Eternal Security

fhansen

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There are many sincere Christians, who deeply love the Lord Jesus Christ, but do not understand this critical concept. And many of these would be very offended at the suggestion that this is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. But regardless of the opinions of anyone, this is indeed taught in the scriptures, and not only taught, but insisted upon as a basic and fundamental principle.

Many have the notion that after we die, there will be a trial held to see if we will be admitted to heaven, to see if we have been “good enough.” But this is a serious mistake. For the trial has already been held. And all have been already condemned. For the word of God plainly says that “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18) But there is a widespread second error, which is really only a modification of this error, that although we have already been saved by trusting Jesus, we need to do something to stay saved. The people who have been deceived by this idea fail to realize that they can no more deserve to stay saved, than they deserved to become saved in the first place. We need to realize that everything is based on the holy blood shed for us at Calvary. We need to consider the very words of Jesus, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” (John 5:24)

As one of the main groups that teach this error is the Catholic church, we will notice how the Bible version they currently approve renders this verse. “I tell you for certain that everyone who hears my message and has faith in the one who sent me has eternal life and will never be condemned. They have already gone from death to life.” (John 5:24, CEV) So again we see that even the Catholic Bible clearly teaches that, for the believer, as for the unbeliever, the trial has already been held. “Everyone” who has this faith “will never be condemned.” And why? Because “They have already gone from death to life.”

But we also need to notice the explicit wording of both of these translations, that whoever believes “has” an unending life. The Greek word here translated has is echei. (a form of word number 2192 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) It indicates present possession, not future possession. That is, the meaning is that whoever hears the words of Jesus and believes in Him that sent Him, already has life. And this life will never end. That is the real, literal, meaning of the Greek words used in this passage. And then, this is reinforced with the promise that such a person will never be condemned.

But we need to consider the basic meaning of the words “everlasting life,” as rendered in the first translation above, or “eternal life,” as rendered in the other. In this regard, we need to realize that a life that has been lost was never “everlasting,” or “eternal.” For by its very definition, such a life cannot ever end. “Everlasting life,” or “eternal life,” neither means nor implies a life that has the potential to last for ever. Instead, it means a life that cannot be lost. And that is what Jesus meant when He said, “as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:14-16)

Again, Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” (John 10:27-28) The word “never” in this promise is so strongly stated that in the Greek, it took five words to say it. This one English word is a translation of the Greek words ou me and eis ton aiona, which literally translate as absolutely not - for ever. (In the Greek, the word translated perish is between these clauses.) That is, the Greek text literally says absolutely not perish for ever.

In examining this all important doctrine, we need to consider Abraham. We read in Hebrews 6:13-14, “For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, ‘Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.’” This unconditional promise was made to Abraham in Genesis 22:17. But it was more than just a promise. For we are told that God “confirmed it by an oath.” Why did He do this? “For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.” (Hebrews 6:16-18)

God’s counsel is immutable. It cannot be changed. When He has made a promise, that promise will most certainly be kept. He wants us to understand this. So He showed it through His promise to Abraham. But He was not satisfied with simply showing it. He wanted to show it “more abundantly.” So He used man’s custom of confirming the promise by an oath. Men swear by something greater than themselves. But there is nothing greater than God. So He swore by Himself. Why did He do this? “That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation.”

How did “we” get into the picture. The promise, and the oath, made to Abraham, was made so that “we might have strong consolation.” But who is the “we” here? It is those of us “who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast” and it “enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us.” (Hebrews 6:18-19)

Thus we see that this promise and oath, made to Abraham, was not for his sake alone. It was also to teach us a lesson. And what was the lesson? God will most assuredly keep His word. What He has promised He will certainly perform. But why does God make such a strong point of this? We learn this in Galatians 3:15-20:

“Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ as of many, but as of one, ‘And to your Seed,’ who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”

Here we see that the promise was stronger than the law. The Law could not annul the covenant, because that had already been made. But the covenant was not based on law. It was based on promise. Now promise and law are two very different concepts. Law is conditional, as in “If so-and-so, then such-and such.” But promise is unconditional, as in “I will do so-and-so.” In Galatians 3:15-20, as in Hebrews 6:13-19, our God stressed that His promises are unconditional.

We see this again in a promise made to David, and stressed by repeating it twice in scripture. So we first read: “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” (2 Samuel 7:12-16)

And then we also read concerning David, “My mercy I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall stand firm with him. His seed also I will make to endure forever, And his throne as the days of heaven. ‘If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.” (Psalm 89:28-34)

These two remarkable passages describe a promise made to David, and both of them expressly say that absolutely nothing will ever annul it. This promise is remarkable in that both of these two scriptures explicitly state that it cannot even be cancelled by sin.

