of angels to stop God.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

John Mullally said:
In His Sovereignty, God gave Adam dominion on the earth. But you are saying that man does not even have the free will to make choices.

Joshua 24:14 Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; cast aside the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”

It’s interesting that the choices Joshua gave them to follow were false gods.

Hammster · Aug 4, 2021

childeye 2 said:
God's wrath is against those who change His image from the incorruptible God to an image like corruptible man.
I would never ever teach my children or anyone else that God wanted to strip them naked, beat them, flog them, scorn them, mock them, spit on them, nail them to a cross and watch them die a slow excruciating death in a public display of God's righteousness, but Jesus stepped in and took it instead. When I think of what kind of monster God is being portrayed as in this version/perversion of the Gospel. I wonder how God would feel about me preaching this image of him as a cruel and vindictive character who takes satisfaction in the worst imaginable payback.

Any reasoning that is based on something untrue ends in a contradiction:
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus is saying in this scripture that he could pray to his Father to stop those who come to crucify him and God would send more than twelve legions of angels. Your reasoning is saying that God would send Jesus twelve legions of angels to stop God.

No it’s not.

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

God uses godless men to fulfill His plan.

John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

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