In 2 Samuel 7, the wording is “If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you.” And in Psalm 89 the wording is: “If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.” And then He adds, “My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.”

In both of these passages God expressly says that sin, if it comes, will be dealt with. But the punishment will not be a cancellation of the promise. Then, in Psalm 89, God explains this by saying, “My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.”

But what does this mean for us? In Isaiah 55:1-3 we read: “Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price. Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance. Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you— The sure mercies of David.”

So “the sure mercies of David,” the absolutely unconditional promise made to David, which can never be annulled, even by sin, is now extended to whoever will come, whoever will hear.

Our God made absolutely unconditional promises to Abraham and to David. And He has taught us to apply the unconditional nature of these promises to ourselves. This is not a theory. It is not a conclusion drawn by logic from various passages of scripture. It is expressly stated in the Holy Scriptures. But why does God make such a point of applying these promises to ourselves? Because He has also made similar unconditional promises to us. These promises tell us that He will both save us and keep us. Even as the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write “I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.” (2 Timothy 1:12) And as He also inspired Jude to end his epistle with the wonderful words, “Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.” (Jude 1:24-25)

And this is why eternal security is a fundamental Christian doctrine. Because our security does not rest upon ourselves, or on anything we do, but upon our Lord Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice He made at Calvary. That is a firm foundation, which cannot be shaken. In comparison, all else is nothing but shifting sand.
It’s not just about believing in Him without understanding what that faith entails. Unless faith produces likeness to Him, we haven’t remained faithful at all, we haven’t remained in Him. Because if we do remain in Him, fruit will be produced.

Overcoming sin, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and visiting the sick and imprisoned, counseling the doubtful, spreading the good news about the love of God, having and expressing love of God and neighbor in general IOW. We need to do a “fruit-check” now and then. Then we know whether or not our faith is truly worth anything.
 
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Ceallaigh

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You made many assumptions about the meanings of a nimber of scriptures, without demonstrating that they actually meant what you daid. The reason you did not demonstrate that these scriptures had this meaning was that you cannot. For they do not mean what you claim they mean.

You're not the first to pick up on that.
 
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Ceallaigh

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It’s not just about believing in Him without understanding what that faith entails. Unless faith produces likeness to Him, we haven’t remained faithful at all, we haven’t remained in Him. Because if we do remain in Him, fruit will be produced.

Overcoming sin, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and visiting the sick and imprisoned, counseling the doubtful, spreading the good news about the love of God, having and expressing love of God and neighbor in general IOW. We need to do a “fruit-check” now and then. Then we know whether or not our faith is truly worth anything.

How many check mark boxes do we need to fill each month to have a reasonable hope we're keeping ourselves from going to hell? Is 20 enough?
 
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Matthew 25:21 says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter into the joy of His Lord. Obviously the Lord knows all things. He knows those who want to justify sin, and He knows those who want to strive to do what is right according to His Word.
 
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fhansen

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And THAT is why it is a denial of FUNDAMENTAL Christian doctrine.
No, it's not. And Gal 4:20 has nothing to do with eternal security. Justification, a free gift which makes us suitable for heaven in God's eyes, is, as with any gift, something that can be accepted, embraced, appreciated, and used for its intended purpose, or can be rejected, thrown away-at any point in time.

Justification is a state of being, which can be compromised and lost by living unjustly, opposing Gods will, failing to live by the Spirit, failing to remain in the vital communion with Him that we were made for. Returning to the law is one way this is done, which is a main concern of Paul's in Gal 4.
 
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fhansen

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How many check mark boxes do we need to fill each month to have a reasonable hope we're keeping ourselves from going to hell? Is 20 enough?
Turn the question around. How much bad fruit can we produce and still have a reasonable hope that we're keeping ourselves from going to hell. Is no amount of such fruit too much?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Matthew 25:21 says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter into the joy of His Lord. Obviously the Lord knows all things. He knows those who want to justify sin, and He knows those who want to strive to do what is right according to His Word.

I think that comprehensive and concise statement something most if not all of us can agree on. God knows our intentions and desires on a spiritual level.
 
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The reality is that we are all going to die and there will be a judgment (Hebrews 9:27). Another reality is that the Bible teaches that sin is separation from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62), unless we confess and forsake our sins (See: Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7). We know by Scripture in numerous places that God will not accept our justifying sin in some way. I believe that is what Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security makes an allowance for. Sin. But Jude 1:4 warns us against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Does your version of grace teach that? Paul says we have that we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Many Christians I talk with today think they can sin and still be saved on some level all because they have a belief in the finish work of the cross or a belief in Jesus alone as their Savior. This sounds like justifying sin. Did Jesus ever justify sin? Paul says we have the mind of Christ. So we cannot justify sin because Jesus did not do so.

Please keep in mind that the Bible says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says lets us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. For the purpose of this section of the forums, I will say that these verses are referring to how we must overcome and crucify those serious sins that the Bible clearly condemns (like hate, fornication, drunkenness, lying, coveting, idolatry, etc.). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). A believer who justifies sin and yet uses Eternal Security as a cover up for their sins is not going to make it into the Kingdom. We know this because Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM whoever works iniquity (sin) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).
 
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Ceallaigh

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Turn the question around. How much bad fruit can we produce and still have a reasonable hope that we're keeping ourselves from going to hell. Is no amount of such fruit too much?

So you're saying we are the ones keeping ourselves out of hell?
 
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Ceallaigh

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The reality is that we are all going to die and there will be a judgment (Hebrews 9:27). Another reality is that the Bible teaches that sin is separation from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62), unless we confess and forsake our sins (See: Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7). We know by Scripture in numerous places that God will not accept our justifying sin in some way. I believe that is what Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security makes an allowance for. Sin. But Jude 1:4 warns us against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Does your version of grace teach that? Paul says we have that we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Many Christians I talk with today think they can sin and still be saved on some level all because they have a belief in the finish work of the cross or a belief in Jesus alone as their Savior. This sounds like justifying sin. Did Jesus ever justify sin? Paul says we have the mind of Christ. So we cannot justify sin because Jesus did not do so.

Please keep in mind that the Bible says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says lets us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. For the purpose of this section of the forums, I will say that these verses are referring to how we must overcome and crucify those serious sins that the Bible clearly condemns (like hate, fornication, drunkenness, lying, coveting, idolatry, etc.). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). A believer who justifies sin and yet uses Eternal Security as a cover up for their sins is not going to make it into the Kingdom. We know this because Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM whoever works iniquity (sin) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Those I know of who believe in grace, do not believe in it as a license for immorality. More like a license to not try earning salvation through works. Those who purposely abuse grace would fall into an entirely different category. I think if someone were to post "being saved by grace means I get to sin wantonly and still be saved", then all your lengthy arguments would apply better. But so far I haven't seen that happen.
 
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fhansen

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So you're saying we are the ones keeping ourselves out of hell?
I'm saying sin can separate us from God all over again. And who's responsible for our sin? He doesn't cause it. The answer is that only in partnership or communion with God can we hope to overcome the sin that separates us from him. And that's why Jesus came.

Our first job is only to acknowledge our sinfulness and absolute helplessness in overcoming it on our own. And so enter fellowship with him by faith and then remain in that relationship
 
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Ceallaigh

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I'm saying sin can separate us from God all over again. And who's responsible for our sin? The answer is that only in partnership or communion with God can we hope to overcome the sin that separates us from him. And that's why Jesus came

What you basically said before was, we have to make sure we are producing enough good fruit by keeping track of how many good deeds we do. And I asked you how many good deeds per month does that come to? Do we have to do one or more of each thing you listed per month?

Overcoming sin, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and visiting the sick and imprisoned, counseling the doubtful, spreading the good news about the love of God, having and expressing love of God and neighbor in general IOW. We need to do a “fruit-check” now and then. Then we know whether or not our faith is truly worth anything.
 
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But we also need to notice the explicit wording of both of these translations, that whoever believes “has” an unending life. The Greek word here translated has is echei. (a form of word number 2192 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) It indicates present possession, not future possession. That is, the meaning is that whoever hears the words of Jesus and believes in Him that sent Him, already has life. And this life will never end. That is the real, literal, meaning of the Greek words used in this passage. And then, this is reinforced with the promise that such a person will never be condemned.

Bless you friend but the promise of these people having life and not coming into judgement is contingent upon hearing and believing Jesus’ words. So this doesn’t necessarily include anyone who heard His words and believed because some will believe only for a while and later they will fall away. So then this promise would not cover these individuals because they don’t continue to meet the requirements. We must abide in Christ in order to receive salvation. Jesus made this clear in John 15:1-7.
 
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To all:

My experience with Eternal Security folk is that they do justify sin on some level when push comes to shove (even when they will talk at another point in promoting holy living). For they don’t believe a Christian is out because of one serious sin that goes unconfessed and or not forsaken. Yet, we know Adam and Eve committed just one sin each and led to spiritual death. We know Ananias and Sapphira each died and were condemned for committing just one sin each.

The problem with Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security is that even if you say that we must live holy, each group defines that differently when the Bible clearly tells us about the various different serious sins that will condemn us if we do not confess and forsake them. It’s not just not murdering, not coveting, not lying, etc. but it is not loving God and others, too. We have to love the brethren. For he that does not love his brother is not of God according to 1 John 3:10. So if one fails to love their brother in this life (When they had opportunities to do so), they are not going to make it. This shows that Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security are simply false according to Scripture. God requires us to be holy and to be fruitful. To what degree? God does not say we need to be over abundantly in order to be saved. Matthew 25:21 simply says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter into the joy of His Lord. So we must be faithful over a few things in regards to being fruitful for God’s kingdom. It may not be a lot because we are faithful over a few things. So we do not need to be super stars. We just need to love God and love others and that involves doing and not just with our words alone.
 
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And this is why eternal security is a fundamental Christian doctrine. Because our security does not rest upon ourselves, or on anything we do, but upon our Lord Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice He made at Calvary. That is a firm foundation, which cannot be shaken. In comparison, all else is nothing but shifting sand.

This explanation surely seems to make sense when examined by the verses you quoted but how does it stand up to the rest of scripture? Say John 15:1-7 for example? Or 2 Timothy 2:11-13?
 
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To all:

My experience with Eternal Security folk is that they do justify sin on some level when push comes to shove (even when they will talk at another point in promoting holy living). For they don’t believe a Christian is out because of one serious sin that goes unconfessed and or not forsaken. Yet, we know Adam and Eve committed just one sin each and led to spiritual death. We know Ananias and Sapphira each died and were condemned for committing just one sin each.

The problem with Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security is that even if you say that we must live holy, each group defines that differently when the Bible clearly tells us about the various different serious sins that will condemn us if we do not confess and forsake them. It’s not just not murdering, not coveting, not lying, etc. but it is not loving God and others, too. We have to love the brethren. For he that does not love his brother is not of God according to 1 John 3:10. So if one fails to love their brother in this life (When they had opportunities to do so), they are not going to make it. This shows that Belief Alone-ism and or Eternal Security are simply false according to Scripture. God requires us to be holy and to be fruitful. To what degree? God does not say we need to be over abundantly in order to be saved. Matthew 25:21 simply says that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter into the joy of His Lord. So we must be faithful over a few things in regards to being fruitful for God’s kingdom. It may not be a lot because we are faithful over a few things. So we do not need to be super stars. We just need to love God and love others and that involves doing and not just with our words alone.

Bless you brother but personally I would say that our salvation is more contingent upon repentance not so much on refraining from sin but repenting from sin since we will all stumble.
 
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Who said "eternal security is a fundamental Christian doctrine"?

It didn’t become a doctrine until the 16th century. Even in the earliest church writings it is refuted as early as the first century by Clement and Iranaeus.
 
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The entire book of Galatians is dedicated to stressing this doctrine, and the Apostle, speaking at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, told those who were denying this doctrine, "I have doubts about you." (Galatians 4:20)

Teaching that a person can be lost after having received eternal life, is not only denying the basic and essential meaning of the words God used, it is also making our salvation out to rest, in part, on what WE do, instead of resting ENTIRELY on what JESUS did.

And THAT is why it is a denial of FUNDAMENTAL Christian doctrine.

I disagree based on what Paul said in Galatians 5:4.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Surely a person cannot receive eternal life who has been severed from Christ and fallen from grace.
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Bless you brother

May the Lord bless you even more abundantly, brother.

You said:
but personally I would say that our salvation is more contingent upon repentance not so much on refraining from sin but repenting from sin…

I really do wish it were as easy as you say but that is just not the reality of what I read in the Bible, brother. I do take that you mean “repent” as to mean: “seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over our sin or sins by way of prayer to Him.” This is how I see repentance if that is what you mean. But I think that if we do not forsake sin, and or overcome it at some point in our lives, then we are just paying lip service with no real intention of reforming or changing for the Lord. It would be like a man who cheats on his wife and tells her that he is sorry but he has no real intention of ever stopping or believing that he has the power to stop (even if he tried). This means he does not really love his wife and he loves his sin more than her. This needs to change for him, and only the Lord can heal his heart if he fights for it and He allows God to change His heart.

You said:
…since we will all stumble.

Only Modern Translations erroneously say that we all stumble in many ways in James 3:2.
The trusted Bible for hundreds of years (the KJB) says in James 3,

For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2) (KJB).​

So it says offend and not stumble. I notice this with Modern Translations. While I may use Modern Translations to help update the 1600’s English in the King James at times, they can at times push a gnostic belief because the gnostic’s denied the Incarnation and they denied the existence of sin or they denied the idea that sin will condemn their soul. James 3:2 is just one of many examples of Modern Translations pushing a gnostic belief.
 
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